M-like?

[Go-Kart]

So, I love the the Model M chassis. The layout, it's size, to me, the whole aesthetic is perfect. However, I do not have one on my desk regularly. This is mostly due to the key feel being too a little heavy for me over a whole day. I know Model Fs are a thing but I have never had the pleasure. However, that isn't preventing me from purchasing one as I know there's a very good chance I'd fall in love with the key feel; I'm willing to buy blind, so to speak. The primary thing that has prevented me from buying an F is the aesthetic! Nowhere near as good looking as a Model M, for me. Ms are the archetypal vintage keyboard in my mind, aesthetically at least.

So, I'm not familiar enough with IBMs catalogue but I know that most of my fellow DT members can reel off serial number ranges for all the Beamers, Fs, etc., ever made, let alone model numbers. So please, post pics of pretty (M-like) Model Fs? Or any other keyboards for that matter! Please help steer me in the direction of something sexy!

For reference, here's my first M, pre-restoration ...it was love at first sight.

Pre Resto M.jpg (3.41 MiB) Viewed 8900 times

[keyboardnoob]

The first, and probably the only one version of the F that comes to mind as close visually to the M and its layout is the F AT



There is of course the virtually identical F122 with the later M122, but as far as the classic M goes, I can't think of anything else.


You can have a look at Chyros's megareview of the F line:

One thing to note, which I am not sure whether it affects different models other than the XT, is the absurdly heavy spacebar.

[Muirium]

Noob is correct. (Sure you’re a noob?) Model F AT is the only one that really comes to mind. Not 100% M layout but the closest F gets. Stock…

F does let you play around with physical layout a bit, mind. There are unused sensors under many larger keys on the AT, letting you get quite creative with a custom controller. Here’s how I’ve rejiggered my AT:



Inverted T beats numpad for me. Besides, there’s room for both.

But the next level mod involves some drilling. See, IBM was already thinking of the M bottom row back when they designed the AT. It’s all there on the inside. ANSI mod:



My Kishsaver isn’t stock layout, either. I run mine HHKB style with split backspace and ANSI Return plus Shifts.



Couldn’t do all that on an M. Not even the shockingly modern bottom row, which is in fact stock! They had all the pieces in place all the way back then.

Anyway, if you’re a 60% cultist like me, do whatever it takes to get a Kishy. Ellipse’s F62s are meant to be pretty good, but you know the price; epic waiting list too. My OG is worth four figures now. Had offers to prove it.

But actually what I’d do in your F curious place is man an XT. The layout is really pretty bad. (Some people like it. They are wrong. They’re not as moddable as AT or Kishsaver. Hypersphere persevered with his but that’s about all you can do with the physical layout.) However, XTs are the most plentiful and affordable Fs out there. Go try one, to see if this F malarkey is even worth pursuing, first.

[Go-Kart]

Thanks for the input, guys. I forgot about Chyros's mega F showcase. One thing that I think I have identified about my aesthetic preferences is what is probably most easily described as "perceived squareness". The boards that appear to have less curves when looking front on appeal to me more. Unfortunately, this means that I favour those Fs that make up the "4704" range, i.e., the priciest/rarest. I'm not a fan of stepped keys either. I think this is another reason for me seeing all the Model F porn around and thinking that there were far more models than there actually was; a lot of what I see are modded, primarily with the stepped keys replaced.

I do like what you've done to your AT, Muir. Very useful looking nav mod. I'm due to start a new roll in two weeks and I'm not sure whether I'd favour such a nav or would prefer to focus on a more ideal num pad layout. For the past year working in financial services, I've been spoilt by my BFK's num pad layout and now really prefer having that num pad 0 right there under my thumb; no tucking it in under the first row!

BFK (3).jpg (1.67 MiB) Viewed 8756 times

The num pad is something I'm looking forward to using on this pup ...whenever I have time to do the work on it anyway.

Z-150 Main.jpg (1.78 MiB) Viewed 8756 times

I am a fan of the absurdity of F122s and am already familiar with using such a board (M122). I think both the XT and AT's chassis rounded top edges put me off them somewhat. Obtaining an F107 would be excellent. Though I am likely being too picky. I likely should heed the advise and pick up an XT to see whether they're for me before going deeper down this rabbit hole.

