Return key names

[Daniel Beardsmore]

We need some professional and unambiguous names for the various enter/return key styles. At present, we have:

• ANSI — straightforward, but not necessarily meaningful¹
• ISO or JIS depending on your world-view¹
• big-ass — unacceptable term for more than one reason
• huge-ass — even wider than big-ass (rare — I will have a link to one in my IRC log)
• tight-ass — just made it up — smaller than big-ass, e.g. US [wiki]Apple Standard Keyboard[/wiki]s
• anorexic-ass — even smaller again, where the "tail" of the enter key is really thin and spindly, like [wiki]HP 9816[/wiki] but even worse
• anorexic ISO — as in [wiki]Apple Aluminium Keyboard[/wiki], basically ISO enter designed to ensure you hit the empty space to the right any time you want a new line

The problem with "J" is that it covers a range of ass sizes ambiguously, and only tight-ass resembles a letter "J" to me anyway. I also don't write my letter "L"s like "Ⴈ".

¹ What are ANSI and ISO anyway? I prefer to use those only for the IBM Model M layout, but there are so many keyboards that use layouts that are similar. How far are we allowed to stray before we're disqualified? What do you call a keyboard with a key between left shift and (in the UK) Z, if the enter key is bigass?

[Muirium]

"Rectangular" is a pretty clear name for ANSI Return. All of the other varieties are, of course, more difficult.

I suggest defining each term (whatever they will be) with a diagram marked in units. The moment I heard that (very almost) everything on keyboards is measured in quarter units, the arcane plethora of layouts started to make a world of sense. It's hard to coin a name for each variation, but they are simple enough to tell apart once you know what you're looking for. Which is pretty much the reason anyone would be reading about them.

[Findecanor]

I suggest horizontal for ANSI keys, vertical for ISO/JIS Return keys and Backwards-L for the "big-ass" keys.

"Rectangular" is much too ambigious. Many vertical Return keys are rectangular. For instance, the Return key on a ISO-layout IBM Model M is a 1.25×2 unit rectangle and a small stepped portion. On some ISO-layout keyboards (example), the Return key is a perfect rectangle, and the small stepped portion is on the ] key instead.

I recall the term "Backwards-L" being used by Key Tronic in some ad, many years ago.

[QWERTim]

Top/bottom heavy?

[Muirium]

I suggest horizontal for ANSI keys, vertical for ISO/JIS Return keys and Backwards-L for the "big-ass" keys.

"Rectangular" is much too ambigious. Many vertical Return keys are rectangular. For instance, the Return key on a ISO-layout IBM Model M is a 1.25×2 unit rectangle and a small stepped portion. On some Fujitsu-Siemens rubber domes that are very common, the key is truly a 1.25×2 unit rectangle.

Oh, good point. My XT right here has a rectangular Return: a vertical one.

Top/bottom heavy?

Well, big asses come in different shapes, y'see.

[webwit]

Horizontal bar.

[7bit]

I suggest to use the naming convetion Signature Plastics uses:

SP-naming_convention.png (5.63 KiB) Viewed 6828 times

150x200x225x100 would be the big ass and 150x200x125x100 the small ass Return.

Other variants are 100x200x175x100, or if it is a square: 150x200x150x200.

You can add the row to the naming convention: R2U150x200x125x100.

[kbdfr]

I would suggest sticking to "ANSI" and "ISO" for the classical forms because these terms are so widely used that it would be not only silly, but also pointless to artificially produce other names.

Remember that linguistics is a descriptive, not a normative science.

[7bit]

Good point!

Another, shorter naming convention which makes use of the fact that most Return keys are flush right:
R2U150U125
R2U150U225

Return key on a Model M:
U150U125S (no different rows and S means stepped)

[Halvar]

• ...
• tight-ass — just made it up — smaller than big-ass, e.g. US [wiki]Apple Standard Keyboard[/wiki]s
  ...

