Double-Shot Sphericals for Cherry MX

[webwit]

I once mailed Mr. Knight about his keyboards. Unfortunately he didn't answer.

[7bit]

I once mailed Mr. Knight about his keyboards. Unfortunately he didn't answer.

Maybe he get 100s of e-mails a day with questions about his keyboards ...

... or he just hit the wrong key and your e-mail got deleted.

FOREVER!

Nevertheless:

Because Round 3 stuff starts to ship in a few days, I want to bring this up again.

Round 4 will start immediately after the majority of Round 3 key caps have shipped, which will be at end of June.

Please post you ideas of what you would like to have here, or set up your own thread.

[Gilgam]

One thing that may be nice is to have a set with ANSI and ISO modifiers only without the keys, the famous ortd style of blue on gray is very fine

What about devlin keycaps ?

[Spharx]

Spoiler:

Light Blue on Dark Blue with Nyala or Gentium Basic as Font ... what do you think of this ?

I would buy the F keys, the ISO numbers row, the buttons above the arrow-keys and ANSI modifiers for my Leopold

[7bit]

One thing that may be nice is to have a set with ANSI and ISO modifiers only without the keys, the famous ortd style of blue on gray is very fine

You mean without the US-ANSI keys which get replaced?

Well, maybe ...

What about devlin keycaps ?

They are not double shot.

Spoiler:

Light Blue on Dark Blue with Nyala or Gentium Basic as Font ... what do you think of this ?

I would buy the F keys, the ISO numbers row, the buttons above the arrow-keys and ANSI modifiers for my Leopold

Nyala or Gentium Basic as Font:
I would prefer Iwona, others like Comic Sans best ...

If you create the SVG graphics and find enough people to buy these (expansive) key caps, they will be done.

There is a fixed $25 setup price for each SVG.

[morcles]

If it is related to LISP I'd be seriously interested in it.

The longer I stare at this keyboard, the more I'm sure it is a keyboard from the Lisp/Symbolics culture.

There are ; and : as separate keys, but no quotation marks in sight!
Then the parenthesis on the [ ] keys.

This is a Stanford extended-ASCII keyboard or SAIL keyboard.

It only has two bucky keys (CONTROL and META) as opposed to
four bucky keys (CONTROL, META, HYPER and SUPER) on the later MIT LISP keyboards.
Thus the SAIL keyboard could only type 512 different characters,
while the Space Cadet could do over 8000!

related idea:
Maybe Round4 should offer a cokebottle keycap ...




UPDATE: Some links.

Museum: SAIL computer Lab display
Includes another picture of this keyboard.

Interesting read: SAIL Away
Includes
..
A fancier display system, installed at SAIL in 1971, put a terminal using a television monitor on everyone's desk. SAIL was apparently the first system in the world that put terminals in offices -- before that, the few computer displays that existed were kept in "display rooms." This display system also included an advanced keyboard that introduced the "Meta" key and other features to facilitate touch-typing. That keyboard design was picked up promptly by MIT and Carnegie-Mellon University and later by Apple, whose Command key is a direct descendent of the Meta key on the SAIL keyboard.
...

Cokebottle ? The AI Hacker's Dictionary
:cokebottle: /kohk'bot-l/ n. Any very unusual character,
particularly one you can't type because it it isn't on your
keyboard. MIT people used to complain about the
`control-meta-cokebottle' commands at SAIL, and SAIL people
complained right back about the `{altmode}-altmode-cokebottle'
commands at MIT. After the demise of the {space-cadet
keyboard}, `cokebottle' faded away as serious usage, but was
often invoked humorously to describe an (unspecified) weird or
non-intuitive keystroke command. It may be due for a second
inning, however. The OSF/Motif window manager, `mwm(1)', has
a reserved keystroke for switching to the default set of
keybindings and behavior. This keystroke is (believe it or not)
`control-meta-bang' (see {bang}). Since the exclamation point
looks a lot like an upside down Coke bottle, Motif hackers have
begun referring to this keystroke as `cokebottle'. See also
{quadruple bucky}.

