Modern Beamspring? - The Silo Beam Switch

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0100010

25 Apr 2019, 22:26

Hall effect and not capacitive sense? :-(

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Touch_It

25 Apr 2019, 23:48

holy crap. Ive been lurking in the shadows for the last 3 years. I think id immediately buy one if available.

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Bass

26 Apr 2019, 06:53

Very exciting news indeed! I have long been of the opinion that the lack of innovation in switch designs has been one of the things that has made me less interested in modern keyboards as of late, though this reality is understandable since designing new switches requires a lot more know-how and ingenuity than keycaps, cases and PCBs. If these feel even 80% as good as a beamspring does, I would be most impressed by the relatively low price points being advertised here given the switch design is more complex than MX.

The sound video was also interesting. It was actually very easy to tell which of the four switches was the new Silo switch without actually reading the description since plate spring-like switches have such a beautifully distinct sound.

nickg

01 May 2019, 17:58

Bass wrote:
26 Apr 2019, 06:53


The sound video was also interesting. It was actually very easy to tell which of the four switches was the new Silo switch without actually reading the description since plate spring-like switches have such a beautifully distinct sound.
Agreed, it gives me hope that they sound so much like my 6850. Doesn't have to be 100% the same just close enough that i'm satisfied and can put the ibm away and only use on special occasions to preserve the beauty. Hopefully they'll eventually sell the individual switches so I can make a tkl board and separate numpad out of it.

bleair

02 May 2019, 09:27

The description for this switch sounds so promising.

Will this modern switch be capable of faster "return" than original beam springs? As in do I have to worry about typing too fast on repeated keys for the "beam" portion to reset?

Findecanor

02 May 2019, 14:12

0100010 wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 22:26
Hall effect and not capacitive sense? :-(
Although a hall sensor is a discrete component that costs money and needs space, a pair of capacitive pads is so large that you would very get limited in the number of alternative key placements you could cramp into a board.
Key Tronic managed to put both ISO, ANSI and JIS on one board. But you can forget about such things as different bottom rows or stepped Caps Lock.

I would like to see a buckling rubber sleeve (like a rubber dome with a hole in the middle) in a Silo switch. Preferably, a rubber sleeve and a coiled spring in parallel.
I believe that such an arrangement could form a good smooth, silent tactile switch with a rounder bump than Silo Command, and without the ridiculously light pre-travel that these otherwise have.
The springs in Silo switches are relatively short and shorter springs provide steeper force curves, but I think that's OK if the switch is tactile enough. The linear switch's curve looks like something in-between Cherry MX Black and Cherry MY... :(

nickg

02 May 2019, 16:52

Findecanor wrote:
02 May 2019, 14:12
0100010 wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 22:26
Hall effect and not capacitive sense? :-(
Although a hall sensor is a discrete component that costs money and needs space, a pair of capacitive pads is so large that you would very get limited in the number of alternative key placements you could cramp into a board.
Key Tronic managed to put both ISO, ANSI and JIS on one board. But you can forget about such things as different bottom rows or stepped Caps Lock.

I would like to see a buckling rubber sleeve (like a rubber dome with a hole in the middle) in a Silo switch. Preferably, a rubber sleeve and a coiled spring in parallel.
I believe that such an arrangement could form a good smooth, silent tactile switch with a rounder bump than Silo Command, and without the ridiculously light pre-travel that these otherwise have.
The springs in Silo switches are relatively short and shorter springs provide steeper force curves, but I think that's OK if the switch is tactile enough. The linear switch's curve looks like something in-between Cherry MX Black and Cherry MY... :(
honestly it being hall effect has my excited. much as i love my capacitive beamspring keyboard i have a certain love for all effects and its pre-mechanical beginnings. plus since this is smaller it'll probably actuate faster.

j0hnwats0n

02 Aug 2019, 14:57

HaaTa wrote:
21 Apr 2019, 20:34

We'll be making the switches available and around when the keyboard launches we'll also have a reference design so people can design custom keyboards. It'll be based around atsam4s (ARM Cortex-M4).
Would building a dactyl PCB for these be insurmountably difficult, or should I keep my hopes up?
For reference: https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard

Findecanor

02 Aug 2019, 16:10

Dactyls are typically hand-wired between mechanical switches, so someone would have to at least build a single-switch PCB.

