Nothing about ergonomic (mechanical) keyboard ?

zet13

04 Mar 2011, 22:44

Hello I'm new to this board, and I see a lot about mechanical keyboard.
But as our primary input interface with a computer there is some improvement in the design such as Typematrix 2030
Image
wich is not mechanical (sic)

such as the old datadesk smartboartd http://www.datadesktech.com/desktop_sb.html

or such as the brand new truly ergonomic, with matrix oriented layout and mechanical switch
Image

If anyone is interested by discussing about ergonomic keyboard, not just mechanical ones, this thread is here :D

I personaly own a few boards : IBM model M, old kortex with cherry mx black switch, typematrix 2020, typematrix 2030 and a filco full board with brown switch.

PS : I'm french so please excuse my poor english.

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webwit
Wild Duck

04 Mar 2011, 23:35

I was the first to say this was a scam, see here (earlier and also). I do think he is trying to bring a keyboard to market (and eventually it may happen, or not, he is an amateur), but I also do think his business practices are completely unacceptable. Such as fabricating business addresses, reviews and production dates, repeatedly. Even if he does manage to produce them in the end, I'm not interested because of the way he does business and has communicated with plain lies. He does not get my money.

zet13

04 Mar 2011, 23:40

So you're saying there is little chance to see in the market the truly ergonomic. What a shame, I have a forum friend who bought it already and is waiting to get it now, hope I will get it someday though ^_^

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webwit
Wild Duck

04 Mar 2011, 23:44

The chance is not zero, because I do think he is trying to produce this keyboard (too bad he lied to people buying it that the money would be used for immediate production, he hasn't even ordered yet). Because if he was only after your money to run away, there are much better ways.

It's also a fail of an ergonomic keyboard despite its wild claims, since it is not split or adjustable, one size fits all. What is an ergonomic shoe of one size? A fail if it isn't your size. So this is mostly an exercise in marketing, looking to sell keyboards to people who like the sound of ergonomic, but who are alienated by real ergonomic keyboards. His price does not seem realistic considering the tooling costs.

Your opinion may vary though. I find the typematrix easily one of the worst keyboards in my collection and certainly not ergonomic in any way, unless your arms grow out of the center of your chest at 90 degrees and you like laptop keys.

zet13

05 Mar 2011, 13:54

Well we can discuss this matter a lot of time but what I can say :
1. I use the Typematrix everyday and I feel confortable on it and my arms don't come from my stomach at 90°, the matrix layout is really an improvement.
2. one size for all, yes but it's the case for 99.9% of all keyboard (indeed) and no one complain. The best should be split keyboard with matrix style and mechanical keyboard, if you finf one like this I will greatly appreciate.

The fact is : there an improvement for some people, for you it's the worst keyboard, but the matter is to discuss what is the best ergonomic board for everyone.

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sixty
Gasbag Guru

05 Mar 2011, 16:48

zet13 wrote: 2. one size for all, yes but it's the case for 99.9% of all keyboard (indeed) and no one complain. The best should be split keyboard with matrix style and mechanical keyboard, if you finf one like this I will greatly appreciate.
Hoggy's DIY solution is pretty close:
http://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=283

zet13

05 Mar 2011, 17:17

Indeed, it's a great idea in this thread :geek:

pzlate

06 Mar 2011, 05:24

I would get something like the UTRON

Image

Phaedrus2129

06 Mar 2011, 05:41

My KB-7061 is still up for sale. Typical ergonomic layout, white Alps, doubleshot keycaps.

zet13

06 Mar 2011, 18:00

If you mean this :
Image

then it's just a splitted keyboard, wich is a little improvement but it's most likely the microsoft natural keyboard 4000 :
Image

Ergonomic in the name but nor really in the facts since you still need 2 right hands to type on it.

Culinia

07 Mar 2011, 00:06

zet13 wrote:If you mean this :


then it's just a splitted keyboard, wich is a little improvement but it's most likely the microsoft natural keyboard 4000 :

Ergonomic in the name but nor really in the facts since you still need 2 right hands to type on it.
Not sure what you mean -- two right hands??

zet13

07 Mar 2011, 07:56

Like this :
Image

Culinia

07 Mar 2011, 21:35

zet13 wrote:Like this :
So that's why it feels out of place compared to my right hand. Thought it was in my head or because I am right-handed.

zet13

17 Mar 2011, 22:12

Of course there are some keyboards that give you a good placement of your hands on the boards, like maltron, utron, typematrix,truly ergonomic, some old nec keyboards (they exists but no one can find them)
for example the old ultra rare boards:
Image
(thanls to Mikael Le Fou for this picture)

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webwit
Wild Duck

17 Mar 2011, 22:29

Not sure who Mikael Le Fou is, but I found that picture here:
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/arti ... 3/ipsj.htm
through here:
http://www.sol.dti.ne.jp/~cdrcarco/

Both interesting web pages..

zet13

17 Mar 2011, 22:59

You are full of ressources webwit ^^

hoggy

18 Mar 2011, 22:57

Some amazing looking keyboards there. Nearly 30 years later - we seem to have made little headway.