[7bit]

This is a Stanford extended-ASCII keyboard or SAIL keyboard.

It only has two bucky keys (CONTROL and META) as opposed to
four bucky keys (CONTROL, META, HYPER and SUPER) on the later MIT LISP keyboards.
Thus the SAIL keyboard could only type 512 different characters,
while the Space Cadet could do over 8000!

Thank you for the information! Do you have any link?

related idea:
Maybe Round4 should offer a cokebottle keycap ...

If you want it, make an SVG graphic!

[morcles]

Thank you for the information! Do you have any link?

I just updated my post.

[rouston]

Why not any Black on Red option? They look better for a black case and an obvious choice.

[7bit]

Why not any Black on Red option? They look better for a black case and an obvious choice.

Everybody wants something else!

[rouston]

Why not any Black on Red option? They look better for a black case and an obvious choice.

Everybody wants something else!

Yes I understand, so no way to include it instead of another one that got zero vote for instance?

[7bit]

Yes I understand, so no way to include it instead of another one that got zero vote for instance?

This is already my plan!

I will collect all color/text combinations mentioned here and set up a new poll to see which will make it to reasonable quantities.

[kps]

It's the SAIL (Stanford Artificial Intelligence Laboratory) keyboard, circa 1971, part of the Data Disc interactive terminal system.

[Edit: oops, I didn't scroll down far enough.]

I extracted that dual 4:3 wallpaper from the following photo by Marcin Wichary:

[morcles]

Looking at SP's specifications for the SA-family of keycaps,
I wondered if it's possible to get all the keys required for
a full set of keycaps for a modern 104/105keys board or a tenkeyless.

The SA-family is a bit smaller that the DCS-family used in Round 3.

SA keycaps are available in three finishes:
S - Semi-matte top and sides
G - Gloss top and sides
M - Matte top, semi-matte sides

It looks like not all required sizes are available and/or
if a keysize is available, it comes with another finish.

Like
r1u200. not available..... <Backspace>
r2u150. only in S.M finish <Tab><\|>
r3u175u only in S.. finish <(unstepped) CapsLock>
r3u175s only in ..M finish <(stepped) CapsLock>
r3u225. only in ..M finish <Return>
r4u225. not available..... <(left) Shift>
r4u275. not available..... <(right) Shift>
r4u125. only in ..M finish <(modifiers)>
r2u200v not available..... <(numpad) +>
r4u200v not available..... <(numpad) Enter>

Another problem might be the SA-spacebars.
They come in 4, 8 and 9 units length, while 6.25 is most common.

Maybe the PDF is incomplete/inaccurate, maybe not.
Somebody contacted SP about this yet?

[7bit]

Looking at SP's specifications for the SA-family of keycaps,
I wondered if it's possible to get all the keys required for
a full set of keycaps for a modern 104/105keys board or a tenkeyless.

The SA-family is a bit smaller that the DCS-family used in Round 3.

SA keycaps are available in three finishes:
S - Semi-matte top and sides
G - Gloss top and sides
M - Matte top, semi-matte sides

It looks like not all required sizes are available and/or
if a keysize is available, it comes with another finish.

Like
r1u200. not available..... <Backspace>
r2u150. only in S.M finish <Tab><\|>
r3u175u only in S.. finish <(unstepped) CapsLock>
r3u175s only in ..M finish <(stepped) CapsLock>
r3u225. only in ..M finish <Return>
r4u225. not available..... <(left) Shift>
r4u275. not available..... <(right) Shift>
r4u125. only in ..M finish <(modifiers)>
r2u200v not available..... <(numpad) +>
r4u200v not available..... <(numpad) Enter>

Another problem might be the SA-spacebars.
They come in 4, 8 and 9 units length, while 6.25 is most common.

