Mechanical keyboard reviews in HD! :D

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Chyros

07 Mar 2017, 13:01

Wodan wrote: lots of letters
So really your entire objection is just about the two Matias videos I've done then? Wow, that's making a mountain out of a molehill if I ever saw it.


Well, if you think I've done those in a biased way, that's your opinion. I've been very transparent with how I did it, both to the community and to Matias themselves - I made it clear that I would give my honest opinion of the board regardless. I don't think it's possible to be 100% unbiased in any review of ANYTHING, as personal preference always plays a part. As you so well know, since you take such great offence whenever I talk of my opinion about Cherry MX (which I still think is the real reason why you're going so out of your way to slander me, by the way). But, to the best of my abilities, I've tried to be as neutral as I can be while still giving my opinion of the matter.

Also, Matias did not send me the board up front, I requested it because I thought it would make an interesting video, as it's been requested tons of times. I'm assuming you'll find some excuse to spin that into something utterly evil as well? :/

EDIT: Oh, I see. I just looked up your comment in the Matias video thread, and apparently you think it was a PAID review. Hah, shows you how well-founded your objections are; it wasn't!

User avatar
Wodan
ISO Advocate

07 Mar 2017, 13:24

It's the first of your sponsored videos I watched and I bring up some SERIOUS concerns with your review standard and explain in detail why.

Matias is clearly seeing Cherry as their main competitor:
http://matias.ca/switches/click/
(Directly comparing their switches to Cherry MX)

Your final verdict, after comparing their 150$ premium retail keyboard against a 15 year old PCB mounted recycler find from Cherry ... while ignoring a 40$ Gateron Clicky keyboard in your possesion that isn't considered competition by Matias.

"compared to Cherry switches, these just wipe them off the table. Not even a match really I'd say."

Yeah that's how most good reviews end. Total victory ...
Chyros wrote: EDIT: Oh, I see. I just looked up your comment in the Matias video thread, and apparently you think it was a PAID review. Hah, shows you how well-founded your objections are; it wasn't!
Dude ... you start off the video by telling everyone you got the keyboard by Matias and it is a sponsored video. That's what a PAID review is to me. If you have to use a different term for that to keep up your self respect, good luck.

User avatar
Chyros

07 Mar 2017, 13:36

Wodan wrote: It's the first of your sponsored videos I watched and I bring up some SERIOUS concerns with your review standard and explain in detail why.

Matias is clearly seeing Cherry as their main competitor:
http://matias.ca/switches/click/
(Directly comparing their switches to Cherry MX)

Your final verdict, after comparing their 150$ premium retail keyboard against a 15 year old PCB mounted recycler find from Cherry ... while ignoring a 40$ Gateron Clicky keyboard in your possesion that isn't considered competition by Matias.

"compared to Cherry switches, these just wipe them off the table. Not even a match really I'd say."

Yeah that's how most good reviews end. Total victory dude ...
I figured it would be clear from the review that I consider the way the tactility is generated in Matias switches to be much superior to the way it is generated in MX-style switches, which includes Gateron. So, just to put your mind at ease, I also consider them definitely superior to Gateron blues as well. Or Kailh blues, or any of the other MX-style clicky switches I've tried. Much more tactile, and a better sound to boot. Happy now?


P.S. You're free to donate me a brand-new Cherry board to compare it to - I promise I won't take any money from Cherry or Matias for it Image .

andrewjoy

07 Mar 2017, 13:40

Getting a product provided does not mean its a paid review.

By definition you have to be paid :P.

And as i stated in the thread for that video , using an older cherry is doing them a favour , modern cherry switches are quite bad , very scratchy.

User avatar
Wodan
ISO Advocate

07 Mar 2017, 13:49

andrewjoy wrote: Getting a product provided does not mean its a paid review.

By definition you have to be paid :P.
Getting a free product is a form of payment. Don't be so naive ... it's a 150$ keyboard!

Having to send the product back after the review, that is "getting a product provided for review"

But Chyros is clearly adressing the keyboard as "HIS" so I am just assuming he can keep it AS A PAYMENT.