Ha ha, you wish ...
http://deskthority.net/search.php?keywords=tight+ass

I agree with kbdfr. I actually don't see a lot of sense in inventing names here. At the moment, the community is basically using

• ISO/JIS Enter
• ANSI Enter
• Big Ass Enter

A more "scientific" description would be the one that SP uses, as 7bit proposed, although it's not very intuitive. Why would we need more than these possibilities?

[kbdfr]

Good point!

Another, shorter naming convention which makes use of the fact that most Return keys are flush right:
R2U150U125
R2U150U225

I would find it quite freaky to say that an Alcatel MMK keyboard has a R2U125U100-shaped return

[7bit]

Well, if we ever order Return keys in different sizes than ISO, then I might ditch the JRET convention and call them that way.
Things have to have names which can be easily evaluated by a chain of primitive commands.


ps: R2U125/100 might be better, to avoid 2 Us in that string should the script split at U between row and size of the key. I already use R2U125/B for blanks, so the / does not disturb any existing software.


It would also sound better:
Ar too, you one twenty five, hundred.
or
Ar too, you one fifty, too twenty five.

[kbdfr]

By the way, naming the rows with numbers starting from the number row and not from the function key row is quite silly in my eyes. The more so as IIRC, for some manufacturers row 1 is the space bar row and the number row is #5 - which is by far more logical.

That's where it would be useful to find new designations. Or to simply adopt the more logical solution

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I would suggest sticking to "ANSI" and "ISO" for the classical forms because these terms are so widely used that it would be not only silly, but also pointless to artificially produce other names.

Remember that linguistics is a descriptive, not a normative science.

Well, I'm not allowed to say "Z mount" or "U mount". That breaks all the imaginary rules, apparently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_9995

Most of the diagrams there aren't even "ISO", so either ISO doesn't mean what we think it means, or the diagrams are all nonsensical — it's an awful lot of waffle and seems to be far more complicated than just saying "make it look like a Model M". Then you have to consider what Far East-made keyboards are, as they rarely correspond to "ISO" or "ANSI", with all manner of random combinations.

So far as I can tell, "ISO" and "ANSI" are just short for "IBM Model M layout" (in contradiction to any actual standards) and I don't like terms that don't have any clear definition or consensus, or that don't add up to even a fraction of 100% coverage of the available options. I would be happy to accept them as shorthand if they were actually precise, but they're not, and I never have any idea what I can legitimately describe as "ISO" or "ANSI" and what I cannot, and why, and nobody's going to waste time trying to figure out some standard.

[Broadmonkey]

Please kill the J return or JRET as 7bit calls it. It fucks with my head, why anybody would call it something as stupid as that! KILL that name, especially since it refers to this:

J-Return.JPG (11.89 KiB) Viewed 6769 times

when people really mean this:

ISO Enter.png (1.61 KiB) Viewed 6774 times

I am okay with leaving the name for the REAL JRET but only then.

If it has to have something to do with numbers it should be V/H[total area in units].
So ISO Enter is V2.75 and ANSI Enter is H2.75 (V=Vertical, H=Horizontal).
BigAss would be 2.75+1.5 = 4.25 which is then V4.25 since it occupies more than one row.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Wait, people use "J" for "ISO"? Why?! "J" is a hopeless term ... here's the huge-ass enter:

http://www.zippy.com/K_Product_detail.a ... lv_rfnbr=2

[webwit]

@Broadmonkey: Nice hat btw.

[Broadmonkey]

Have you ever tried to order a regular ISO Enter (or V2.75) from one of 7bits group buys just to realize there is only redundant JRET available?

Thanks Webwit, I wasn't joking when I said I wanted a CC tophat!

[kbdfr]

So far as I can tell, "ISO" and "ANSI" are just short for "IBM Model M layout" (in contradiction to any actual standards) and I don't like terms that don't have any clear definition or consensus, or that don't add up to even a fraction of 100% coverage of the available options. I would be happy to accept them as shorthand if they were actually precise, but they're not, and I never have any idea what I can legitimately describe as "ISO" or "ANSI" and what I cannot, and why, and nobody's going to waste time trying to figure out some standard.