Maybe the PDF is incomplete/inaccurate, maybe not.
Somebody contacted SP about this yet?

- Keys larger than 1 unit are not available in rows other than row 3. (this is for Cherry MX; there might be other rows available for other families)
- No space bar to fit Cherry keyboards (6.25 or 7 units) so space bars must be taken from other families (DCS).

[morcles]

- Keys larger than 1 unit are not available in rows other than row 3. (this is for Cherry MX; there might be other rows available for other families)

The r3u175 is only available in semi-matte, while
the r3u225 is only available in matte finish.
And I don't see a r3u275 <Shift>-size at all.

- No space bar to fit Cherry keyboards (6.25 or 7 units) so space bars must be taken from other families (DCS).

A SA spacebar has an approx. height of 0.462" at a 0degree angle.
A DCS spacebar has an approx. height of 0.248" at a 16degree angle.
That's more than a 5 mm difference ...

Putting a DCS spacebar between row3 or row4 SA keys would be ... ugly?
I guess it won't be comfortable for typing either.


I would really REALLY love to have a (tenkeyless) keyboard with Symbolics-like sperical keycaps.
But it has to be 100% right, and not just ~50%. That's the whole idea behind 'custom-made'.

We should ask SP if they are willing to extend their SA family, so it'll suit normal/modern keyboards too.

[7bit]

- Keys larger than 1 unit are not available in rows other than row 3. (this is for Cherry MX; there might be other rows available for other families)

The r3u175 is only available in semi-matte, while
the r3u225 is only available in matte finish.
And I don't see a r3u275 <Shift>-size at all.

- No space bar to fit Cherry keyboards (6.25 or 7 units) so space bars must be taken from other families (DCS).

A SA spacebar has an approx. height of 0.462" at a 0degree angle.
A DCS spacebar has an approx. height of 0.248" at a 16degree angle.
That's more than a 5 mm difference ...

Putting a DCS spacebar between row3 or row4 SA keys would be ... ugly?
I guess it won't be comfortable for typing either.


I would really REALLY love to have a (tenkeyless) keyboard with Symbolics-like sperical keycaps.
But it has to be 100% right, and not just ~50%. That's the whole idea behind 'custom-made'.

We should ask SP if they are willing to extend their SA family, so it'll suit normal/modern keyboards too.

I did never look into that list. I asked Melissa abaout which keys exist. Shi did tell me there are no keys larger than 1 unit outside row 3. She did not tell me there don't exist 2.75 units right shif keys.

The only way out of this:
Mod your keyboard to have a 1.75 units right shift and an extra 1 unit key instead of the too big right shift.

Same for 6.25 or 7 units space bars!

[morcles]

Lol! I'll go get my hacksaw.

No seriously, someone should contact Melissa about this.

[woody]

No seriously, someone should contact Melissa about this.

Is she young and pretty?

[7bit]

No seriously, someone should contact Melissa about this.

Is she young and pretty?

Next time I contact her, I will ask her that.

Promised!

[morcles]

I contacted SP.

I've made a table with relevant keysizes for current keyboards, collected information from these PDF's and put the spherical keycap-families DSA, SA, SS and DSS into that table. Although cylindricals, DCS are also included for reference, as these were used in eg. GH Round 3.

SP sphericals.PNG (43.09 KiB) Viewed 16851 times

I asked SP if their PDF's are correct/complete. If not then this table would make no sense.
I also asked them if they can create new molds for missing sizes, and if any restrictions apply.
Furthermore, I asked SP about their point of view with regard to extending one or more spherical families, in order to make full sets of keycaps.