I'd think fixing pins would be absolutely essential for attaching the single-switch PCB. The first revealed revision of the Silo switches didn't have any fixing pins, but the second has a pair of them.

However, I think that Input.Club and Kailh needs to revise their design by offsetting each fixing pin upwards and downwards respectively (symmetrically, to retain 180° rotation): they are now right on the centre line, with the sensor position right in-between them: which means that a regular PCB can't have multiple alternative switch positions close to each other.
It has been the offset layout of Cherry MX's switch-pins that has allowed there to be multi-layout PCBs for it.

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Elrick

25 Sep 2019, 06:30

Just spotted this on Kono;

https://kono.store/products/keystone-an ... 2054134867

So is this actually happening now?

Also, will it include my choice of SILO Beam (Clicky) or will you get whatever they choose from Kono's ordering system?

This is what's holding me back here, I want my choice in switches here and not some Linear or Tactile model, from a lucky pick type of keyboard's that arrive at their warehouse. No switch selection being offered during payment, is what's scaring me here.

Why no selection being offered at this very early stage of payment? Just curious to know.

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zslane

25 Sep 2019, 18:31

During the Kickstarter campaign, you chose which HE switch you wanted, either linear or tactile, and then could add the Silo beamspring switches as a $30 addon. From their website, you order the keyboard and then can order the Silos as a separate $50 purchase. I don't see anywhere you can specify which stock HE switches you want (linear, tactile, or clicky) to come with the keyboard though. That's a bit confusing.

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Elrick

26 Sep 2019, 04:26

zslane wrote:
25 Sep 2019, 18:31
I don't see anywhere you can specify which stock HE switches you want (linear, tactile, or clicky) to come with the keyboard though. That's a bit confusing.
That's what keeps people away because THEY never provide details about what you are actually PAYING for.

Of course not even saying via print, what you will be getting at the end of this payment scheme. Hence why I like to eventually see this keyboard on MassDrop, where all details will be revealed and the buyer doesn't get scammed in any way (MD always back the payee when something goes wrong from their end).

The risk here is always the buyer paying for something they don't even know, what they paid for. Screams dodgy-scam all the way, sorry but this is how Flebay function's with certain low-life sellers, that leave out vital details when payment is sent to them.

Can't believe this method of selling is functioning exactly like in the 'Twilight Zone' of deceit, here on Deskthority Central :( .

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Elrick

26 Sep 2019, 06:05

Just checked the Kono website and low and behold, they now supplied two switch versions with this keyboard, Tactile and Linear.

So where's the Clicky version?

:? :? :? :(

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SneakyRobb

26 Sep 2019, 19:22

Elrick wrote:
26 Sep 2019, 06:05
Just checked the Kono website and low and behold, they now supplied two switch versions with this keyboard, Tactile and Linear.

So where's the Clicky version?

:? :? :? :(
The tactile mechanism can be as easy as a drop in "kaihl style" tactile bar thing. You could basically use 100% the same everything shell case slider etc etc except one small bent metal piece. Sort of like alps you could remove the click/tactile leaf to linearize it quickly.

The Silo click mechanism is not a click-bar though. They could have made a click bar that drops into the same spot and be done with it. They specifically chose a beamspring click mechanism though.

IMHO The mechanism for the beamspring is sufficiently mechanically different that interchangeability might not be 100% from tactile/linear to clicky. Further to get such a mechanism in such a small shape with good feels, reliability etc etc is hard.

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abrahamstechnology

26 Sep 2019, 20:41

It's kind of bad that this switch has nothing to secure it to the PCB which will make it near-impossible to convert some existing chassis to work with these. Wish they thought to put in dummy solder pins or screw inserts.

listofoptions

26 Sep 2019, 21:05

you'd need a custom PCB made for any existing boards, due to the hall effect sensor. i guess they could have gone with a 2-wire hall effect sensor and integrated it into the switch, but that means reliance on one sensor, and engineering a custom frame to hold the sensor; engineering an assembly process etc...not to mention the lack of space inside the switch for the rest of the mechanism if they go that route.