I mean he ACTUALLY refers to the video as "sponsored" so you are trying to defend him by claiming the video wasn't sponsored => financially supported?

But this misconception is precisely why the concept of send "free stuff" to Youtube reviewers is so popular. Most people don't even realize they are watching a commercial. And the example of Chyros is a great demonstration that some of the reviewers don't even realize or admit they are being used or manipulated by free stuff.
Chyros wrote: P.S. You're free to donate me a brand-new Cherry board to compare it to - I promise I won't take any money from Cherry or Matias for it Image .
Yeah ... Or you could create another GoFundMe campaign to purchase some nice modern keyboards so you have something to compare the next "sponsored" keyboard with :P

User avatar
y11971alex

07 Mar 2017, 14:01

Wodan wrote:
andrewjoy wrote: Getting a product provided does not mean its a paid review.

By definition you have to be paid :P.
Getting a free product is a form of payment. Don't be so naive ... it's a 150$ keyboard!
It isn't. There are legitimate reasons why returning the product is unfeasible, like shipping costs. If YouTubers really intended to do their shopping by soliciting free samples for reviews, chyrosran would be doing washing machine reviews and TV dinner reviews.
Wodan wrote: But Chyros is clearly adressing the keyboard as "HIS" so I am just assuming he can keep it AS A PAYMENT.
He also addressed the 3278 that he got from andy as "his".

User avatar
Chyros

07 Mar 2017, 14:06

Wodan wrote:
andrewjoy wrote: Getting a product provided does not mean its a paid review.

By definition you have to be paid :P.
Getting a free product is a form of payment. Don't be so naive ... it's a 150$ keyboard!

Having to send the product back after the review, that is "getting a product provided for review"

But Chyros is clearly adressing the keyboard as "HIS" so I am just assuming he can keep it AS A PAYMENT.

I mean he ACTUALLY refers to the video as "sponsored" so you are trying to defend him by claiming the video wasn't sponsored => financially supported?

But this misconception is precisely why the concept of send "free stuff" to Youtube reviewers is so popular. Most people don't even realize they are watching a commercial. And the example of Chyros is a great demonstration that some of the reviewers don't even realize or admit they are being used or manipulated by free stuff.
Yes, I get to keep it. And as you pointed out, I clearly stated that that was a sponsored video. What more do you want from me?!
Chyros wrote: P.S. You're free to donate me a brand-new Cherry board to compare it to - I promise I won't take any money from Cherry or Matias for it Image .
Yeah ... Or you could create another GoFundMe campaign to purchase some nice modern keyboards so you have something to compare the next "sponsored" keyboard with :P
I'll happily send you my PayPal if you want to fund me for this purpose Image .


I'm glad that we're getting to the bottom of what your REAL objection to my campaign is though - a review from a few months ago in which I gave your favourite switches a negative comparison, and in which you argue I'm biased because I don't compare it to a keyboard I don't have. Makes perfect sense.

User avatar
Wodan
ISO Advocate

07 Mar 2017, 14:16

y11971alex wrote: It isn't. There are legitimate reasons why returning the product is unfeasible, like shipping costs. If YouTubers really intended to do their shopping by soliciting free samples for reviews, chyrosran would be doing washing machine reviews and TV dinner reviews.
Wodan wrote: But Chyros is clearly adressing the keyboard as "HIS" so I am just assuming he can keep it AS A PAYMENT.
He also addressed the 3278 that he got from andy as "his".
Yeah of course there are ALWAYS good reasons why it is much better to do the wrong thing. It's ridiculous we are having a debate about this ... you get something in exchange for a review. Don't let them fool you that is a payment!

Now finding an excuse to keep the stuff is a whole different story. People do worse to keep their self respect ... shipping costs, sponsorship, risk of getting lost ... yeah I am sure most people believe this justifies keeping the payment. And I am also sure companies and agencies that work with this "free samples" concept tell you something like that.

I am sure if Chyros had to send back the Matias boards, he will let me know in font size 72.

andrewjoy

07 Mar 2017, 14:18

Wodan wrote:
Getting a free product is a form of payment. Don't be so naive ... it's a 150$ keyboard!