You're Kish is pretty Muir. And I would entertain the idea of one of the repros too. Particularly considering a HHKB layout. However, I'm thinking of this as a work keyboard. Data entry will likely feature heavily. Having a primary layer nav and num pad is all my chimp brain would be able to handle for now. Second board on my desk will almost certainly be a HHKB though for operating my personal computer - I have spent too much time away from that wee beast.

[Muirium]

Ah, you really need a numpad, eh? I’d likely settle for no less myself, if prolonged number entry were a part of my routine. And if I did, it’d be one of these beside my HHKB.



Actually, Khers’ red and white look is very nice.



As far as numpads go, this is it, far as I’m concerned. Got your tab, your single key cut/copy/paste, and intelligent jumpers on the back to select the defaults. Topre done it nice.

So, how does the M122 layout really strike you? Because, putting aside the regular Model M conceit of this thread, the F122 is an all time classic keyboard. I just never mentioned it because the question ruled it out of mind.

[bhtooefr]

One thing I'll note about the 122s... they're really stretching the Model F mechanical design beyond what it was really meant to do, and key feel (especially near the center) is degraded unless you do a bolt mod (which IIRC is significantly more involved and riskier than it is on a Model M).

Additionally, there's the problem that F 122s are needed for the terminals they attach to, so using one for modern computer use has issues with potentially depriving people of keyboards needed to make a vintage machine work. (The F AT, on the other hand, while there is a risk of depriving someone of a keyboard to match their vintage machine, has no such risk of preventing them from using a vintage machine - any cheap, ultra-common PS/2 (and some USB) rubber dome can be trivially adapted.)

[Muirium]

Well, the F122 aficionados kept quiet about that! I’ve never had one (only XT, AT and Kishsaver*) so I can’t speak from first hand experience of a Model F that size.

*Briefly I had 4 Kishsavers. About ~$10k in today’s prices! And one accompanying Model F “numpad”, which went to Soarer along with his Kishsaver. The keys were blank on that ortholinear matrix board. Proper Model F feel, though, as I recall. Solid Zinc too. Maybe get one of them.



That’s the Kishsaver’s original layout, btw. Shows how I modified it. Certainly nice to have those options.

[keyboardnoob]

Well, the F122 aficionados kept quiet about that! I’ve never had one (only XT, AT and Kishsaver) so I can’t speak from first hand experience of a Model F that size.

Your definition of only buffles me.

But I do have to say that the keyfeel of the F is amazing if something horrible has not happened to the poor keyboard.
In my XT everything is perfect except of the spacebar, which has come off the stabilisers and is a whole operation to even attempt
to resit it, and one key which is the nastiest scratchy feeling I have ever experienced. Luckily it is one of the modifiers on the
right I tend to not use, but have mapped as a key in a function layer and is annoying at times.

I wasn't aware that an F (any version) actually required a bolt mod. I wouldn't risk it personally, also given the prices these could fetch.

[bhtooefr]

Well, the F122 aficionados kept quiet about that! I’ve never had one (only XT, AT and Kishsaver*) so I can’t speak from first hand experience of a Model F that size.

Essentially, the Model F only supports its bottom plate at the front and rear edges, IIRC. So, the 122 has a lot more depth unsupported other than by the strength of the plate... and the plate isn't any thicker, as far as I'm aware. Larger span, same thickness, more flex.

Contrast with a Model M, where the plate is supported in many places by heat stakes (or, after a bolt mod, bolts) throughout the keyboard area. And that'll be why people bolt mod them to get the rigidity that a Model M has (actually better at that point because you've got metal on both the top and bottom). (However, unlike a Model M, a bolt mod isn't a repair for failed heat stakes causing the board to lose rigidity compared to new, it's an actual modification to be more rigid than new.)

[thefarside]

One thing I'll note about the 122s... they're really stretching the Model F mechanical design beyond what it was really meant to do, and key feel (especially near the center) is degraded unless you do a bolt mod (which IIRC is significantly more involved and riskier than it is on a Model M).

