Noob asking for help

[NooB]

:::

[Muirium]

What you have heard is false/only applicable to Cherry MX keyboards. Generally DT is the least MX friendly place you could imagine. What brings you here? Want to be talked into something comprehensively different? It will be expensive! And probably older than you are, if you get a good one.

[NooB]

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[Muirium]

Good answers.

So you want something quiet and that’s good, out of the box? Everyone here knows what I’ll suggest! But I’m also guessing you want something under three figures. Cheap and good is hard. Sure you wouldn’t prefer truly eye wateringly expensive? I know that stuff!

[NooB]

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[Muirium]

Not bothered about clicky / tactile? Noted. How about looks? I’m guessing you want backlit keys because you haven’t yet discovered doubleshots and (better yet) dyesub caps?

Caps easily get pricier than keyboards, when you’re into them.

[NooB]

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[wobbled]

Can't go wrong with a TOFU65 KBD67 REV 2 assembled by KBDFans

https://kbdfans.com/collections/fully-a ... 2765754507

You can shop for pretty much any keycaps but here is an example of a set that will work with the above board.
https://kbdfans.com/collections/keycaps ... eycaps-set

That comes out to around £200 and it gives you the option to choose which switches you want. Stick to the Gateron red / black for linear, blue for clicky, or brown for tactile.

Of course I'd recommend a HHKB Pro 3 or a Topre Realforce board over this any day... but kbdfans let you customize the board to your liking.

[Muirium]

Lots of things in keyboards are about taste and tradeoffs. I prefer dyesub, big time, because I don’t like caps to go yellow (ABS plastic does this) and I’m more into nice legends than pretty colours. Doubleshot has trouble with legends (the symbols on the keys) while dyesub has trouble with colours (can only dyesub darker legends onto lighter keys). Swings and roundabouts aplenty!

Like Wobbled, I’d say get a Realforce and if that’s not you keyboarded for life, then explore the many realms of MX/Gateron/Alps switches. Or if you’re mad for click, get into vintage IBM. But no one’s forcing you.

[hellothere]

I like both modern and vintage keyboards, but my daily drivers are modern. Mu would want to lead you down the path of the HHKB (Happy Hacking Keyboard), from which there will be no return.

If you need RGB, it's going to be in a modern keyboard. I own one of these. It's available in QWERTZ, although it was sold out on the SteelSeries website, and it's available as a TKL (i.e. no numeric keypad). It was $179 US on the SteelSeries website.

I think this checks all your boxes.

The HHKB has switches made by a company called Topre. I own a different keyboard with the same switches and one from another company that makes a "clone" of the Topre switch. Both Topre and Niz make TKL keyboards with RGB and a variety of key weighting (i.e. how hard you have to mash down the key).

I really do like playing around with new key cap sets, so I've been neglecting my Apex Pro. I need to take that back out. I've also got a little das keyboard that could use some better looking caps ...

[dfischer429]

Not bothered about clicky / tactile? Noted. How about looks? I’m guessing you want backlit keys because you haven’t yet discovered doubleshots and (better yet) dyesub caps?

Caps easily get pricier than keyboards, when you’re into them.

Not to hijack this thread, but details on that board and caps?

[wobbled]

Knowing Mu it's probably the novatouch from his topre comparison video

I do wanna know how to get one of those DT Keys though

[NooB]

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[wobbled]

Good choice on the realforce!

The R2 series of realforce were only made in US & JP layouts

The older R1 series did have a 'Realforce 88u' which was ISO layout, they were made with UK, German, and Swedish layouts. But since they are discontinued, you'd have to browse ebay & mechmarket to see if you can track one down.

Personally I'd go with the R2 you linked on Amazon, or better yet start shopping for the newest Realfore R3 which is slowly making it's way into the UK (there's a couple appearing on ebay)

As for gaming, yes it's as good as any cherry mechanical keyboard as it has inherent N-Key rollover (you can press multiple keys at once) with the added benefit of it being a Topre Switch - my personal favourite for typing & gaming.