Yes it is , but can that 150$ keyboard feed your family or heat your home ? No so its not a payment.

How else do you expect people who review tech to get products ? Should they buy them all ?

So a PC channel should buy 50 motherboards and 100 CPUs and every single GPU on the market ?

Or possibly you would prefer no reviews of products and the only info we get about them is from the marketing team of the company who made it ?

You see many many reviews of products provided for review that get absolutely shit on by reviewers . If a company ever tried to make you publish only positive reviews or paid you to say something good they would get absolutely trashed by reviewers, they have a reputation to uphold. Not to mention this practice is highly illegal if not disclosed.

Now sure if its some collage kid who gets free stuff provided for them then possibly there will be some conflict of interest, but thats why i don't watch that type of review , i prefer ones from people who do it as a genuine hobby who do it on the side , or who have been lucky enough to turn it into a job.

And its not as if you should be afraid of losing access, a direct quite from a publisher to a youtube reviewer of games " there is no point in blacklisting you ( not sending out review codes ) you would just buy the game and shit on it anyway".

Watching or reading a review is something you should do as a responsible consumer and people getting provided with products is the only practical way to make that happen. Things would be worse for consumers if this did not happen.

User avatar
Chyros

07 Mar 2017, 14:34

andrewjoy wrote:
Wodan wrote:
Getting a free product is a form of payment. Don't be so naive ... it's a 150$ keyboard!

Yes it is , but can that 150$ keyboard feed your family or heat your home ? No so its not a payment.

How else do you expect people who review tech to get products ? Should they buy them all ?

So a PC channel should buy 50 motherboards and 100 CPUs and every single GPU on the market ?

Or possibly you would prefer no reviews of products and the only info we get about them is from the marketing team of the company who made it ?

You see many many reviews of products provided for review that get absolutely shit on by reviewers . If a company ever tried to make you publish only positive reviews or paid you to say something good they would get absolutely trashed by reviewers, they have a reputation to uphold. Not to mention this practice is highly illegal if not disclosed.

Now sure if its some collage kid who gets free stuff provided for them then possibly there will be some conflict of interest, but thats why i don't watch that type of review , i prefer ones from people who do it as a genuine hobby who do it on the side , or who have been lucky enough to turn it into a job.

And its not as if you should be afraid of losing access, a direct quite from a publisher to a youtube reviewer of games " there is no point in blacklisting you ( not sending out review codes ) you would just buy the game and shit on it anyway".

Watching or reading a review is something you should do as a responsible consumer and people getting provided with products is the only practical way to make that happen. Things would be worse for consumers if this did not happen.
Nail on the head.

Many viewers have commented that they like my objective, no-nonsense style of reviewing compared to other reviewers, which tend to just recite the official sales pitch of the company. THAT'S a biased video. I detest that sort of commercial review, and therefore have made it my point to review these keyboards in a way where I just say exactly what I think of it instead, be it positive or negative. Yes, if someone would send me a shit keyboard, I'd call it out on that! As anyone who's watched my reviews will know, I'm not shy of saying it's shit when it's shit, and in ten different shades of expletive, too.

So, as Andrew noted, I actually stand to lose quite a few by not doing my reviews objectively, because that's how people want my reviews to be. No commercial donations are worth my reputation, SURELY you can see this. Why would I sell my soul to a company in exchange for a keyboard I don't even like?

