Recreating the Lisp keyboard

[Findecanor]

I just want to point out something about the layout diagram. That layout does not follow QWERTY staggering. The staggering between the home row and the row below it on a standard QWERTY keyboard is 1/2 key, not 1/4 key.

Anyway, if this was intentional, then I applaud you. QWERTY's 1/2 - 1/4 - 1/2 staggering is weird and unergonomic, and should be abolished in the long run. It sort of works only if the alphanumeric keys are a bit to the left. 1/2 - 1/4 - 1/4 would be better for a keyboard such as this where the alphanumeric keys are in the centre.

One PCB per key.

This PCB should hold only:

• one keyswitch.
  the cheapest available low-pin-count microcontroller (for instance, the PIC10F200, which comes in SOT-23 packaging!)
  two small connectors for daisy chaining (simple one or two-wire bus)
  two or more screw holes for anchoring to the baseplate.

With one PCB per key, you won't need a µC on each key. You need only a diode and holes so that you can solder jumpers to connect the PCB to its four neighbours -- which would also become the key's neighbours in the matrix. Then work out the matrix in software. Even with one µC per PCB, you would still have needed a central master controller.

I think that one PCB per key could become quite costly. There is a cost in handling a PCB, no matter which size it has.

For the Symbolics/Space Cadet keyboard, because it is so symmetric, if the total size of the PCB is a problem, I think that you could also design it to use two identical PCBs: one left and one right, rotated 180° to each other and meeting in the middle. That would require either standard QWERTY 1/2 - 1/4 - 1/2 staggering, or a uniform 1/4 - 1/4 - 1/4 staggering.

[asciilifeform]

On second thought, the daisy chaining and microcontroller are optional.
Given four connectors rather than two, the single-key PCBs can be arranged in the traditional scanned matrix.
The only active component is then a diode.

Also, you can skip the mounting holes on the PCB, and use panel-mount Cherry switches.

[7bit]

I just want to point out something about the layout diagram. That layout does not follow QWERTY staggering. The staggering between the home row and the row below it on a standard QWERTY keyboard is 1/2 key, not 1/4 key.

Anyway, if this was intentional, then I applaud you. QWERTY's 1/2 - 1/4 - 1/2 staggering is weird and unergonomic, and should be abolished in the long run. It sort of works only if the alphanumeric keys are a bit to the left. 1/2 - 1/4 - 1/4 would be better for a keyboard such as this where the alphanumeric keys are in the centre.

Thanks foir the applause!

Yes it was intetiously, because it is easier this way to embed the cursor block in the right corner. The HHKB follows this scheme as well.

One PCB per key.

This PCB should hold only:

• one keyswitch.
  the cheapest available low-pin-count microcontroller (for instance, the PIC10F200, which comes in SOT-23 packaging!)
  two small connectors for daisy chaining (simple one or two-wire bus)
  two or more screw holes for anchoring to the baseplate.

With one PCB per key, you won't need a µC on each key. You need only a diode and holes so that you can solder jumpers to connect the PCB to its four neighbours -- which would also become the key's neighbours in the matrix. Then work out the matrix in software. Even with one µC per PCB, you would still have needed a central master controller.

I think that one PCB per key could become quite costly. There is a cost in handling a PCB, no matter which size it has.

For the Symbolics/Space Cadet keyboard, because it is so symmetric, if the total size of the PCB is a problem, I think that you could also design it to use two identical PCBs: one left and one right, rotated 180° to each other and meeting in the middle. That would require either standard QWERTY 1/2 - 1/4 - 1/2 staggering, or a uniform 1/4 - 1/4 - 1/4 staggering.

Such a layout would be possible, except that your 180 degree rotation idea does not work.

BTW: I thought of the 1 PCB per key layout more as a joke.

[hans23]

My USB conversion for Symbolics keyboards uses the right-hand side modifier keys for arrows. If you want the real feel, get a lispm keyboard from Dave Smith, convert it to USB and then screw yourself forever

Conversion instructions are here: http://netzhansa.blogspot.com/2009/04/h ... board.html

[vsedach]

The KBC Poker design is ingenious! http://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=125 Thanks a lot for the link to Brian's case mod.

