F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

andrewjoy

05 Aug 2015, 11:03

Muirium wrote: Image
That second photo proves there was a mold for a none stepped caps lock.

Sort your shit out unicomp i want one!

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joc

05 Aug 2015, 18:54

Another alternative layout for 60% keyboards is the SpaceFn layout. The layout takes some getting used to but feels comfortable to use once your muscle memory sets in. Attached are versions of xwhatsit's firmware and GUI utility that include SpaceFn if anyone wants to try it out.
ibm_capsense_usb_model_f_spacefn_0.9.0.zip
(13.12 KiB) Downloaded 38 times
ibm_capsense_usb_util_spacefn_0.9.0.zip
(14.75 MiB) Downloaded 37 times
example_spacefn_layout.zip
(753 Bytes) Downloaded 30 times
Last edited by joc on 13 Aug 2015, 21:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Muirium
µ

05 Aug 2015, 19:23

How do you handle the timing? Using a non-modifier key for Fn is troublesome, because the controller has to use its judgement when to send the regular keycode or when to wait for another key to show up, and to transfer to the layer. Space is a nice idea for layering (as a thumb key) but it's also very frequently used!
andrewjoy wrote: That second photo proves there was a mold for a none stepped caps lock.
Well, for Model M2. I think that's what that board is. M2 caps are completely different — lower profile and they include their own flexy plastic stabs — so I'd be surprised if any of the tooling can be shared.

Anyone know got a Japanese layout Model M with an unstepped 1.75u Shift key? I know that Brother got their buckling spring caps right, but these aren't compatible…

Image

Webwit's. I wouldn't mind one of these too! Brother thoughtfully made it TKL for me.

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chzel

05 Aug 2015, 19:31

Mu the easy way is not to time it at all.
Think of it as a "conditional key/modifier"
If while the Space is pressed a second key is pressed as well, it works as Fn. If it gets released before any other key is pressed it is Space.
EasyAVR uses the same trick (called "tap key") and it works fine. I use it on the Phantom using the right 1x key (1.5x config) as Menu and Fn.

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Muirium
µ

05 Aug 2015, 19:33

Oh of course, fire on release instead. But what about those people who like to hold down keys to repeat letters? I never do that, but I could see it being troublesome, especially in games.

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chzel

05 Aug 2015, 19:36

Yeah, that might be an actual issue with the spacebar. Well, for Menu or other "one-shot" keys it works fine!

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XMIT
[ XMIT ]

05 Aug 2015, 19:42

From joc's link:

The space bar does not auto-repeat. To compensate, space+B ("Blank") is an autorepeating space.

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joc

05 Aug 2015, 19:45

Muirium wrote: How do you handle the timing? Using a non-modifier key for Fn is troublesome, because the controller has to use its judgement when to send the regular keycode or when to wait for another key to show up, and to transfer to the layer. Space is a nice idea for layering (as a thumb key) but it's also very frequently used!
I'm properly handling the "rollover" issue with a circular buffer. The order the keys are typed in is maintained and the SpaceFn key is only consumed once the controller figures out if it should be a Space or Fn - if the SpaceFn key is held for longer than 150ms, then it's recognized as Fn, otherwise Space.

I also implemented a simple predictor heuristic that recognizes when you're typing normal text and causes the SpaceFn key to be automatically recognized as Space to allow the typed text to flow without stuttering.
Last edited by joc on 13 Aug 2015, 21:15, edited 1 time in total.

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joc

05 Aug 2015, 19:53

XMIT wrote: From joc's link:

The space bar does not auto-repeat. To compensate, space+B ("Blank") is an autorepeating space.
A nice side effect of the predictor heuristic is that it causes the SpaceFn key to auto-repeat Space when tapped and held (press -> release -> press and hold).
Last edited by joc on 13 Aug 2015, 21:16, edited 1 time in total.

Ellipse

07 Aug 2015, 19:00

Does anyone want to use their own xwhatsit controller or buy a separate controller themselves for their F77 or F62? I am ordering the prototype quantity PCBs this Sunday evening (all of which require soldering a controller to the capacitive PCB). You would probably save just $10 or so on the order because the prototype boards are more expensive in low quantities. The keyboards will come standard with a USB controller included - this is just if you wanted to use your own controller.

The HHKB style split right shift PCBs will all require separate controllers given their lower quantities.

Vizir

07 Aug 2015, 23:11

I'd need the hhkb style for the f62.

wyatt8740

10 Aug 2015, 04:01

Any chance that we can get any other sizes in the future? (122 key F, for instance, would make me VERY happy. So would a 101 key or SSK-sized F)

Ellipse

10 Aug 2015, 04:50

Sorry wyatt. Given the other larger Model F sizes are relatively widely available and often sell for $120 or less, they are not economical to produce in low quantities. I would check out eBay for an F122, F107, or PC AT. An F101 would be of similar size to the relatively more plentiful F122, F107, or PC AT.