User avatar
y11971alex

07 Mar 2017, 14:34

Wodan wrote:
y11971alex wrote: It isn't. There are legitimate reasons why returning the product is unfeasible, like shipping costs. If YouTubers really intended to do their shopping by soliciting free samples for reviews, chyrosran would be doing washing machine reviews and TV dinner reviews.
Wodan wrote: But Chyros is clearly adressing the keyboard as "HIS" so I am just assuming he can keep it AS A PAYMENT.
He also addressed the 3278 that he got from andy as "his".
Yeah of course there are ALWAYS good reasons why it is much better to do the wrong thing. It's ridiculous we are having a debate about this ... you get something in exchange for a review. Don't let them fool you that is a payment!
I disagree with this. There are some reviewers out there whose positive review is certainly worth more than a $150 piece of computer peripheral. The fact that free samples are sent out to every single reviewer regardless of the value of their reviews, which would be very hard to assess, indicates that it is not a form of payment for a service rendered. It is a courtesy but not a payment. The world does not revolve around what you deem right but what is objectively efficient.
Wodan wrote: Now finding an excuse to keep the stuff is a whole different story. People do worse to keep their self respect ... shipping costs, sponsorship, risk of getting lost ... yeah I am sure most people believe this justifies keeping the payment. And I am also sure companies and agencies that work with this "free samples" concept tell you something like that.
The cynicism is overpowering. This is only ever an issue when there is misconduct, which I have yet to see you prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
Last edited by y11971alex on 07 Mar 2017, 14:38, edited 2 times in total.

davkol

07 Mar 2017, 14:35

andrewjoy wrote: You see many many reviews of products provided for review that get absolutely shit on by reviewers . If a company ever tried to make you publish only positive reviews or paid you to say something good they would get absolutely trashed by reviewers, they have a reputation to uphold. Not to mention this practice is highly illegal if not disclosed.
You're so out of touch, it's ridiculous.

For instance, Apple blacklisted many sites, that criticized iPhone 6 bending (example), and that's nothing new. I might post more examples, once I get back home.
Last edited by davkol on 07 Mar 2017, 14:37, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Wodan
ISO Advocate

07 Mar 2017, 14:37

Chyros wrote: I'm glad that we're getting to the bottom of what your REAL objection to my campaign is though - a review from a few months ago in which I gave your favourite switches a negative comparison, and in which you argue I'm biased because I don't compare it to a keyboard I don't have. Makes perfect sense.
It's not about what you did AGAINST Cherry MX switches - I also wanted to see the Gateron in the video since I actually think MX Blues are shit and Gateron blues are the "good" MX Clickies - but how you use a totally crooked comparison to give your sponsor a 10/10 rating.

I have watched my share of Youtube reviews and product comparisons and never have I seen a conclusion like that - In your FIRST paid review ...

You either got in way over your head and just didn't have anything to compare the Matias against in which case I think it is just wrong to pull up ANY comparison and forge that into a verdict ...

Or you were looking for perform well in your first job and did what was necessary to make a nice Matias ad.

I mean we're WAY past the point where you could give the Matias an unbiased review now ... :(
Still, would just be funny to see how this review could have been if you had a Magicforce68 with Gateron Blues and a Filco with MX Blues for comparison :)

LOL just makes me ask myself ... why didn't you compare it to ANY of the other Clicky Fullsize keyboards you have? Maybe a ModelM or a ModelF ? I mean you are going the EXACT comparison Matias is aching for on their product page.

See I _WAS_ just looking at the shady Cherry MX comparison but now I wonder ... isn't a 50$ Model M a great alternative as a clicky typist keyboard? Matias should send me one and let me do the Model M comparison, they will love it :lol:

User avatar
Wodan
ISO Advocate

07 Mar 2017, 14:46

y11971alex wrote: I disagree with this. There are some reviewers out there whose positive review is certainly worth more than a $150 piece of computer peripheral. The fact that free samples are sent out to every single reviewer regardless of the value of their reviews, which would be very hard to assess, indicates that it is not a form of payment for a service rendered. It is a courtesy but not a payment. The world does not revolve around what you deem right but what is objectively efficient.
How many more words are you going to come up with it. Chyros called it SPONSORING, you call it a COURTESY and this other dude claims:
andrewjoy wrote: Yes it is , but can that 150$ keyboard feed your family or heat your home ? No so its not a payment.
Maybe. You can cook the case and burn the rest for heat :)

On the other hand ... let's say you're paid cash ... can three 50$ bills feed your family?

Oh wait they are just ONE trade closer to feeding your family than the keyboard.
Are you playing stupid here to dig up arguments? If you fail to understand how you can feed your family with a 150$ keyboard I recommend checking out /r/mechmarket or any other trade forum where keyboards can magically be turned into money.