I'm definitely leaning to a Poker-style keyboard now. This cuts the parts and assembly to a minimum: one PCB and a single one-piece case. The Poker style case can also be easily made from a variety of materials with a variety of techniques. This will reduce the price of the keyboard substantially.

I thought about splitting the keyboard PCB into two parts; the problem I see there is alignment problems because of staggered keys. This wouldn't be a problem with a plate mount, but I think getting rid of the plate mount in favor of one large PCB Poker-style would more than make up in savings from simplified assembly.

[vsedach]

Also, feedback from the wait-list:
* Almost everyone wants clicky switches. Existing Symbolics keyboard owners complain about the linear switches.
* Cursor keys
* USB connector and Symbolics layout "out of the box" on any PC (this is where the keyboard controller becomes important)
* Swappable keycaps

[ts4z]

Has anyone built a keyboard from scratch (recently)? Looking at an old Qume VT420 knockoff keyboard I found, it looks like a single-sided PCB. I know that's a lot of holes with not a lot of room for error, but it still seems possible to make one? It might make a useful prototype.

According to Cherry's datasheet for the MX switches, they are available with diodes. I checked Mouser.com, and the diode flavors seem to be somewhat limited. Are these typically what are used in keyboards with NKRO? Is there a good source for them in sufficient quantity?

I apologize if any of these are newbie questions. I was very happy to discover this thread and am new to the forum.

[sixty]

Diodes in the keyswitch is what was usually used to get n-key rollover on older generation of keyboards. In more recent days, most manufacturers place the diodes on the PCB and just use keyswitches with a simple wirebridge, rather than diodes.

Assuming this project actually goes through, it will be much cheaper to order switches from Cherry directly. Their MOQ is pretty high though.

[7bit]

Diodes in the keyswitch is what was usually used to get n-key rollover on older generation of keyboards. In more recent days, most manufacturers place the diodes on the PCB and just use keyswitches with a simple wirebridge, rather than diodes.

Assuming this project actually goes through, it will be much cheaper to order switches from Cherry directly. Their MOQ is pretty high though.

Do you know how many switches the minimum are?

That with the diodes I've heard before from the manufacturer which gave me the price quote. They also told me that it is next to impossible to get switches other than blacks

[sixty]

Diodes in the keyswitch is what was usually used to get n-key rollover on older generation of keyboards. In more recent days, most manufacturers place the diodes on the PCB and just use keyswitches with a simple wirebridge, rather than diodes.

Assuming this project actually goes through, it will be much cheaper to order switches from Cherry directly. Their MOQ is pretty high though.

Do you know how many switches the minimum are?

That with the diodes I've heard before from the manufacturer which gave me the price quote. They also told me that it is next to impossible to get switches other than blacks

20,000 MOQ

[vsedach]

20,000 switches at 90 keys per keyboard comes out to 220 keyboards. Definitely not that many pre-orders yet, but I can probably sell the excess switches.

I was hoping to get switches with diodes in them. Having diodes on the PCB would mean having a ton of surface-mount components, which would raise PCB assembly costs. OTOH it may still be cheaper depending on switch costs.

Someone suggested an interesting idea: a compose key. I think that would be pretty useful. The same person also suggested Sun keyboard keys (Front, Stop, Again, Props). I'm not trying to build a Sun keyboard, but some of the Lisp Machine keys could serve a dual purpose as the Sun keys. That wouldn't cost anything or compromise the design of the keyboard, but now it can also be sold to Sun keyboard enthusiasts. Maybe if we get enough Sun keyboard enthusiasts we can round out a 200-keyboard run.

[7bit]

20,000 switches at 90 keys per keyboard comes out to 220 keyboards. Definitely not that many pre-orders yet, but I can probably sell the excess switches.

I was hoping to get switches with diodes in them. Having diodes on the PCB would mean having a ton of surface-mount components, which would raise PCB assembly costs. OTOH it may still be cheaper depending on switch costs.

Someone suggested an interesting idea: a compose key. I think that would be pretty useful. The same person also suggested Sun keyboard keys (Front, Stop, Again, Props). I'm not trying to build a Sun keyboard, but some of the Lisp Machine keys could serve a dual purpose as the Sun keys. That wouldn't cost anything or compromise the design of the keyboard, but now it can also be sold to Sun keyboard enthusiasts. Maybe if we get enough Sun keyboard enthusiasts we can round out a 200-keyboard run.