I suggest ordering an F77. The F77 is approximately an SSK-sized Model F keyboard, just without the function keys being separate keys. You can make it look like my attached photo or make the right side's 15 keys be like the layout of an SSK (Print Screen, Scroll Lock, Pause, Insert/Del/etc., cursor keys). You can program the extra key between the right alt and right ctrl on the F77 as a Function key so you can press Fn+1 for F1, etc.
DSC_5127a.jpg
DSC_5127a.jpg (223.05 KiB) Viewed 1312 times

wyatt8740

10 Aug 2015, 18:54

Ah, okay. I've never even seen a F122 on ebay, myself - only M's. I don't check every single day, and I don't know exactly what to search for, so that may be part of it... but I'll take your word for it :p

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XMIT
[ XMIT ]

10 Aug 2015, 19:27

I might have an F122 for sale soon, PM me if interested. To get it working with a modern system on USB you would need either a Soarer's Converter or a replacement controller board using xwhatsit. Search around the forum for some hints on how to do all of this.

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Muirium
µ

10 Aug 2015, 19:28

Why search when it's all right here?

http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/work ... t7192.html

Model Fs show up quite regularly on eBay. Especially the braindead layout XT:

http://deskthority.net/post247065.html#p247065

Just don't expect the sellers to call them Model F. They're usually clueless. IBM didn't print Model F on the outside of the case, so normals don't call them that.

Also:

http://deskthority.net/help-f53/please- ... t1386.html

wyatt8740

10 Aug 2015, 23:19

Ellipse wrote: I suggest ordering an F77. The F77 is approximately an SSK-sized Model F keyboard, just without the function keys being separate keys. You can make it look like my attached photo or make the right side's 15 keys be like the layout of an SSK (Print Screen, Scroll Lock, Pause, Insert/Del/etc., cursor keys). You can program the extra key between the right alt and right ctrl on the F77 as a Function key so you can press Fn+1 for F1, etc.
No thanks. I really like having dedicated keys for functions - while a SSK would be quite nice, I really don't fancy a keyboard without the dedicated home/end/page up/page down/insert/delete key cluster. It's tempting, but I'd rather go for one with a closer to standard layout. Maybe some day, though :)
Muirium wrote: Why search when it's all right here?
I do search. For 122 key F's. Not for the 'brain-dead XT layout'.
It's hard to differentiate 122 key F's from M's sometimes from ebay pics.

Added my country of residence, btw.

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Muirium
µ

10 Aug 2015, 23:21

I was talking about Soarer's Converter and the other stuff Xmit mentioned. If you search for those on DT, you'll find endless mentions of them — like this one! — rather than the goods themselves. Which is the rationale for that Best of the Workshop thread.

As for searching eBay: watch the great finds thread I linked. And take note of the dumb things sellers call their auctions. Almost no one has any clue what a Model F or a 122 key terminal board actually is. So they name them nonsense instead, which is what you'll have to search for.

wyatt8740

11 Aug 2015, 02:50

What terminals did the model F 122 key come with? I'm aware some of them were later used with M's, but I am not sure which ones were around when F's were being made. Was the 3270 one of them?

Ellipse

12 Aug 2015, 13:33

wyatt - they came with the 3179 and 3180, among others. F122s are one of my favorites - very well built.

Here's a 122 Model F from DT forum member orihalcon. It's the only one on eBay right now. It comes with a converter. It would require some replacement keys from clickykeyboards.com or Unicomp:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/301624859164

Vizir

13 Aug 2015, 02:41

Ellipse, have you got a working prototype? I am wondering what happens if the keyboard doesn't work? Since I've heard that the capacitance values are very different even if you change the case by a little...

Edit: I mean, I'm very excited but this thought just popped up in my mind.

Ellipse

13 Aug 2015, 02:44

Vizir - I will be ordering an F62 and F77 prototype including the PCB, barrels, and flippers. I just ordered the PCB prototypes a few days ago and will be ordering the rest of the parts within a week or so.

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Ratfink

14 Aug 2015, 19:27

Vizir wrote: Since I've heard that the capacitance values are very different even if you change the case by a little...
With xwhatsit's controller, that shouldn't be a problem. You can set the threshold for sensing a keypress to any value you need to make the whole keyboard work.

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Muirium
µ

14 Aug 2015, 20:41

Trouble is: that threshold is a single value that must work keyboard-wide. A bad case could still throw it off around the edges of the layout and wreak havoc.

lkong

16 Aug 2015, 00:32

I'm interested in 100pcs of barrels and flippers where can i sign up for that?

Ellipse

16 Aug 2015, 02:42

lkong - Please put 0 for quantity of each in the Google Sheets form from the first thread post and put a note in the comments about the barrels/flippers - thanks!

Do you have a project in mind?

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hammelgammler
Vintage

16 Aug 2015, 13:40

Just to know, how many people would be interested in a F77 HHKB right know?
Are there enough people to justify the additional cost? For me, four people would be enough I think. ~$25 more to have a split right shift? Sounds kind of okay to me.

Ellipse

22 Aug 2015, 04:09

Prototype PCBs should arrive on Monday! And the prototype cases should arrive in 2-3 weeks.

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Hypersphere

22 Aug 2015, 21:31

@Ellipse: Have you considered producing a new SSK, but with Model F capacitive buckling spring switches? I believe that this would really sell.

friendlyfloor40

23 Aug 2015, 04:41

Took the questionnaire.
Highly interested in this project.
Hopefully the people that Ellipse is contracting to deliver the goods will not try anything sneaky.

I gave Cyan as answer to the "color?" question. 't Is a nice and soothing color. Any opinions about the keyboard color out there ?

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