I didn’t realize the key feel varied on the F122. I may reconsider buying one as I thought it would be like a F version of an M. I own an F AT and F77 repro and they mostly feel the same - I think the F77 feels and sounds better personally.

My recommendation would be an F AT or a repro F77 and if I had to pick between the two I’d go with the F77. The metal case and F switches are a perfect combination. I don’t like the big, heavy space bar on the F AT and am nervous to mod it to add the extra keys and M space bar, so I tend to use the F77 more.

[Muirium]

Aye. The Kishsaver blows the AT away. (Sold my XT as it never got a look in.) Metal cased Fs are the best. Just mighty costly now (mine was £110 I think ) and not at all like the Model M described in this thread’s premise.

[Go-Kart]

Ridiculous that you had four Kishies.

So, from the endorsement of those who've had the pleasure, I would certainly entertain a repro. Just spec'd one up now, it's not crazy money. Ellipse does have a few original IBM boards for sale up there too! Dangerous visiting that place! But still, I should likely tickle one first, so likely an XT to dip my tow in by the sounds of it.

I haven't actually started this new job yet and only have a vague idea of what I'll be doing so I may find I could get away with a repro F62 fully HHKB'd! If I do go down this path, it'll be a tough decision: beige or industrial grey...?

[fohat]

the 122 has a lot more depth unsupported other than by the strength of the plate

The extremely rigid internal assembly is supported directly in the extremely rigid bottom pan, metal-to-metal connections only.

The internal plates (plural) are curved, which adds greatly to their rigidity, and having turned-down edges helps also. Flanges and yokes, IBM went to great effort to ensure that their gear was solid.

[Rayndalf]

Take a look at the FeXT project. You can swap flippers and springs from an F into an M assembly with a custom PCB and controller and get a F that looks like an M.

[thefarside]

Take a look at the FeXT project. You can swap flippers and springs from an F into an M assembly with a custom PCB and controller and get a F that looks like an M.

I saw this project and got to the 7th page or so. It’s a very cool project! Can a Model F PCB still be ordered for. Model M?

[Go-Kart]

Take a look at the FeXT project. You can swap flippers and springs from an F into an M assembly with a custom PCB and controller and get a F that looks like an M.

Oh! This sounds very promising! Thanks for the tip!

[ironicmoustache]

So, from the endorsement of those who've had the pleasure, I would certainly entertain a repro. Just spec'd one up now, it's not crazy money. Ellipse does have a few original IBM boards for sale up there too! Dangerous visiting that place! But still, I should likely tickle one first, so likely an XT to dip my tow in by the sounds of it.

I went from a crusty XT to an F77; I'd long been interested in the F77 but it took a month or so of typing on the XT to convince me that the latter was worth the money. So dipping your toes in might be a good, if dangerous, idea...

My F77's switches are a bit lighter to type on than the XT I owned. Not disastrously so, especially since I do prefer slightly lighter switches, but it did feel subtly different (if definitely cut from the same cloth). Maybe the XT's rusted to hell springs had something to do with it?

[zrrion]

the switches in the center of my F122 don't feel significantly different from other switches in the board, but I have refoamed mine so that could play into it. I could see degraded foam being an issue, especially for a large F, but honestly similar issues would be present in even small Fs

[Muirium]

Ridiculous that you had four Kishies.

I was proxying them. Only one of the four—the youngest one: 1986 if memory serves—remains mine. Also bear in mind they didn't even work yet! Xwhatsit's very first Model F controller prototype went into my Kishy for a test run, where it's remained ever since.

Re: Model MF or whatever handle it's going by now. I'm still aboard! This boat is still sailing somewhere, right? Got an SSK, another Xwhatsit controller, and a harvested XT's worth of barrels and flippers set aside, just need the PCB to come back and I'm there. You know I'll be irredeemably proud to finally square the MF circle!

[Muirium]

the 122 has a lot more depth unsupported other than by the strength of the plate

The extremely rigid internal assembly is supported directly in the extremely rigid bottom pan, metal-to-metal connections only.