These things are done in software (ie the Computer)! I'm not sure how it works with the LED for the Compose key, but I;m quite sure it is not in the keyboard. Does anyone know more about that?

If we separate the middle part from those 6x2 sections left and right of the main keyboard, you can easily have something similar to Sun layout with a 6x2 panel on the left and 2 6x2 panels on the right.



Having typed on that keyboard some decades ago, I remember that the arrows never worked in any program I used.

[vsedach]

Haha, absolutely not! What I meant is adding labels on the side of the Square Circle Triangle keys with "Front, Stop, Props" written on them, or something like that.

The Compose key is done in software (you can map it on your keyboard right now, if you use X11), but it would be nice to have a label for it.

Also, I found this: http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6292 and http://www.humblehacker.com/keyboard/

THIS IS DEFINITELY 100% HAPPENING NOW, EVEN IF I HAVE TO ASSEMBLE EVERY KEYBOARD BY HAND.

[7bit]

Haha, absolutely not! What I meant is adding labels on the side of the Square Circle Triangle keys with "Front, Stop, Props" written on them, or something like that.

The Compose key is done in software (you can map it on your keyboard right now, if you use X11), but it would be nice to have a label for it.

Also, I found this: http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6292 and http://www.humblehacker.com/keyboard/

These lables can be done in Round 4 group buy!
They have nothing to do with the keyboard itself!

THIS IS DEFINITELY 100% HAPPENING NOW, EVEN IF I HAVE TO ASSEMBLE EVERY KEYBOARD BY HAND.

Great to read this, but what will be the layout now?

[ts4z]

Great to read this, but what will be the layout now?

I did some thinking about this and came up with the attachment here. (I mocked up the Symbolics keyboard the same way -- files at http://ts4z.net/kbd/ for comparison)

strawman layout

kbd-layout-strawman.png (32.56 KiB) Viewed 9443 times

Obviously, this isn't a recreation of the Symbolics keyboard, but many of the ideas are there. Hyper, Super, Meta, and Control are there. Rub Out and Control are the same size, in case flat keycaps are used and someone wants to swap them. There are unshifted parenthesis keys. Space bar is shrunk (to the size on my MacBook). I added arrow keys in the best location I could find. I added Scroll Lock because my KVM switches require it. I left out a lot of stuff on the right side to try and minimize the space between the keyboard and the mouse. I left space for the conventional backspace key, just in case, but I omitted the "backspace" key (not rubout) because I suspect that did not actually delete. Maybe add PC-style insert and delete keys.

On the other hand, the "help" key is pretty well covered by F1 on PCs and Linux boxes.

Anything in pink is available space.

If the "Local" key controlled the terminal, we could use Local for the same thing if the OS supported it -- play/next track/eject/brightness.

I left off a lot of stuff because I didn't understand it. Does anyone know what most of the keys on the Symbolics keyboard did? Are any worth trying to revive? (Do we need END, ABORT, SUSPEND, RESUME...?)

I wouldn't mind having some of the Sun type 4/5 keys, but I never really knew what any of them were for, even when I had one on my desk. The arrow keys mostly worked when I had a Sun.

vsedach, thank you for the post about the Humble Hacker keyboard. I think building a prototype is within my skills. Hopefully, it's also within my patience and budget.

[7bit]

Great to read this, but what will be the layout now?

I did some thinking about this and came up with the attachment here. (I mocked up the Symbolics keyboard the same way -- files at http://ts4z.net/kbd/ for comparison)

kbd-layout-strawman.png

Obviously, this isn't a recreation of the Symbolics keyboard, but many of the ideas are there. Hyper, Super, Meta, and Control are there. Rub Out and Control are the same size, in case flat keycaps are used and someone wants to swap them. There are unshifted parenthesis keys. Space bar is shrunk (to the size on my MacBook). I added arrow keys in the best location I could find. I added Scroll Lock because my KVM switches require it. I left out a lot of stuff on the right side to try and minimize the space between the keyboard and the mouse. I left space for the conventional backspace key, just in case, but I omitted the "backspace" key (not rubout) because I suspect that did not actually delete. Maybe add PC-style insert and delete keys.