ISO is commonly understood as what 7bit would call R2U150/125 and ANSI as R3U225. Change other names, but not those two which everybody knows.

If it has to have something to do with numbers it should be V/H[total area in units].
So ISO Enter is V2.75 and ANSI Enter is H2.75 (V=Vertical, H=Horizontal).

That won't do, unfortunately. V2.75 would also be used for a (7bit-speakwise) R2U125/150 key, i.e. a key where the broader part is on the lower row.

[Muirium]

Wait, people use "J" for "ISO"? Why?! "J" is a hopeless term ... here's the huge-ass enter:

http://www.zippy.com/K_Product_detail.a ... lv_rfnbr=2

Aaaargh! What is that thing? Something's face hugging a keyboard. It's awful!

Anywho, JRET is a perfect shorthand for the ISO Return key. Instantly recognisable, but doesn't make a lick of sense when you think twice about it.

[7bit]

Wait, people use "J" for "ISO"? Why?! "J" is a hopeless term ... here's the huge-ass enter:

http://www.zippy.com/K_Product_detail.a ... lv_rfnbr=2

Because JRET is a J mirrored at the x-axis, while LRET is an L mirrored at the y-axis.

[Broadmonkey]

If it has to have something to do with numbers it should be V/H[total area in units].
So ISO Enter is V2.75 and ANSI Enter is H2.75 (V=Vertical, H=Horizontal).

That won't do, unfortunately. V2.75 would also be used for a (7bit-speakwise) R2U125/150 key, i.e. a key where the broader part is on the lower row.

Is there such a key?

[Muirium]

Wait, people use "J" for "ISO"? Why?! "J" is a hopeless term ... here's the huge-ass enter:

http://www.zippy.com/K_Product_detail.a ... lv_rfnbr=2

Because JRET is a J mirrored at the x-axis, while LRET is an L mirrored at the y-axis.

Oh, you mean ⅂ ʇǝᴚ.

[Halvar]

JRET and LRET are both correct, you just have to rotate the keyboard 90° clockwise to see it!

LRET-90deg.jpg (6.42 KiB) Viewed 6722 times

JRET-90deg.png (1.29 KiB) Viewed 6722 times

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Anywho, JRET is a perfect shorthand for the ISO Return key. Instantly recognisable, but doesn't make a lick of sense when you think twice about it.

It cannot be both JRET and ISO. It has to be one or the other but not ever both. It certainly cannot be both "L" and "J" when those aren't even rotationally symmetrical. I would never guess that anyone would be stupid enough to use "J" to refer to a key that is not J-shaped when it's an alternative to a keycap that actually is J-shaped but gets called "big-ass" (which actually makes more sense and is far more obvious as it's well-known for being way oversize). I suspect I've misread "J" as "bigass" many times.

WTF?!?!

Who needs Alps when we're voluntarily digging our own holes for ourselves ......

[Daemon Raccoon]

Going along with the IBM created everything we hold dear, calling the big-ass enter the "AT" enter would work.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

JRET and LRET are both correct, you just have to rotate the keyboard 90° clockwise to see it!

I have no idea WTF alphabet you're using ... but it ain't one with a "J" in it.

[kbdfr]

If it has to have something to do with numbers it should be V/H[total area in units].
So ISO Enter is V2.75 and ANSI Enter is H2.75 (V=Vertical, H=Horizontal).

That won't do, unfortunately. V2.75 would also be used for a (7bit-speakwise) R2U125/150 key, i.e. a key where the broader part is on the lower row.

Is there such a key?

Not that I know of, but it shows that such a designation pattern would not be unambiguous.

[7bit]

I don't really care! I don't use L-, m- or J-shaped Returns!

All I need is a 1 or 1.5 units RETURN key!

[Halvar]

JRET and LRET are both correct, you just have to rotate the keyboard 90° clockwise to see it!

I have no idea WTF alphabet you're using ... but it ain't one with a "J" in it.

This is a J.

JRET-90deg.png (1.29 KiB) Viewed 6718 times