And yeah I guess at that point you know the way ...

User avatar
y11971alex

07 Mar 2017, 14:50

Wodan wrote:
y11971alex wrote: I disagree with this. There are some reviewers out there whose positive review is certainly worth more than a $150 piece of computer peripheral. The fact that free samples are sent out to every single reviewer regardless of the value of their reviews, which would be very hard to assess, indicates that it is not a form of payment for a service rendered. It is a courtesy but not a payment. The world does not revolve around what you deem right but what is objectively efficient.
How many more words are you going to come up with it. Chyros called it SPONSORING, you call it a COURTESY[...]
And since when has "sponsorship" been semantically equated to "for hire"? :P

Image
John MacEnroe hired to do theatrical outbursts on court?

andrewjoy

07 Mar 2017, 14:51

davkol wrote:
andrewjoy wrote: You see many many reviews of products provided for review that get absolutely shit on by reviewers . If a company ever tried to make you publish only positive reviews or paid you to say something good they would get absolutely trashed by reviewers, they have a reputation to uphold. Not to mention this practice is highly illegal if not disclosed.
You're so out of touch, it's ridiculous.

For instance, Apple blacklisted many sites, that criticized iPhone 6 bending (example), and that's nothing new. I might post more examples, once I get back home.

You just proved my point , everyone in the tech field knows about bendgate , and now apple look the twat for trying to suppress it.

Just look how well people get on trying to silence critics of shitty game devs by filing fake DMCA takedowns , it always comes off bad for them and get the critic loads of good press .

If a critic of anything is afraid to get blacklisted they are not a good critic.

User avatar
Wodan
ISO Advocate

07 Mar 2017, 15:06

y11971alex wrote: And since when has "sponsorship" been semantically equated to "for hire"? :P

John MacEnroe hired to do theatrical outbursts on court?
I never meant to argue with you, it's a shame we clash here but to me this is really just terminology. I wouldn't even go NEARLY as far as calling Chyros "sponsored by Matias" ... I mean how could he do keyboard reviews if he was generally "Sponsored by Matias" ...

If you don't think that people getting free stuff from a company will have an impact on their impression of that product ... I will accept that. But I see it differently.

And when the result is such a streamlined review, tailored to the requirements of the sponsors' marketing ... I raise my doubts.

davkol

07 Mar 2017, 15:11

andrewjoy wrote: You just proved my point , everyone in the tech field knows about bendgate , and now apple look the twat for trying to suppress it.
If you're on the blacklist, it's a different story.

…and that's the case, when the blacklist is leaked. Then you have completely deformed markets (such as the aforementioned hi-fi audio, where many high-end vendors don't even release specs, not to mention complete snake oil).

In addition, native advertising must be news to you. :shock:

User avatar
y11971alex

07 Mar 2017, 15:20

Wodan wrote:
y11971alex wrote: And since when has "sponsorship" been semantically equated to "for hire"? :P

John MacEnroe hired to do theatrical outbursts on court?
I never meant to argue with you, it's a shame we clash here but to me this is really just terminology. I wouldn't even go NEARLY as far as calling Chyros "sponsored by Matias" ... I mean how could he do keyboard reviews if he was generally "Sponsored by Matias" ...
I apologize deeply if this has been in any way a bad experience for you, but that isn't what I'd call sound reasoning. I'm not a consumer/corporate psychologist, so I'm not one to say if getting free samples for review has an impact on the reviewer's stance. But:
Wodan wrote: If you don't think that people getting free stuff from a company will have an impact on their impression of that product ... I will accept that. But I see it differently.
This is fair enough, but what I'm seeing here is that you're not merely expressing your suspicion, but rather lashing out with conviction that something improper has taken place. Like you, I can't read into people's minds, but I would greatly prefer if we don't simply take each other's actions in the worst possible way. It makes this forum and life in general unbearable.
Wodan wrote: And when the result is such a streamlined review, tailored to the requirements of the sponsors' marketing ... I raise my doubts.
So in the case where chyrosran's actual, personal opinion happens to co-incide with the desired message of Mathias, you would default to the suspicion that Mathias instructed him to say so. However unreasonable that perspective is, I won't pester you for saying it. My only concern is that you don't seem to have firm evidence for you suspicions. If you have reservations about the neutrality of content posted on YouTube, then say that instead of smearing posters with unproven claims of misconduct. YouTube videos aren't courts of law where judges need to recuse themselves on the slightest hint of conflict of interest.