[LambdaCore]

Hi

I am new to this and it didn't go well so far. I just wanted a keyboard that's better than the extremely cheap one I had before. So I was told those "MX red" switches by Cherry were good. I am aware of the fact that the Cherry switches are part of the keyboards made by other brands as well. However, "Cherry" seemed kind of cool to me (I liked the logo and found their keyboards appealing) so I wanted to buy the "G80-3000 S TKL" (link: https://www.cherry-world.com/g80-3000-s-tkl.html ) because
- it has no numpad (so I can move it further to the right)
- not too expensive
- available as qwertz/German
- good reviews
- comes with "MX red silent" switches and I thought they would be a good choice because they are supposed to be good for gaming and the less I hear from the keyboard, the better, I thought (however, I do like the sound of some, it's just that I'm not too much into it)

I ended up buying a slightly different version by accident, G80-3000N RGB TKL [DE] black ("N" instead of "S"). They almost look the same. The "S" version seems to have one more key, between "ESC" and "F1".

So once the keyboard had finally arrived, my first impression was great (keep in mind I am new to this and can only compare it to a keyboard that's as bad as they get). Everything about it was fine, apart from one thing. It sounds terrible and different to the reviews (but the reviews were about the "S" version) and almost like when hitting a metal pipe. So I learned that sound was called "pinging" and I am not the only one who's not a fan of it.
I also learned a few things about pinging that were confusing to hear: (please correct me if I'm wrong)
- pinging is a general problem and may occur with any keyboard (wtf?)
- sometimes it can be fixed by desoldering, lubing, and resoldering every single key (which I am not willing to do), but sometimes that does not fix the problem either (wow, ok?!)
- for some reason mechanical keyboards are not available to be purchased pre-lubed by default (but it seems to be what everybody wants because it makes any keyboard better?)

Another extremely weird thing that I don't understand is that I can't even find the G80-3000 S TKL (the one people reviewed) within Europe (including the UK, which is where I reside). It almost seems like it is only available in Asian countries and therefore not as QWERTZ/German either.

I am now in the process of returning the "G80-3000N RGB TKL [DE] black" to get a refund. But I have no idea what to get now. It seems so difficult. It seems impossible to find the keyboard I originally wanted (G80-3000 S TKL as QWERZ/German layout) and from a seller that ships to the UK, and on top of that it might have the pinging problem again, from what I was told.

Is it really that hard to find the right keyboard? I am not willing to mod anything myself, but that shouldn't be a problem, I think.

Hope you guys can help, thank you!

Not a Cherry MX fan myself so I can't help you there, I've become a huge fan of Alps switches, and their linears sound insanely good imo if you want to start there, just watch out as some alps chassis are known for ping. Before I'd recommend you get a vintage keyboard, though, I do have to ask: do you still have a PS/2 port on your motherboard? It's fairly rare these days, though some still do (including mine!) and in that case you'd only need a cheap adapter for 5 pin din assuming it's an AT keyboard, otherwise you'd need to shell out for a converter.

Is the Topre one good for gaming? Is it better than that IBM Model M? Rapha uses the "Razer Deathstalker Chroma Alienware".

I have yet to receive the Topre board I got awhile ago, but I should get it in about two weeks.... something to keep in mind though: don't stress about gaming too much, for the majority of my time playing video games I was on a horrid bog standard rubber dome keyboard - for the past year I've been mostly gaming on my FK-2001 and my Unicomp Model M (same as an IBM model M for the most part) and I've done just fine for myself playing on mostly clicky/tactile keyboards with 2KRO. One thing I will add though, 2KRO guarantees two key presses, but which keys get blocked by what heavily depends on a keyboard by keyboard basis, and aren't the same even in the same series! I've had two FK-2001s for example, and the more recent Winkey FK-2001 had horrible rollover issues, while I can game all day on my Winkeyless 1989 FK-2001 without the slightest rollover issue, despite the fact that both are 2KRO and are in fact the same model, albeit different variation.