On the other hand, the "help" key is pretty well covered by F1 on PCs and Linux boxes.

Anything in pink is available space.

If the "Local" key controlled the terminal, we could use Local for the same thing if the OS supported it -- play/next track/eject/brightness.

I left off a lot of stuff because I didn't understand it. Does anyone know what most of the keys on the Symbolics keyboard did? Are any worth trying to revive? (Do we need END, ABORT, SUSPEND, RESUME...?)

I wouldn't mind having some of the Sun type 4/5 keys, but I never really knew what any of them were for, even when I had one on my desk. The arrow keys mostly worked when I had a Sun.

vsedach, thank you for the post about the Humble Hacker keyboard. I think building a prototype is within my skills. Hopefully, it's also within my patience and budget.

END: Is like Data Release. If you type a command you hit END afterwards.
ABORT: ^C
SUSPEND: I think it is like Pause and
RESUME: should be obvious.

What are these 1.5 units keys good for in the function row? The idea I had was to have single keys, so you can put 2 units keys on top of them or just go the conventional way with single keys.

The layout with all keys from the Symbolics keyboard is just one way to equip the keyboard with keys. There will be many other possibilities available in the upcomming double-shots group buy!

These F1 to F12 keys might be good for you and many others, but I like keys to be labeled properly!

This will not be a 'hobbyist' keyboard. It will be for professionals!

PS: "One PCB per key." was a joke!

[ts4z]

I made F5 1.5 across because I figure it gets used by programmers in Visual Studio and Eclipse. Actually, I tried putting circle, square, and triangle up there, but I didn't like the look of them. I figured interested parties could swap in better keycaps. Then I forgot that I had extra wide keys and posted it. Oops.

I made ESC 1.5 across because vi users hit it all the time and I figured they could use a bigger target since it has to be kind of far away.

Perhaps if we make a batch of PCBs, we can have optional switches; those wanting 2-wide keys can have them, and those wanting 1-wide can have them, too, by installing all the switches.

[7bit]

I made F5 1.5 across because I figure it gets used by programmers in Visual Studio and Eclipse. Actually, I tried putting circle, square, and triangle up there, but I didn't like the look of them. I figured interested parties could swap in better keycaps. Then I forgot that I had extra wide keys and posted it. Oops.

I made ESC 1.5 across because vi users hit it all the time and I figured they could use a bigger target since it has to be kind of far away.

Perhaps if we make a batch of PCBs, we can have optional switches; those wanting 2-wide keys can have them, and those wanting 1-wide can have them, too, by installing all the switches.

No, it is better to have single-sized switches, so it is possible to put single caps or double caps on top of them without the need to have several different locations for switches on that PCB.If you need F5 and Escape wider, then it will be 2 units wide.
Also, users of Visual Studio and Eclipse are not the main target group, so I don't think it would be good to mess up the layout for them!

BTW: You are thinking too much of what labels will be on the keys instead of a universally useful layout which offers enough flexibility to please as most users as possible!

[ts4z]

No, it is better to have single-sized switches, so it is possible to put single caps or double caps on top of them without the need to have several different locations for switches on that PCB.If you need F5 and Escape wider, then it will be 2 units wide.
Also, users of Visual Studio and Eclipse are not the main target group, so I don't think it would be good to mess up the layout for them!

BTW: You are thinking too much of what labels will be on the keys instead of a universally useful layout which offers enough flexibility to please as most users as possible!

Thinner F5 is fine with me. I was trying to justify the labels on the original Symbolics keyboard. For me, that's a lot of the charm.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if a keycap is two units wide, the keyswitch has to be under the center; this is in a position that is neither the left nor the right position. It works if a keyswitch is three units wide, though, it would work, but that usually uses a stabilizer, right?

Are there keycaps available that fit two switches?

[7bit]

No, it is better to have single-sized switches, so it is possible to put single caps or double caps on top of them without the need to have several different locations for switches on that PCB.If you need F5 and Escape wider, then it will be 2 units wide.
Also, users of Visual Studio and Eclipse are not the main target group, so I don't think it would be good to mess up the layout for them!