User avatar
Laser
emacs -nw

07 Mar 2017, 15:36

This is what happens,
when nothing else happens
on DT. :evil:

User avatar
wobbled

07 Mar 2017, 15:50

Laser wrote: This is what happens,
when nothing else happens
on DT. :evil:
Wodan throwing a tantrum you mean?

User avatar
Wodan
ISO Advocate

07 Mar 2017, 15:55

I don't see any the claims I base my conclusion on challenged. It's different people coming to different conclusions ...

If you feel like I am accusing Chyros of taking money on top of the free keyboard or doing contract work in his review - that's not what I am saying and not what I am trying to prove here. I am saying he's taken the bait of a free keyboard and in return - out of his free will - given the sponsor an ad-worth review...

WhenI address this, his response is:
Chyros wrote: I would've used a newer one if I had one, but as Andy said I'm arguably doing the Cherry a favour with it.
=> He has no competition for the Matias at hand so takes the next best thing he can find to justify his verdict.
Chyros wrote:
Wodan wrote: This would have made a MUCH better comparison for the Matias Clicky switch:
review-f45/cheap-chinese-cherry-knockof ... 4425.htmlb

Blue Gaterons are my personal #1 Clicky MX switch, 1/3rd the price of the Matias board.
Why in God's name would I compare a cheap knockoff gaming keyboard to a premium typing keyboard, it makes no sense!
=> Actually he DOES have competition for the Matias at hand but refuses to compare them because ... it has backlighting and costs 1/3 of his sponsored board.

Yeah and only recently I realized the Model M would be a great alternative as well. What a surprise ending ... "If you on a budget, get a Model M but if you want the most out of your 150$, treat yourself with a Matias"

User avatar
Chyros

07 Mar 2017, 16:01

Wodan wrote:
Chyros wrote: I'm glad that we're getting to the bottom of what your REAL objection to my campaign is though - a review from a few months ago in which I gave your favourite switches a negative comparison, and in which you argue I'm biased because I don't compare it to a keyboard I don't have. Makes perfect sense.
It's not about what you did AGAINST Cherry MX switches - I also wanted to see the Gateron in the video since I actually think MX Blues are shit and Gateron blues are the "good" MX Clickies - but how you use a totally crooked comparison to give your sponsor a 10/10 rating.

I have watched my share of Youtube reviews and product comparisons and never have I seen a conclusion like that - In your FIRST paid review ...

You either got in way over your head and just didn't have anything to compare the Matias against in which case I think it is just wrong to pull up ANY comparison and forge that into a verdict ...

Or you were looking for perform well in your first job and did what was necessary to make a nice Matias ad.

I mean we're WAY past the point where you could give the Matias an unbiased review now ... :(
Still, would just be funny to see how this review could have been if you had a Magicforce68 with Gateron Blues and a Filco with MX Blues for comparison :)

LOL just makes me ask myself ... why didn't you compare it to ANY of the other Clicky Fullsize keyboards you have? Maybe a ModelM or a ModelF ? I mean you are going the EXACT comparison Matias is aching for on their product page.

See I _WAS_ just looking at the shady Cherry MX comparison but now I wonder ... isn't a 50$ Model M a great alternative as a clicky typist keyboard? Matias should send me one and let me do the Model M comparison, they will love it :lol:
I do compare them to other keyboards, I explicitly stated that they're not as good as the old Alps switches, I even concluded that if you want the best possible you'd get an OmniKey with blue Alps instead! You're so blinded by your personal vendetta against me that you're selectively leaving out bits from my video that completely wipe out your argument in order to push your false points to discredit me. That's called twisting someone's words and is just about the lowest form of debate. You're not interested in the objectivity of my videos at all at this point, because you won't even look at the bits where I show the negatives of the keyboard. Sure, if you neglect all the negatives I said, I'm only saying good stuff, you're definitely right about that. If ANYONE here is biased it's you - you're not looking at the negatives and only at the positives!