Melissa answered:
"Thank you for contacting us! Unfortunately the PDF's listed on line are
accurate. As you put it, these are 'retro' keycaps and are not as frequently
ordered as our DCS or DSA families are (it has been quite a few years since
we have run the DSS family specifically). Generally our customers using the
DSA family are creating their own custom retail keyboards and don't require
all of the functions that a normal keyboard has. Back in the day, the SA
family was used as a large style (old school typewriter) key and was ordered
almost exclusively in Row 3. I couldn't begin to tell you why certain shapes
were not initially created when these families were tooled up as this was
long before my time (early 80's), but I do know it has frustrated customers
like yourselves looking for this retro style key.
We use a tool maker on a regular bases that can create various new shapes
for a keycap family. Unfortunately with the little demand we have seen for a
completely customizable keyboard in these older families, we cannot justify
the expense of investing in this tooling ourselves. I would be happy to get
a quote for some new shapes, though it would help know what family you might
be leaning towards ordering. There are not any restrictions that apply when
building new keycap tooling - the only thing to be aware of is the time and
cost. Generally new tooling for a shape can run from $1000 to $2000 and lead
time is anywhere from 8-10 weeks just to build the tooling (this is a busy
season for new tools)."


To be continued ...

[ripster]

Bummer.

SA is pretty awesome. These I modded to fit IBM Buckling Spring.

[morcles]

'pretty awsome' is an understatement.

I'd say every keyboard needs a full set !

[7bit]

'pretty awsome' is an understatement.

I'd say every keyboard needs a full set !

$2000 for a key like 2.75 units shift key or the 6.25 units space for Filco and Cherry?

This is not too far away from being doable!

Morcles, can you ask her about a definite price quoute for those keys (I mean the tools) which we would need?

ps: looking at your table, it seems I created a successful naming scheme for key size/row etc.

[webwit]

$1000 to $2000 is far less than I expected.

[7bit]

$1000 to $2000 is far less than I expected.

If one key costs $2,000 and we would need say 8 key shapes, it would still be $16,000 !!!

If we would manage to order 50,000 key caps and prices would be the same as in Round 3, a Standard kit with 118 keys (space included) would cost around twice as much (16000/50000*118+40 == 77.76)

[morcles]

If one key costs $2,000 and we would need say 8 key shapes, it would still be $16,000 !!!

2k is worst case, so it will be (far) less than 16k for 8 shapes.

We would additionally need a total of
9 shapes for ANSI/ISO 87/88 tenkeyless boards,
11 shapes for ANSI/ISO 104/105 boards, or
14 shapes to support 101/102 boards.

Morcles, can you ask her about a definite price quoute for those keys (I mean the tools) which we would need?

I'm working on that, for the required 9, 11 and 14 shapes as mentioned above.

ps: looking at your table, it seems I created a successful naming scheme for key size/row etc.

Yes, very usable!

[7bit]

If one key costs $2,000 and we would need say 8 key shapes, it would still be $16,000 !!!

2k is worst case, so it will be (far) less than 16k for 8 shapes.

We would additionally need a total of
9 shapes for ANSI/ISO 87/88 tenkeyless boards,
11 shapes for ANSI/ISO 104/105 boards, or
14 shapes to support 101/102 boards.

Morcles, can you ask her about a definite price quoute for those keys (I mean the tools) which we would need?

I'm working on that, for the required 9, 11 and 14 shapes as mentioned above.

ps: looking at your table, it seems I created a successful naming scheme for key size/row etc.

Yes, very usable!

Can you pleasse invluce the 7 units space bar?
Also, ask her if it is possible to make the space bars legendable!

BTW: Why doesn't she answer me?

I got no responses for a week or two!

[morcles]

Can you pleasse invluce the 7 units space bar?

r4u700 spacebars (both OLD Cherry mount and POS mount) are on the list, they are part of the complete 14-shapes set.

Also, ask her if it is possible to make the space bars legendable!

SP ace

[rouston]

It's the SAIL (Stanford Artificial Intelligence Laboratory) keyboard, circa 1971, part of the Data Disc interactive terminal system.

[Edit: oops, I didn't scroll down far enough.]

I extracted that dual 4:3 wallpaper from the following photo by Marcin Wichary:

This white on light blue is perfect> I hope it will be the same light blue.