BTW: You are thinking too much of what labels will be on the keys instead of a universally useful layout which offers enough flexibility to please as most users as possible!

Thinner F5 is fine with me. I was trying to justify the labels on the original Symbolics keyboard. For me, that's a lot of the charm.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if a keycap is two units wide, the keyswitch has to be under the center; this is in a position that is neither the left nor the right position. It works if a keyswitch is three units wide, though, it would work, but that usually uses a stabilizer, right?

Are there keycaps available that fit two switches?

No! If the switch is 2 units wide, like the Backspace key, the key cap has got 3 mounts, one for the switch and 2 (left and right) for the stabilizer mounts. But there exist key caps that fit over to switches which are at the distance for 1-units key caps. So you can have both at the same keyboard: single sized function keys or 2-sized function keys, which is more flexible than to equip some keyboards with something like you have with Backspace and others with single switches.

BTW: The original Symbolics keyboard had no stabilizers under its 2 units wide keys.

Function: You could hit that button and enter a function (however that worked),
Clear Input: Clear all the line left of the cursor
Line: like Return, but with indentation
Page: Page down
Complete: Like hitting Tab in the bash shell
Scroll: As far as I remember it gets the cursor one line down.
The square, circle and triangle where application dependant or user defined.

[vsedach]

The layout that will get made will have ABSOLUTELY NO FUNCTION KEYS. The Function key modifiers will be there to work in conjunction with the numeric keys to send F1-F12. Maybe the circle can be F5 for convenience.

The keys will also fill a rectangular area, like the Symbolics keyboards.

END, ABORT, SUSPEND, RESUME are keys for the Lisp debugger. They would require hooks into Emacs to work, but IMO are so useful that they're definitely going in. Rainer Joswig describes the special Lisp Machine keys very well in a Usenet message: https://groups.google.com/group/comp.la ... f81c?hl=en

http://www.pcbcart.com/ quoted me $20 per 120 x 390mm single-sided PCB for a 10-board run. The price drops to $7 per PCB for a 75-board run. They also do assembly. If I get everything sourced and assembled in China, it looks like the prices will be somewhat reasonable.

It looks like getting the case 3d printed would be around $100. I need to check out Chinese plastic case manufacturers.

I found this all-in-one Chinese custom layout keyboard manufacturer: http://www.assemblink.com/ Asked them for a quote for a batch of 50 keyboards with the original Symbolics layout.

I was checking http://www.keycapsdirect.com/key-caps.php and noticed their high-profile spherical profile key caps. Then I took a closer look at the old-style Symbolics, Space Cadet, and Knight keyboard photos. They all appear to have spherical key caps with a similar profile. To stay true to the original Lisp keyboards, I'd like to get those keycaps. Ideally insert-molded/doubleshot, but I need to check prices first.

I'm going to order an old-style Symbolics keyboard from symbolics-dks.com to act as the benchmark for this new keyboard. They still have some refurbished units in stock for $165.

[7bit]

The layout that will get made will have ABSOLUTELY NO FUNCTION KEYS. The Function key modifiers will be there to work in conjunction with the numeric keys to send F1-F12. Maybe the circle can be F5 for convenience.

Do you want to put single keys into the top row?

It sounds like you want to do 2 units keys only.

The keys will also fill a rectangular area, like the Symbolics keyboards.

END, ABORT, SUSPEND, RESUME are keys for the Lisp debugger. They would require hooks into Emacs to work, but IMO are so useful that they're definitely going in. Rainer Joswig describes the special Lisp Machine keys very well in a Usenet message: https://groups.google.com/group/comp.la ... f81c?hl=en

http://www.pcbcart.com/ quoted me $20 per 120 x 390mm single-sided PCB for a 10-board run. The price drops to $7 per PCB for a 75-board run. They also do assembly. If I get everything sourced and assembled in China, it looks like the prices will be somewhat reasonable.

It looks like getting the case 3d printed would be around $100. I need to check out Chinese plastic case manufacturers.

I found this all-in-one Chinese custom layout keyboard manufacturer: http://www.assemblink.com/ Asked them for a quote for a batch of 50 keyboards with the original Symbolics layout.

Prices are quite promissing. But I doubt I would like a Chinese keyboard from an unknown manufacturer.