Clearly, you skipped the entire conclusion, and probably other parts of the video, because if you hadn't, you'd never have raised this point to begin with. I like Matias switches because they're new and still available. I like a great many things better, a lot better even, but not everyone can get their hands on a blue Alps keyboard in as-new condition, and not everyone is interested in scouring eBay for old keyboards and then trying to get them to work on a modern computer. My point with this keyboard is that it's not as good as the old keyboards I have, but it's better than most of the modern competition, and that's in fact exactly what I mention in the conclusion!

And davkol, what you're saying is just not true, one of the things I've learned from Tom's Hardware in fact. They've had calls from companies complaining how all their preorders on a product got cancelled because TH gave it a bad review (in fact TH give bad reviews to lots of products, all of which are donations - I suppose they're all biased as well despite this?), but still those same companies keep sending them more stuff. They basically send everything they make out to them for review. Sure, there's always biased reviewers around, I mentioned that before. But I think I'm not one of them. Regardless, you're more than free not to watch any of my sponsored videos. I've made it abundantly clear they're sponsored, and if you don't want to watch them, you don't have to, I'm not making you or anything. I've mentioned it in the review itself, it's in the video description, and the Matias logo all over the splash panel I hoped would give an indication that it's sponsored too (actual text describing this would look rather ugly in a splash panel, I'm sure you'd agree). So, for future reference, just skip all the videos I put up with a logo in the splash panel, and then neither of you have to complain about this strange perceived bias that's apparently so rife throughout my Matias video.

User avatar
y11971alex

07 Mar 2017, 16:19

Wodan wrote: I don't see any the claims I base my conclusion on challenged. It's different people coming to different conclusions ...

If you feel like I am accusing Chyros of taking money on top of the free keyboard or doing contract work in his review - that's not what I am saying and not what I am trying to prove here. I am saying he's taken the bait of a free keyboard and in return - out of his free will - given the sponsor an ad-worth review...
You haven't proven the connection. You have the premise and the conclusion, but you haven't (adequately) explained their relationship.

andrewjoy

07 Mar 2017, 16:23

y11971alex wrote: You haven't proven the connection. You have the premise and the conclusion, but you haven't (adequately) explained their relationship.
Exactly, the accusation is not the proof, what does wodan think we are feminists ?

User avatar
Wodan
ISO Advocate

07 Mar 2017, 16:28

*sigh*

Okay I re-watched your conclusion. Sorry if all my quotes are "twisting your words" ...

"I ... somewhat prefer the lighter weighting and stronger tactility compared to complicated Alps" <= You even scrap the "Vintage Alps are #1" standpoint to please Matias

"finally compared to Cherry switches these just wipe them off the table, it's not even a match really I'd say." <= Based on a 2001 PCB mounted G80 comparison ... take some responsibility when you make such claims or statements! Either admit that you are missing a decent MX based board for a comparison or ask someone to borrow you a Filco or a Ducky. You are doing your best to make this look like a fair comparison which it is by no means.

User avatar
Wodan
ISO Advocate

07 Mar 2017, 16:41

y11971alex wrote: You haven't proven the connection. You have the premise and the conclusion, but you haven't (adequately) explained their relationship.
What connection do you miss here?

Here's my assumptions:
- Chyros has received a keyboard worth 150$ from Matias for review
- His review video - especialls in the conclusion (see my post above) - is 100% what Matias would have wanted with a strong emphasis on the absolute superiority of Matias switches over the designated Matias competitor Cherry.

Here's what I disagree with:
- The Cherry board used is totally unsuitable for a fair comparison (15 years old, PCB mount, basically crap)
- The Gateron board isn't even considered for comparison because it has backlighting in less than 1/3 the price of the Matias
- The still available ModelM which is ~1/2 the price of the Matias and also a VERY popular typist keyboard and a keyboard Chyros also has in his collection wasn't even considered at all.

