The Oracle Answers

[scottc]

Works for me! I also agree...

[urlwolf]

Oh mighty Oracle:
Why do modifier keys have to be as heavy/clicky as the rest? They do not have the same usage. Something like MX reds for all modifiers would make some sense.
Why do space bars have heavier switches? They are the most frequent key.

I'm getting a matias ergo pro, and an ergodox. Typing on a maltron with vintage blacks now. Which switch do you recommend for the ergodox?

[chzel]

Why do space bars have heavier switches? They are the most frequent key.

The spacebar's cap is a fair bit heavier than the others, so a heavier switch helps keep the feel consistent.

[Muirium]

Nah. Even spacebars don't weigh enough to be the difference. It's because they're meant for thumbs, which are stronger, and typically rest on that great long key.

And tradition. Try pressing the spacebar on a mechanical typewriter. Keyboards are forever shackled to their long forgotten ancestors.

[chzel]

Are you sure?
My Cherry DS 7u spacebar registers 7g on my kitchen scale, while 1u register as 0g. So there you have it. Spacebars either don't exist, or are infinitely heavier than 1u caps. So I must be right...

[Muirium]

Try weighing more spacebars! Seriously, though, you could get a better number for your 1u caps if you weighed a large number simultaneously and then divided the result.

I guess I could weigh all my Round 5 spacebars at once…

[Linkert]

Trying to get some (similar) colour codes that match the blue found on the Triumph Adler keycap legends (Olivetti?).

Working on a Svdvorak/Svorak-layout (haven't decided which yet), featuring the Neue Haas Unica typeface, ISO
http://www.monotype.com/libraries/neue-haas-unica/

Thing is, I'm sending the layout out to WASD-keyboards and I'm not very confident the colours will come out right. What's your experience been like concerning colour coming out right through wasdkeyboards?

[zslane]

If you use PANTONE Coated color codes, the legend text should be very close. Can't say which PANTONE blue matches the original Triumph Adler legends, but any reasonably bright medium blue should do the trick.

[chzel]

Seriously, though, you could get a better number for your 1u caps if you weighed a large number simultaneously and then divided the result.

I know..I was really bored at the time to take an actual meaningful measurement!

[Ray]

So when I got here, I wanted to build a board for myself. Did it with MX because everyone does. Chose Black because I got a cheap donor.
But I don't like my MX black. They are too heavy to type for me. And I guess I also don't like linear. Not sure if I would be okay with lighter linears like reds...
Also I don't like Blues, mostly for their high pitched sound.
I like the sound of my Model M, but again it is too heavy to type. Two sentences are fun, but it gets uncomfortable after that.

So I tried Browns at a local shop today on a G710+. Some switches were okay, but some felt horrible. Wasn't sure if it was tactile feedback or just really scratchy. Maybe that keyboard just got abused a lot in the shop, but it felt really horrible because it was so scratchy and different switches felt different.
So my question to the oracle: Shall I give MX another try and buy a brown donor board from 7bit, or shall I move on to Alps?

[Muirium]

Alps? Now there's a tricky journey. Haven't you heard of the Alps Vortex of doom, indecision and despair?

How about some more detail on what you think you want, rather than just what you've tried and don't.

[Ray]

Well, that's a good question. If I knew what I want, I wouldn't ask.
Before I came here, and even now, my daily driver is the scissor over dome keyboard of my dell laptop. There's better than it, but I am so used to it and it gets its job done. It especially has a great palmrest.

So I prefer short travel bottoming out to the linear, relatively long travel MX. ML are PCB mount only, otherwise I would give it a try with my next prototype directly.
If I have to go with “long” travel, I prefer feedback. I would even say I like the better selection of rubberdomes more than linears. If the feel is the same, I would take tactile over clicky.
On the actuation force side of things, I want something lighter than MX black or even Model M Buckling Spring.

At one point I was thinkin about making a split 60% out of two Laptop scissors switch boards. But that would leave me with standard stagger, which I want to avoid. I want modular switches and they have to be platemountable.

[urlwolf]

@ray, maybe you'll like clears?

[Muirium]

Safe to say, I think you'll hate clears. Those guys take a pounding. Eventually, some say, you can adapt to them and learn never to bottom out. Some say. I just can't get past the nasty, fake, trapdoor MX tactile bump. Keep it away from me!

Limiting yourself to modular switches and custom boards is a recipe for awkward compromises. I suggest trying some diverse boards and finding what you like before you go ahead and make it. You're in Europe. You could join 002's Topre Realforce tour. That's by far my favourite light switch.

http://deskthority.net/try-f29/the-real ... 10148.html

Now, before you rightly protest: you can't make Topre customs! Try it anyway. It'll be an informative reference point for whatever else you explore. And there are other boards you might like in the Try Before You Buy section, including the Matias Ergo Pro. That one would give you a taste of modern Alps.

[urlwolf]

Why do ergo keyboards often use browns? I just switched to blues and it seems to be working better for my hands!

[Ray]

@urwolf
Hm, why would I like clears over browns, when blacks are too heavy for me?
Ergo clears requires fumbling around with the switches. I would be okay with that if I could assume the end result is fine for me :/
From the short use of MX blues I had, they felt not bad at all. I just don't like their sound. But I've seen youtube videos deal with that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWyNn2wZCxs

@µ
The reason I won't join the Realforce tour: I might like it!
Which would then make me either spend more on a keyboard than I want to. Or makes me compare every modular switch to topre and not be satisfied with it.