I was checking http://www.keycapsdirect.com/key-caps.php and noticed their high-profile spherical profile key caps. Then I took a closer look at the old-style Symbolics, Space Cadet, and Knight keyboard photos. They all appear to have spherical key caps with a similar profile. To stay true to the original Lisp keyboards, I'd like to get those keycaps. Ideally insert-molded/doubleshot, but I need to check prices first.

You should not focus at key-caps at all! What the user wants to put on their keyboard will be differing too much from what you think is best. The keyboards shouild be available without key caps! The Round 3 group buy contains a lot of keys which can be used to equip the entire keyboard already!

I'm going to order an old-style Symbolics keyboard from symbolics-dks.com to act as the benchmark for this new keyboard. They still have some refurbished units in stock for $165.

I really hope you are still in for an improved Symbolics keyboard instead of an exact clone.

[vsedach]

Do you want to put single keys into the top row?

It sounds like you want to do 2 units keys only.

Yes, the top row needs wide keys. Here's the relevant quote from Rainer Joswig's description as to why this is important:

groups the keys in an inner zone where you have letters and numbers. the keys have the normal size. The key rows also have different angles. The second zone are the keys around the inner zone. These outer keys are all very large, so they are easy to hit. This gives a very different feel. They feel more like buttons that wire the brain to the machine. That feel is hard to describe. But imagine that you are typing something to a dialog and you need help. You would hit the HELP key which is more like a button. It is not a small help key on some extended size keyboard.

Prices are quite promissing. But I doubt I would like a Chinese keyboard from an unknown manufacturer.

They do metal plate-mounted keyboards. It looks like they're the original manufacturers for a lot of the Cherry MX switch-based keyboards on the market.

You should not focus at key-caps at all! What the user wants to put on their keyboard will be differing too much from what you think is best. The keyboards shouild be available without key caps! The Round 3 group buy contains a lot of keys which can be used to equip the entire keyboard already!

I'm not trying to build a kit keyboard or custom-make keyboards for people. I want to make a recreation of the Lisp Machine keyboards that works well with modern PCs. From what I've read of old-timer posts on Usenet, people liked the feel of the earlier Knight, Space Cadet and Symbolics keyboards to the last Symbolics keyboard. Only the last Symbolics keyboard had cylindrical key caps. I think key cap shape plays an important part in "feel."

I really hope you are still in for an improved Symbolics keyboard instead of an exact clone.

Improved, yes. The main improvement people are asking for are cursor keys.

PS - Here is a Symbolics Genera reference document that describes the usage of some of the special keys: https://sites.google.com/site/vsedach/G ... ects=0&d=1

[7bit]

Do you want to put single keys into the top row?

It sounds like you want to do 2 units keys only.

Yes, the top row needs wide keys. Here's the relevant quote from Rainer Joswig's description as to why this is important:

groups the keys in an inner zone where you have letters and numbers. the keys have the normal size. The key rows also have different angles. The second zone are the keys around the inner zone. These outer keys are all very large, so they are easy to hit. This gives a very different feel. They feel more like buttons that wire the brain to the machine. That feel is hard to describe. But imagine that you are typing something to a dialog and you need help. You would hit the HELP key which is more like a button. It is not a small help key on some extended size keyboard.

Prices are quite promissing. But I doubt I would like a Chinese keyboard from an unknown manufacturer.

They do metal plate-mounted keyboards. It looks like they're the original manufacturers for a lot of the Cherry MX switch-based keyboards on the market.

You should not focus at key-caps at all! What the user wants to put on their keyboard will be differing too much from what you think is best. The keyboards shouild be available without key caps! The Round 3 group buy contains a lot of keys which can be used to equip the entire keyboard already!

I'm not trying to build a kit keyboard or custom-make keyboards for people. I want to make a recreation of the Lisp Machine keyboards that works well with modern PCs. From what I've read of old-timer posts on Usenet, people liked the feel of the earlier Knight, Space Cadet and Symbolics keyboards to the last Symbolics keyboard. Only the last Symbolics keyboard had cylindrical key caps. I think key cap shape plays an important part in "feel."