The internal plates (plural) are curved, which adds greatly to their rigidity, and having turned-down edges helps also. Flanges and yokes, IBM went to great effort to ensure that their gear was solid.

^ This. I've handled, I think, 5 XTs, 4 Kishsavers, 2 ATs and a Model F numpad, and none of them were loosey goosey in the least. Degraded foam makes the barrels wobble, but the plates themselves are always solid. I can't vouch for F122, which does stretch the design right enough. But I'd be surprised if IBM really were doing a lousy job of it. Remember: the 122 key terminal layout was no latecomer to F, it was designed with an F assembly in mind.

[Go-Kart]

Well, consider my toe dipped. Got an XT on the way. I'm also set to cushion mod my M once my final few parts arrive from Unicomp. It'll be interesting to see how close (or not!) my M gets to the F key feel. Close or not, lessen that final increase of force and changing the bottom out still sounds like it'll be worth the effort. Though, the more I hear from the few that have attempted the cushion mod, however positive the result, nothing may be worth that effort

[Go-Kart]

Well, the rumours are true ...Model Fs are great! Excellent key feel. Weighted just right for me. I was worried about the sound but there's enough thock and clack there to keep me happy. I'm also happy to report that XTs look better in person; I quite like the look of this thing! I still think the stepped keys are ugly but I haven't found them to hinder typing much. I even enjoy the layout.

Model F XT.jpg (3.31 MiB) Viewed 7825 times

Thank you to the seller that sold this to me. It arrived in the excellent, fully functional condition described. It was well packaged, a decent deal and was overall a pleasant experience from start to finish. I'm hoping that this will become my primary board for work. Surprisingly, the only thing that makes me doubt whether this will be the case in a few weeks time is the absence of lock lights! Faultlessly toggling the Num Lock is this week's challenge.

[Muirium]

Trying to find the obvious Star Wars quote to respond to this epiphany of ancient legend suddenly confirmed. Found this instead:

Spoiler:

Whatever happened to the cable? Your XT has a white/beige one, not black? Does the XT plug have the IBM logo embossed on it?

[Go-Kart]

I feared, since I wasn't bowled over by M key feel, the F's legendary status may be exaggerated. I'm pleased that my expectations were subverted!

Yes, the cable isn't original. Still a big old DIN. That IBM branded box (Soarers) was part of the deal with the seller. He also sent me a variety of other plates including a Cherry-branded one for use with different boards. I may have to get him to knock me up a Zenith one for whenever I get time to look at that Z-150!

[Muirium]

This one may make all too much sense if you ever replace the foam.

Spoiler:

Welcome to the true buckling spring. That’s the reason we’re so F’ing crazy.

[dcopellino]

This one may make all too much sense if you ever replace the foam.

Spoiler:

Welcome to the true buckling spring. That’s the reason we’re so F’ing crazy.

That's why I like to be here on IBMthority!

[TomTrev]

I feared, since I wasn't bowled over by M key feel, the F's legendary status may be exaggerated. I'm pleased that my expectations were subverted!

Yes, the cable isn't original. Still a big old DIN. That IBM branded box (Soarers) was part of the deal with the seller. He also sent me a variety of other plates including a Cherry-branded one for use with different boards. I may have to get him to knock me up a Zenith one for whenever I get time to look at that Z-150!

Did i not send a zenith one! I have that design already so hit the dm
Also! Foam will be good forever in that one

[Go-Kart]

I'm ashamed to say I still haven't opened the rest of the package! This is music to my ears! Thank you.

[Palatino]

Belated congratulations; welcome to the F-Club! Nice looking board and converter. What do you think to the ping? I bought some floss but never got round to using it, and now the sound has grown on me to the point I think I’ll just use the floss on my teeth

[Go-Kart]

Thank you my good sir! I was thinking I'd have to floss mod with the famous ping of these things but I find it more amusing than anything! I grin each time a strike a key! Plus, the thock is quite satisfying.

It'll be interesting to see how the sound and key feel stack up against my cushion modded M. Spoiler, Unicomp flippers are much easier to mod than that of IBM I'm going to post my findings on that "Ultimate M thread" once I'm done.