Why Doesn't Topre Make Double-shot Keycaps?

[JCMax]

Seriously, don't get me wrong. The dark-on-dark legend-for-keycap scheme has grown on me. But sometimes when I don't feel like touch typing or the lighting is low, I want to swap em'.

Does anyone know why Topre doesn't make double-shot keycaps to have white-on-dark legends? I think it is a missed opportunity for customization. It would be a lot more handy than just swapping out the stems.

[Lanrefni]

Dye sub is much much cheaper/easier and they aren't going to spend extra money they don't have to.

[Delta Research]

Dye sub is much much cheaper/easier and they aren't going to spend extra money they don't have to.

Agreeing with this, making the tooling for doubleshot is quite a bit more expensive and isn't as durable compared to dye-sub PBT.

[Polecat]

Dye sub is much much cheaper/easier and they aren't going to spend extra money they don't have to.

Agreeing with this, making the tooling for doubleshot is quite a bit more expensive and isn't as durable compared to dye-sub PBT.

Doubleshot not as durable as dyesub? The legends go all the way through; what could possibly be more durable than that?

[inozenz]

Dye sub is much much cheaper/easier and they aren't going to spend extra money they don't have to.

Agreeing with this, making the tooling for doubleshot is quite a bit more expensive and isn't as durable compared to dye-sub PBT.

Doubleshot not as durable as dyesub? The legends go all the way through; what could possibly be more durable than that?

Metal keycaps, boom!!!!

[Delta Research]

Dye sub is much much cheaper/easier and they aren't going to spend extra money they don't have to.

Agreeing with this, making the tooling for doubleshot is quite a bit more expensive and isn't as durable compared to dye-sub PBT.

Doubleshot not as durable as dyesub? The legends go all the way through; what could possibly be more durable than that?

Doubleshot is made out of ABS or a softer plastic than PBT, and tends to shine and lose it's texture far faster than PBT.

[Muirium]

Doubleshot not as durable as dyesub?

Correct!

The legends go all the way through; what could possibly be more durable than that?

PBT.

Another word for shine is erosion. ABS shines so fast because it's wearing away at quite a rate. Doubleshot legends do indeed "go all the way through" but the plastic in the background colour which surrounds the legends is itself quite thin. You can wear doubleshots through by shining / eroding that thin top layer of the background. I've seen some of this in actual keyboards where the A and E keys begin to lose their 'islands' in the glyphs, as the underlying legend body starts showing through the crater. It's ugly. You see it most on caps with clear legends, for backlighting. They can get ruined to blobs with a vengeance.

Of course, it's worse still when they're NOT doubleshots:



What can I say? I wear caps hard.

PBT meanwhile just erodes much slower. Going by the shine on my HHKB versus my ABS keyboards, I'd say something in the region of 10× slower, maybe more. I've never harmed a dyesub.

[Findecanor]

It is possible to doubleshot-mould PBT. There are some "Doubleshot PBT" sets available for Cherry MX but those aren't pure PBT but one shot of PBT and the other shot of a less durable plastic such as ABS.
Matt30 and GMK are working on proper doubleshot PBT (where both shots are PBT) for release next summer, but this process is apparently brand new.

But is it worth it though? While PBT isn't impervious to shine (it just takes more wear), I think the dye permeates a bit deeper than the grain on the keycap.

BTW, I've seen that kind of MacBook keyboard with even worse wear than in Muirium's picture.

[Muirium]

That’s my 2003 PowerBook. They’re doubtlessly lower quality since then.

I can understand going for double shots when wanting light legends on black keys. But double shots are totally inferior to dyesub when going for legends on pale keys. Dyesub gives you “tripleshot” and “quadruple shot” for free, by its very nature. And the resolution available for the lettering is very much higher. You can do a lot of fonts in dyesub which just will not work at all as injection moulded inlays. The molds simply will not permit certain curves, and therefore certain entire categories of typeface. Especially the sharp and meticulous ones I like!

Yes, I am a dyesub supremacist! I care about typography too much to settle for hokey “Gorton” style garbage.

[JCMax]

Matt30 and GMK are working on proper doubleshot PBT (where both shots are PBT) for release next summer, but this process is apparently brand new.

But is it worth it though? While PBT isn't impervious to shine (it just takes more wear), I think the dye permeates a bit deeper than the grain on the keycap.

If it would mean having a Topre keycap with light-on-dark legends... ...yeah! Even if it starts to shine, it might not wear-down as fast with something as durable as PBT.

If this new technique does get perfected, Topre probably won't be using it anytime soon. I got a feeling the cost would stop that.

[Polecat]

So...it comes down to shine versus the legends wearing off that defines "wear". I personally don't give a rat's ass about shine. I have little to no feeling left in my fingertips. But I'm not a touch typist, so if the legends wear off I'm dead in the water. I've probably never owned a set of dyesub caps, but I've worn the legends off of two or three sets of printed ones. I've never worn through a set of doubleshots, so that's where my money goes.

[JCMax]

Shine doesn't have to be a bad thing. You could say it as the mark of a broken-in key-cap! At least looking at it from the bright side!

[kbdfr]

[…] Doubleshot legends do indeed "go all the way through" but the plastic in the background colour which surrounds the legends is itself quite thin. You can wear doubleshots through by shining / eroding that thin top layer of the background. I've seen some of this in actual keyboards where the A and E keys begin to lose their 'islands' in the glyphs, as the underlying legend body starts showing through the crater.
[…]
What can I say? I wear caps hard.
[…]

In the last 30 years or so I've been using two different sets of doubleshot ABS Cherry keycaps, one accounting for some one third and the other one for some two thirds of the time - so 10 years of use for one and 20 years for the other. I professionally type several hours a day at least 5 days a week.and (sigh…) 48 to 50 weeks a year.

• The legends on both sets are as crisp and well-defined as when new.
• The caps themselves show absolutely no alteration of their shape, i.e. no wear.
• Shiny keys are like motor parts which are run-in after a while. They've lost their surface roughness, and that's it.
• If you actually feel key texture when typing, you just don't type fast enough

[Muirium]

It’s a skin thing as much as a plastic thing. I’ve worn through handlebars on bikes, and have blown out the heels on every pair of socks I’ve ever owned, after shockingly little time, no matter how thick or costly they are. Newton’s third law comes to mind: for every key cap being pressed, there is an equal and opposite finger doing the pressing.

And yes I feel the texture. I type pretty quick too, so it’s not just dawdling, the information comes just by jabbing at the key. Perhaps again a physiology thing. I’m super touchy when it comes to surfaces and fabrics because I sense them so much. Wool jumpers are like being cooked in popcorn!