[JCMax]

I recently got a Realforce R2 with Topre 45g silent switches, and I have to say that when I take a keyboard to work...this is it. Another big reason for that is it's got a standard ANSI layout in case anybody else needs to type on it and with no learning curve like the HHKB's layout (Otherwise, I'd take that to work ).

Great typing experience and is quieter than some of the loud plastic cheap keyboards at work. Although, if you want to be able to read the legends I recommend getting it in white/ivory. The black keyboard has black legends on dark gray which is hard to read. Unless you're in well lit lighting conditions, you need to be a touch typist with that one.

[Muirium]

So, it’s time to introduce regional hardware layouts to the party. Let’s get nerdy!

European keyboards are ISO:


See those purple keys? Those are the ones which are different from other layouts. German works in this layout. So does French, Italian, Danish, Portuguese, and even UK English. The only difference between these languages is what caps to put onto the keyboard. The keyboard underneath remains the same.

QWERTZ really isn’t a thing to worry about, so long as you have an ISO keyboard.

But not so when you go ANSI, as used in America:


See the differences? You can’t even install a German set of caps on an ANSI keyboard without awkward compromises. ISO has one more key, but it also has a different shape of Return and Left Shift to spice things up. ANSI and ISO are the things to look out for more than Norwegian vs. Belgian.

[Muirium]

As for the pic above: it’s from the Round 5 thread. Beware: browsing that thread will hurt your wallet and your soul. They’re not easy to come by nowadays!*

viewtopic.php?f=62&t=10938

The keyboard itself is my ISO Novatouch, sold some years ago to Phinix. I kept the ANSI.

*I keep meaning to sell off my BIG box of almost the whole lot. At heart I’m a Topre/IBM guy so I very seldom use them. But I can’t be bothered with Brexit era international shipping. Especially for the motherlode!

[dfischer429]

As for the pic above: it’s from the Round 5 thread. Beware: browsing that thread will hurt your wallet and your soul. They’re not easy to come by nowadays!*

viewtopic.php?f=62&t=10938

The keyboard itself is my ISO Novatouch, sold some years ago to Phinix. I kept the ANSI.

*I keep meaning to sell off my BIG box of almost the whole lot. At heart I’m a Topre/IBM guy so I very seldom use them. But I can’t be bothered with Brexit era international shipping. Especially for the motherlode!

Of course...having just got into this hobby I'm realizing very quickly that anytime something truly catches my eye it's going to be a group buy I missed the party for, or vintage unobtanium everyone bought up the supply of 15 years ago.

[wobbled]

As for the pic above: it’s from the Round 5 thread. Beware: browsing that thread will hurt your wallet and your soul. They’re not easy to come by nowadays!*

viewtopic.php?f=62&t=10938

The keyboard itself is my ISO Novatouch, sold some years ago to Phinix. I kept the ANSI.

*I keep meaning to sell off my BIG box of almost the whole lot. At heart I’m a Topre/IBM guy so I very seldom use them. But I can’t be bothered with Brexit era international shipping. Especially for the motherlode!

Of course...having just got into this hobby I'm realizing very quickly that anytime something truly catches my eye it's going to be a group buy I missed the party for, or vintage unobtanium everyone bought up the supply of 15 years ago.

I know that feeling. I missed out on dirt cheap kishsavers, however I'm old enough to have been able to buy beamsprings at the £200-£300 mark. Now they go anywhere from 1-2k.

If you stick around long enough, no doubt you'll be here for the next big thing. The most recent example I can think of (at least in topre land) is the 25th anniversary HHKB and the blank white keycaps. Their resale value is already insane.

[kbdfr]

[…] So if you guys are telling me Cherry sucks […]

These guys are simply snobs - disparaging Cherry has become trendy, quite like hating Windows.
Like people in the hi-fi scene swearing only golden components can be satisfactory for a real sound experience.