Findecanor

26 Sep 2019, 21:15

BTW, there is a more recent thread about Keystone, that had some more recent posts before today.
abrahamstechnology wrote:
26 Sep 2019, 20:41
It's kind of bad that this switch has nothing to secure it to the PCB which will make it near-impossible to convert some existing chassis to work with these.
You mean, keyboards where the PCB is suspended from the switch-mounting plate or tray designs where the plate is held by the switches?
In those cases, I think you could solve it by bolting the PCB and plate together with standoffs: Modding might only require drilling a few holes in the plate.

BTW, in prototype pictures of the switch on the Keystone Kickstarter page, the switches do have fixing pins, at least.
Unfortunately, the fixing pins are in a straight line with the hall-effect sensor, so that line might get a bit too crowded to allow multiple layouts: such as winkeyless and winkey, or ANSI and ISO.
It would be a shame if they didn't fix this.

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TheInverseKey

26 Sep 2019, 21:27

Unless they make either pbs for common custom keyboards I don't see this taking off more than what has already been bought through the kickstarter.

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Elrick

27 Sep 2019, 02:55

SneakyRobb wrote:
26 Sep 2019, 19:22
IMHO The mechanism for the beamspring is sufficiently mechanically different that interchangeability might not be 100% from tactile/linear to clicky. Further to get such a mechanism in such a small shape with good feels, reliability etc etc is hard.
Oh not going to ignore buying this, due to NOT having a "Clicky" switch feel simply because Hall Effect should be supported and this keyboard has been made for us. Also it's from a small company of people which deserve support because making such a keyboard isn't easy especially during these dangerous times.

Obviously beggars can't be choosers here but at least having "Tactile" is far better than having a Linear switch.

You know you've pressed it when it gives that subtle click beneath your finger. Still dream of having a Beam-Spring switch feel when someone in the far future decides to make one that is heavy and loud above all other lame switches made today or yesterday.

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zslane

27 Sep 2019, 18:43

I think the design/product mandate here is to be forward-looking rather than to aim for the retrofit modding crowd. I'm assuming that's where they see their biggest potential customer base: i.e., folks who are looking for entirely new keyboards, as opposed to folks who just want to futz around with their old keyboards. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Elrick

10 Oct 2019, 02:20

Stopped whining about this product here, placed down my money for a Tactile 'REAL-sized' version of this keyboard.

It maybe a wait for this product here but hoping to receive it during 2020. Have also bought a batch of 'Clicky' Beam Spring switches as extras, to place them on my forth coming keyboard.

Also wish the design goes through successfully and I might even get this Hall Effect Keyboard, before ever seeing my F77.

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zslane

10 Oct 2019, 19:06

Yeah, I placed the same exact order during the Kickstarter. I'm looking forward to it and all the inevitable early-adopter bugs.

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Elrick

11 Oct 2019, 03:25

zslane wrote:
10 Oct 2019, 19:06
I'm looking forward to it and all the inevitable early-adopter bugs.
Part and parcel of buying totally NEW technology keyboards, using this style of switch.

It's a first, compacting down an IBM Beam Spring switch into a Cherry sized model. That alone would be a miracle to achieve here.

But if you don't front up with the money for them to pursue this then it probably would never be done. Hence we lead the way in making this happen otherwise it would be a good concept without any incentive to make it real.

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Muirium
µ

11 Oct 2019, 03:43

I’ll gladly sit back and watch your intrepid reactions. I’m in favour of this keyboard, and Hataa’s turn to the production side, just as much as you fellas. Just don’t have the funds for speculative leaps. Best of luck, y’hear!

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Elrick

12 Oct 2019, 02:02

Muirium wrote:
11 Oct 2019, 03:43
I’ll gladly sit back and watch your intrepid reactions.
Be our guest, we'll see whether in 2020 we all get our dream keyboards or we ALL become pathetic Lemming's, that have jumped off a Cliff with this suicidal attempt in claiming this imaginary keyboard :shock: .

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Muirium
µ

12 Oct 2019, 03:09

Indeed, my anxious yet unhindered friend, indeed…
Spoiler:
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