I will put keys on it which are 2 units wide. But it would be better to have the option for single keys, because there exist a lot of people who want a different layout. This can only be done when placing switches for single keys on the PCB. I doubt that to put at least 16 keys with stabilizers will make the keyboard cheap enough to compensate for those people who don't like that inflexible layout!

And again, most will put the keys on it they like best! So, selling it with key caps on only, would be a waste!

I'm in for sphericals, too. (I have not tested the SP ones yet, but will in a bit more than a month.)
I doubt everyone will love them. Also, you should know that they can only do spherical keys for row 3 if the keys are larger than one unit!

[vsedach]

My old-style Symbolics keyboard just arrived this morning. Going to take the calipers to the keycaps and post measurements and pictures.

I also have thought a lot about the layout, and have a pretty good idea of what would work well. Need to make a layout diagram now.

[vsedach]

The first thing you notice about the old-style Symbolics keyboard is how big it is:

IMG_0386.JPG (993.42 KiB) Viewed 9237 times

The second thing you notice is that the keyboard is angled more aggressively than today's keyboards, the rise from the bottom to top rows being more reminiscent of typewriters and old teletypes. Not only that, but the tops of the switches that the key caps fit on are angled:

IMG_0383.JPG (441.83 KiB) Viewed 9237 times

(Notice the red spot under one of the switches above - that's the Caps Lock switch - when you push it down, it stays in the down position).

I measured the key caps. They most resemble the SA profile keys from Signature Plastics (http://www.keycapsdirect.com/images/faq ... ilesLG.jpg):

IMG_0385.JPG (877.78 KiB) Viewed 9237 times

Another unusual thing is the extra-long spacebar with plastic stabilizer. Instead of having one key switch in the middle, the spacebar goes on top of two key switches at either end:

IMG_0384.JPG (455.69 KiB) Viewed 9237 times

[quadibloc]

Of course, the Symbolics keyboard did follow "Qwerty staggering", and yet the cursor keypad was embedded.

But a concern I have is that if the keyboard is split into two PCBs, then, even with some non-standard staggering - in fact, any staggering at all, it's unclear how the two keyboards can be placed side by side without leaving a large gap in the middle of the keyboard.

[vsedach]

Some updates.

The good:

I worked out this layout incorporating arrow keys and the usual qwerty staggering:

layout.png (15.31 KiB) Viewed 9064 times

(OpenOffice spreadsheet file attached if you want to play around).

There's two keys I'm not sure about (marked with ????), one of them 1.5 wide. I have a few notes about them, but I've misplaced those for the moment.

Note that tilde/backquote (~) goes where the semicolon key is on the original LispM keyboards (more familiar plus it actually makes more sense for Common Lisp, since backquote is used for list templating now). I put the semicolon key after the + before backspace.

The bad:

I'm starting grad school in a few months and won't have time to work on this project. Also I'm waiting on keycaps direct for a quote (they're probably on vacation), but from what I read on geekhack, getting authentic keycaps (spherical, sculpted) would be very expensive (over $100 per kbd). This is something I was afraid of at the start.

Unfortunately I think these circumstances (well, mostly no more time for side-projects) mean that the keyboard is NOT going to happen in the near future (next 2-3 years).

[7bit]

Do it right, or just leave it. It does not make sense to do the layout too inflexible.

My own idea was it to have some univerasally useful PCB which gives a lot of choices for different layouts without requireing another PCB.

I don't like your space bar. It is 5.5 units long, but SP might not be able to produce one in the DCS (cylindrical) family and there is only an 8 units or a 4 units space in SA family (spherical).

If there ecver happens, a new spherical spacebar, it will be 7 units or 6.25 units wide.

[ts4z]

I picked up one of the Symbolics keyboards from DKS after the thread started, and did hans23's modification to make it work via USB. It's cool, although I haven't really finished the project. My wife's reaction to the noise the keyboard makes was quite funny, but I suspect if I keep using it, it will become less so.

I'm worried that it will be hard to switch between a Symbolics keyboard and a laptop keyboard. I also don't know what to do with both BACK SPACE and RUB OUT keys, or with both RETURN and LINE. But certainly, a lot of those problems can be solved with firmware. I've modified hans23's firmware a bit, partly to make it work with the newer Teensy boards. I have not yet fixed the layout to work to my liking.