Here's my conclusion:
You might call this a rookie mistake or simply a bad review but I call this harmful and unresponsible. People are making their keyboard buying decision based on videos like that ...

andrewjoy

07 Mar 2017, 16:52

Wodan wrote: a strong emphasis on the absolute superiority of Matias switches over the designated Matias competitor Cherry.
But this is an opinion. Should he say they are shit because they are not MX ?

And honestly , they do wipe the floor with cherry :P

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y11971alex

07 Mar 2017, 16:55

Wodan wrote:
y11971alex wrote: You haven't proven the connection. You have the premise and the conclusion, but you haven't (adequately) explained their relationship.
What connection do you miss here?

Here's my assumptions:
- Chyros has received a keyboard worth 150$ from Matias for review
- His review video - especialls in the conclusion (see my post above) - is 100% what Matias would have wanted with a strong emphasis on the absolute superiority of Matias switches over the designated Matias competitor Cherry.
And what appraise your conclusion that the positivity expressed in the review was occasioned by the fact that the keyboard was free? Can you see into his mind? This is the very issue that I have with you. Unless you have proof that his opinions expressed are directly linked to the fact that the keyboard was free, I will continue to withhold my acquiescence with your assertions. The fact that his review may co-incide with what Matias wants is no proof that they are occasioned by the gift of the keyboard in question. Besides, we have no proof that this is actually what Matias wants.
Wodan wrote: Here's what I disagree with:
- The Cherry board used is totally unsuitable for a fair comparison (15 years old, PCB mount, basically crap)
- The Gateron board isn't even considered for comparison because it has backlighting in less than 1/3 the price of the Matias
- The still available ModelM which is ~1/2 the price of the Matias and also a VERY popular typist keyboard and a keyboard Chyros also has in his collection wasn't even considered at all.
So what you're suggesting is that Chyrosran should be required to compare every keyboard to every other keyboard he has ever touched?

User avatar
Chyros

07 Mar 2017, 17:48

Wodan wrote: *sigh*

Okay I re-watched your conclusion. Sorry if all my quotes are "twisting your words" ...

"I ... somewhat prefer the lighter weighting and stronger tactility compared to complicated Alps" <= You even scrap the "Vintage Alps are #1" standpoint to please Matias

"finally compared to Cherry switches these just wipe them off the table, it's not even a match really I'd say." <= Based on a 2001 PCB mounted G80 comparison ... take some responsibility when you make such claims or statements! Either admit that you are missing a decent MX based board for a comparison or ask someone to borrow you a Filco or a Ducky. You are doing your best to make this look like a fair comparison which it is by no means.
There's the whole problem with your argument on that particular point; you say I MUST be wrong because I'm not doing something that you THINK is right. Andrew on the other hand noted the opposite (both now and back then) that I'm doing them a favour as he raises that the newer ones are worse than the older ones. Is his opinion worth less than yours, then? Or even better, have you come over to my house and tried the 15 or so MX blues boards I've had in my possession, to assess on whether I'm basing this on a keyboard in unrepresentative condition? Do you own the Matias board?


I have a large collection, but I don't have every board every made from every year ever made. I clearly show in the video I'm comparing it to an older MX3000 (the most modern one with MX blue I have, as it happens, and it's in very nice condition), so your objections of me trying to pass the comparison off as something it's not is clearly void. I have compared it to the equivalent of the current industry-leading counterpart and concluded it was better than it, and modern others like Gaterons (and Kailh) which I do have new I didn't find sufficiently better or different to come to a different conclusion. So what's the problem exactly?

You can keep whining about unfair this and biased that but you haven't got a single point of substance or fact, it's all conjecture, opinion or deliberately misrepresented quotes. We're obviously getting closer to your true objections once again, though. It doesn't have anything to do with the asking for money or a bias in my reviews, you're just sore I didn't compare one of my keyboards to one of yours. Well, I don't have your board, tough tits.

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