The Ergo Pro on the other hand; I already thought about joining the tour, and I don't know why I didn't already. It will be interesting for different tilting and tenting angles in addition to trying out Matias switches.

[Dan]

So I prefer short travel bottoming out to the linear, relatively long travel MX.

Have you tried o-rings? Or, if you have the patience to open all the switches, you could try putting a little bit of rubber string (like 1mm or so, cut from an o-ring) in the tube of the mx switch lower housing (i think it's called the "Trampoline Mod" ). I never tried this mod, but to me it seems better than the o-rings. This way you can adjust the exact travel distance you want, among other things...

[gogusrl]

You can also get this : http://imsto.cn/index.php?route=product ... duct_id=88

[Ray]

Thanks for the input. I don't have a problem with the clack nor with bottoming out in general. But with long travel without feedback, so it might change the keyfeel positively for me. I'll give it a try when I got time.

[OleVoip]

Interestingly, there is even a 1992 patent on that kind of dampening,

where #22 is the silicone bead. However, I'd rather advise to use a tactile switch and have your fingers learn not to bottom out. I see that this is difficult to learn if your daily driver is that scissor-switch keyboard that requires you to bottom out. The whole point of long key travel is that it allows you to type as if there was no bottom. (Meaning to say, if you don't feel the bottom anymore, your fingers stop trying to reach it and they relax.)
edit:It helped me a lot to pretend the keys were piano keys. The first thing you learn at the piano is that the tone is not made by driving the keys into the keybed.

[Muirium]

The whole point of long key travel is that it allows you to type as if there was no bottom. (Meaning to say, if you don't feel the bottom anymore, your fingers stop trying to reach it and they relax.)

That there is the key to all good mechanical keyboards!

It helped me a lot to pretend the keys were piano keys. The first thing you learn at the piano is that the tone is not made by driving the keys into the keybed.

I often talk of "swing" in particular switch families that I like. Specifically in Topre, and IBM's ancient but legendary beam spring. Those have a sensation of momentum to them that MX and Alps lack completely. It is much like a piano. You can almost tickle the keys into typing fast! Topre has the additional advantage of a nice soft landing for when you do bottom out. It's a thoroughly elegant switch.

I used to prize short travel too, coming from laptop keyboards like my old PowerBook. (Before they all went chiclet.) My brother's still the same way: doesn't care for my mechs, despite the fact he finds he types damn well quick on them. Longer travel — with activation long before the bottom! — is a real adjustment for everyone used to hammering keys home. And nowadays, that is everyone…

[Ray]

okay, you made take out my Model M again; compaired it to my homemade with mx blacks, with emphasis on bottoming out.
I cannot avoid the bottom on the M, but that's mainly because with actuation the keycap drops some and after that there is less than 1mm left to the bottom. I hit the bottom with less force than is required for actuation though. I drop some letters because my left pinky doesnt want to press that hard. I would still like the switch if it was lighter - and if the keyboard was tented...
On the MX black it is kinda easy not to bottom out if I take my time. If I go faster I drop some random keys and bottom out at times, so nothing special there from my expectations. I would prefer some feedback on the actuation. And less force required.

[gogusrl]

I love mx blacks, it's like typing on small boobs. I know the switch actuated because it starts pushing back. I think I'd enjoy a keyboard full of grays because right now I bottom out sometimes if I go full speed.

[zslane]

I love the feel of DSAs on MX reds. I have a Filco MT-2 with MX blacks just waiting for some SA caps.

Topre switches are very nice, and I think I could really get into NovaTouch switches, but they need to come out with a full ANSI board before I'll climb onto that bandwagon.

[Muirium]

Model M is, despite its reputation, the cheapest and crappiest form of buckling spring. It really needs lightening up, but IBM's engineers couldn't pull that off with a membrane. Model F, its ancestor, is lighter and sharper and much better as a switch. One of my several favourites. But tricky, what with being vintage.

[urlwolf]

Nobody answers whether there's an ergonomic advantage to cherry browns, as most ergo keyboards seem to have those by default. Nobody knows?

[scottc]

Model M is, despite its reputation, the cheapest and crappiest form of buckling spring. It really needs lightening up, but IBM's engineers couldn't pull that off with a membrane. Model F, its ancestor, is lighter and sharper and much better as a switch. One of my several favourites. But tricky, what with being vintage.

Don't forget its younger, thinner, but less attractive brother: the Model M2.

[Muirium]

Good catch. I don't mind the M2 so much. It's not so much worse than the regular Model M. But obviously no closer to the F.


@urlwolf: There's a marketing advantage to MX browns. They're sold as the default, middle of the road, play it safe, MX switch. The ergo guys are always worried about putting off potential customers (so few people even consider ergos) and they probably reckon MX blues are unacceptable in office environments.

Similarly, Matias went for his quiet switch in the Ergo Pro:

http://deskthority.net/review-f45/split ... 10996.html

[Ray]

whether there's an ergonomic advantage to cherry browns

Ergonimic advantage over what? I can see arguments of browns being more ergonomic than the heavier switches black and clear.

And from the remaining red, brown and blue, i guess Muirium is right about middle of the road and potential customers.

[kbdfr]

Not sure what is supposed to be per se more ergonomic to a lighter switch.
If one keeps activating switches by just having his fingers resting on the caps, then a heavier switch is more ergonomic.