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sixty
Gasbag Guru

18 Mar 2011, 23:08

Don't forget the world's first massmarket ergo keyboard:

Image

Not a fan though. I just never managed to get used to the layout.

tehpassenger

18 Mar 2011, 23:12

sixty wrote:Don't forget the world's first massmarket ergo keyboard:

Image

Not a fan though. I just never managed to get used to the layout.
Same here, it seems to feel very uncomfortable ... I would not be able to type on this :lol:

appie747

14 Apr 2011, 17:00

webwit wrote: It's also a fail of an ergonomic keyboard despite its wild claims, since it is not split or adjustable, one size fits all. What is an ergonomic shoe of one size? A fail if it isn't your size. So this is mostly an exercise in marketing, looking to sell keyboards to people who like the sound of ergonomic, but who are alienated by real ergonomic keyboards. His price does not seem realistic considering the tooling costs.
"one size fits all" you say is not ergonomic, so the Kinesis contoured is not ergonomic? Not much to adjust there. Keyboards where the split is adjustable (Freestyle, Goldtouch) still have a staggered (why?) key layout, so the angle of the hands/wrists is not optimal.
The TE seems to be a good compromise between a standard keyboard and 'freaky' ergonomic ones. I wish there was a company that would produce it!
I agree with you on the TypeMatrix, they should cut that one in half like de Kinesis Freestyle. A non staggered Freestyle would be my first choice, but with better switches.

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webwit
Wild Duck

14 Apr 2011, 17:06

Yes, a split Kinesis Countered where you can place, rotate and tild the two halves any way you like, would be much better. I like this keyboard, but obviously it is not optimal.

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webwit
Wild Duck

14 Apr 2011, 17:22

Now consider the Datahand.
datahand.jpg
datahand.jpg (123.62 KiB) Viewed 13643 times
1: Dial 1 moves left part of key area away or towards you
2: Dial 2 moves right part of key area away or towards you
1 + 2: you can rotate the area and move the complete key area away or towards you
3: Dial 3 moves the left part up or down
4: Dial 4 moves the right part up or down
3 + 4: you can tilt the key area and move the complete key area up or down
5: four multi-level adjustable feet (not visible)
6: I skipped 6 just to see if you are still paying attention
7: Adjustable distance between the two halves
8: Rotate left part any way you like
9: Rotate right part anyway you like

appie747

14 Apr 2011, 21:00

@Webwit: the Datahand is what I would call a "freaky" keyboard, if you can call it a board, so not really an alternative for the masses. So for me the TE design has certain good ergonomic features and good switches, without looking like something from Star Wars.
But the datahand is probably a great ergonomic tool, although very expensive.

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webwit
Wild Duck

14 Apr 2011, 21:27

Nah, if an alien would land or Charles Manson would be released, the Datahand would appear the logical device and your habitual standard keyboard a freaky device. You are lost, Sir. I advise a Microsoft Natural keyboard. Your neighbors might approve of it. It is hardly ergonomic, but exactly aimed at the kinds of persons who want unergonomic keyboards labelled as ergonomic as long as they can wrap their head around it, and willing to pay for such a visual yet non-solution. There is a whole market out there for people who want an ergonomic keyboard but don't want an ergonomic keyboard.

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7bit

14 Apr 2011, 21:48

webwit wrote:Now consider the Datahand.
datahand.jpg
...
6: I skipped 6 just to see if you are still paying attention
...
I doubt I will ever like the Datahand. I'm quite sure that it is the ideal tool for a true touch-typist who just writes plain text.

I count only around 50 'keys' on the Datahand. How is programming going?[1]

------------
[1] Given it is not COBOL!

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webwit
Wild Duck

14 Apr 2011, 21:53

Programming goes better than a regular keyboard. Clearly there were some nerds at datahand or as early datahand users. What makes you think it is a problem?

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7bit

14 Apr 2011, 22:07

webwit wrote:Programming goes better than a regular keyboard. Clearly there were some nerds at datahand or as early datahand users. What makes you think it is a problem?
Well, going by the image you posted, it looks like that you need to hit more than one modifier to reach keys like () {} [] <> or ; : ~!@#$%^&* etc.
Are there different shift keys to reach these symbols?
Last edited by 7bit on 14 Apr 2011, 23:02, edited 1 time in total.

Findecanor

14 Apr 2011, 22:18

I think that Microsoft's other "ergonomic" keyboards that are just curved and not split are worse than their "Natural" keyboard, because the curve is completely wrong. It moves keys longer away from the fingers, instead of closer to them as they should be.

I found a design patent (first match) the other day for a keyboard that has the keys for each hand curved around the hand -- as they should be. I wonder if this design ever went into production. It is only somewhat staggered, but symmetrically.
The search results page (you can not link directly to a patent on Google patents) shows also that Smartfish's design patent for their "ergo" keyboard cites this one, but apparently, Smartfish did not learn anything from it ... :roll:

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webwit
Wild Duck

14 Apr 2011, 22:51

7bit wrote:
webwit wrote:Programming goes better than a regular keyboard. Clearly there were some nerds at datahand or as early datahand users. What makes you think it is a problem?
Well, going by the image you posted, it looks like that you need to hit morethan one modifier to reach keys like () {} [] <> or ; : ~!@#$%^&* etc.
Are there different shift keys to reach these symbols?
Yes, but remember your thumbs are on the modifiers with no travel. Think cursor keys on a special HHKB with your thumb always on the Fn key. It's faster if you can get used to it.

User avatar
7bit

14 Apr 2011, 23:15

webwit wrote:
7bit wrote:
webwit wrote:Programming goes better than a regular keyboard. Clearly there were some nerds at datahand or as early datahand users. What makes you think it is a problem?
Well, going by the image you posted, it looks like that you need to hit morethan one modifier to reach keys like () {} [] <> or ; : ~!@#$%^&* etc.
Are there different shift keys to reach these symbols?
Yes, but remember your thumbs are on the modifiers with no travel. Think cursor keys on a special HHKB with your thumb always on the Fn key. It's faster if you can get used to it.
Well, then there is only one argument against it left:
$995.00 plus shipping, plus taxes! :shock:

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