Come on, guys, Noob doesn’t need your Maseratis and Lamborghinis, coming from a pedal-scooter he will be more than happy with a Golf.

[Seirin-Blu]

Generally DT is the least MX friendly place you could imagine.

I can’t decide if this is a good or a bad thing. Generally it keeps low effort posts out, but it does mean DT is waaaaaay less active than some other keyboard hubs. I do really love the user focus on vintage boards though. Y’all enable me to buy more.

[Muirium]

DT’s just not Reddit or wherever else. When people show off a recent purchase around here, it’s usually something ancient they’ve just worked hard to track down them clean up. Proper! Cheering on straightforward purchase / unboxings just isn’t the same.

As for the MX thing: here’s my own first post way back in 2013. I came here having read about “blues” for typing vs. “reds” for gaming too. It slowly dawned on me there was a hell of a lot more than just MX, and that’s Deskthority’s doing. Until that point it had never even entered my newb mind that anything besides Cherry still existed! I’m very glad it did.

[LambdaCore]

[…] So if you guys are telling me Cherry sucks […]

These guys are simply snobs - disparaging Cherry has become trendy, quite like hating Windows.
Like people in the hi-fi scene swearing only golden components can be satisfactory for a real sound experience.

Come on, guys, Noob doesn’t need your Maseratis and Lamborghinis, coming from a pedal-scooter he will be more than happy with a Golf.

I'd ordinarily agree, but if you're patient you can get far better vintage boards for around if not less than the price of your average Cherry board, if he doesn't mind clicky switches I'd *easily* recommend a Unicomp to start off with if his price range is in the 100 dollar range - hell my pristine FK-2001 with SKCM White Alps cost me about 70 bucks in total including shipping which is a lot cheaper than a lot of the MX offerings, and even if you don't like clicky switches in that instance Alps switches are extremely easy to linearize.

If OP is serious and wants something good on the cheaper end (about the 100 dollar range) go for a Focus board with Alps switches, or really any keyboard using alps switches Chyrosran HASN'T covered sky rocketing their prices lol any famous or popular boards will likely go up. I admit with my own first dip into vintage and Alps in general, 70 bucks for my FK-2001 was a steal in the condition it's in, but I've seen other decent listings on ebay for SKCM boards in the 50 dollar range as well in not horrible condition, give Deskthority's wiki a look and see what boards have what sorts of switches you want and then begin the hunt!

[Muirium]

If regular Cherry boards cost £20, I’d agree with Kbdfr. Trouble is Cherry MX will cost you. Maybe not “Maserati” money, but certainly “Audi”. Price them like the Nissan they are and we can agree!

But not on the trendy part. I started disliking them back when I got one. “This is the gold, silver and platinum standard? This is the alpha and omega and the whole wide world of ‘mechanical keyboards’? But why? It’s just not particularly good.”

I’d already been spoiled by my IBM XT. Crispy, crackly MX blue hadn’t a chance.

[wobbled]

Cherry switches can't even compete with their own clones anymore.

[hellothere]

Also wanted to mention that my Topre is a 45g Realforce R2 TKL. It's exceedingly great.

Cherry switches can't even compete with their own clones anymore.

Quoted for truth. I've used no-name Cherry MX clones that performed better. However, I have no opinion about the Speed switches, though, since I haven't tried them. I'm also leaving Kailh Box switches out of the equation, as I think their construction is different enough to be in a different category. And they're pretty good.

The problem with vintage is that you really need someone who's going to sell you an overhauled keyboard. That's somewhat rare on ebay. Which means I should ramp up production ...

[LambdaCore]

I've been meaning to try box switches at some point, those I admittedly cannot speak on. As for vintage boards, I think they're still worth using if they're in good condition assuming you have the right converters, getting a good condition alps board early on admittedly spoiled me on a lot of other boards though

[NooB]

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[LambdaCore]

You could always change the language set in Windows, the only downside is it won't match the keycap legends, but you're more likely than not already familiar with where everything generally is.