F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

NilesLinus

25 Jul 2019, 12:58

What profile are these key caps? I’ve never had an M/F before.

ryvnf

25 Jul 2019, 18:12

They all have a uniform profile. So it is possible to swap two keycaps of the same dimensions anywhere on the keyboard. But they are mounted on a curved plate, so on the keyboard they will have a slightly curved profile.

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0100010

26 Jul 2019, 02:53

So how does one order a key set?

Zimyver

26 Jul 2019, 11:45

0100010 wrote:
26 Jul 2019, 02:53
So how does one order a key set?
Keep in mind that they're only compatible with Model M/F. You get them with the keyboard, or you can buy a few separately on the store here. As far as I can tell the full set isn't sold separately, and it would be cheaper to buy the board than to buy the keys individually. You could contact Elipse and see if you can buy them as a set.

str8away

26 Jul 2019, 16:29

0100010 wrote:
26 Jul 2019, 02:53
So how does one order a key set?
You can buy a set here I believe

Humanoid

31 Jul 2019, 21:08

Ellipse wrote:
19 Jun 2019, 00:01
This means that assembly will likely finish in July despite the factory's expectations to finish around the end of June.
It's now the end of July. Has the assembly finished?

Ellipse wrote:
29 Jun 2019, 19:24
The factory is up to 800 keyboards assembled. We just reached 1700 keyboards ordered!
Have they shipped the 800 assembled keyboards? Or are they still sitting in the factory?

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FXT
XT

31 Jul 2019, 21:22

Humanoid wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 21:08
Ellipse wrote:
19 Jun 2019, 00:01
This means that assembly will likely finish in July despite the factory's expectations to finish around the end of June.
It's now the end of July. Has the assembly finished?
Ellipse wrote:
29 Jun 2019, 19:24
The factory is up to 800 keyboards assembled. We just reached 1700 keyboards ordered!
Have they shipped the 800 assembled keyboards? Or are they still sitting in the factory?
There was an update that you might have missed; assembly is expected to be completed some time in August.
Ellipse wrote:
20 Jul 2019, 19:28
The factory expects to wrap up mass assembly by mid- to late August. We had some last minute troubles with the foam packaging and boxes (I was not happy with the quality of the production samples and had them remake the samples a few times). Outside foam is finished, but the boxes need another 3 weeks.

The factory also lost some of the classic cases (!) last year during a warehouse move and only discovered the issue this year (they covered almost all of the replacement cost but I still had to cover a lot of the cost - minor price increases for the final round are likely at this point to cover all the overages).

Mass assembly of the keyboards is ongoing. I believe they are about half done.

Ellipse

31 Jul 2019, 22:41

Correct. Everything ships from the factory at the same time (some time in August). The keyboard boxes need another 2 weeks to finish more details in the recent blog posts).

For those not following the posts as closely, everything ships to me for final QC testing and dye sublimation (sublimation happening while I test and prepare an order for shipment - will not wait for all sublimation to finish). It will take a number of months to ship out everything.

Humanoid

31 Jul 2019, 22:53

How many have are we waiting for them to assemble in total?

I see these numbers:
June 19, 400 assembled;
June 26, 700 assembled, and are moving at 50 per day;
June 29, 800 assembled;
July 20, half done;

At 50 per business day, then by July 20th, that should be about 1550 assembled keyboards. If 1550 is half done, then does that mean we're waiting for them to finish 3000 keyboards?

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Mattr567

31 Jul 2019, 23:08

Ellipse wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 22:41
Correct. Everything ships from the factory at the same time (some time in August). The keyboard boxes need another 2 weeks to finish more details in the recent blog posts).

For those not following the posts as closely, everything ships to me for final QC testing and dye sublimation (sublimation happening while I test and prepare an order for shipment - will not wait for all sublimation to finish). It will take a number of months to ship out everything.
For those of us who didn't order caps, would sublimation still delay us?

Wazrach

31 Jul 2019, 23:09

Mattr567 wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 23:08
Ellipse wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 22:41
Correct. Everything ships from the factory at the same time (some time in August). The keyboard boxes need another 2 weeks to finish more details in the recent blog posts).

For those not following the posts as closely, everything ships to me for final QC testing and dye sublimation (sublimation happening while I test and prepare an order for shipment - will not wait for all sublimation to finish). It will take a number of months to ship out everything.
For those of us who didn't order caps, would sublimation still delay us?
I ordered black caps. :D

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depletedvespene

31 Jul 2019, 23:15

These latest posts remind me I need to finish and send my laundry list of extra caps. :)

Ellipse

31 Jul 2019, 23:33

Yes, keyboards ship in order of when they were ordered. I do not prioritize blank key cap keyboards.

ryvnf

31 Jul 2019, 23:39

Hi Ellipse!

Didn't get an answer for this question. Can you please clarify.
ryvnf wrote:
20 Jul 2019, 19:18
I also remember reading that international keys would be produced by Unicomp. Is that still true? Can Ellipse clarify what keys will be produced and dye-sublimated by him. And what will be done by other companies such as Unicomp?

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FXT
XT

31 Jul 2019, 23:44

Ellipse wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 23:33
Yes, keyboards ship in order of when they were ordered. I do not prioritize blank key cap keyboards.
What about low/custom serial number boards?

Ellipse

31 Jul 2019, 23:48

Yes FXT those go out first (first the single digit serials, then the low serials in date of when they were ordered (not in serial number order).

Regarding international key sets, the goal is to have nearly all of them made with the new keys but have not confirmed that yet. I think at least the following will be from the new keys:
UK
Swedish-Finnish
German
Norwegian
French

ryvnf

01 Aug 2019, 12:44

I came up with a keyboard layout for the F77. It has dedicated media-keys and nav-cluster. Function-keys and system-keys are on a function layer.

I'm not going to make this as I've ordered a F62 with HHKB layout. But I thought it was a cool use of extra/custom keycaps so I share anyways :)
keyboard-layout(3).png
keyboard-layout(3).png (32.02 KiB) Viewed 2408 times
Also I'm a bit surprised that the custom/extra keys does not include an 1U Esc keycap with ~ (tilde) as a front-legend. To my knowledge it is quite common to put tilde on a function layer over Esc. I think a keycap to reflect that would interest many people not ordering the split backspace HHKB layout, who lack a dedicated key for tilde. Like I said it doesn't affect me, but I think it is something that many people would be interested in. Probably more people than some of the 1U terminal keys offered.

Wazrach

01 Aug 2019, 13:06

Ellipse wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 23:33
I do not prioritize blank key cap keyboards.
Smile fades.

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depletedvespene

01 Aug 2019, 14:47

ryvnf wrote:
01 Aug 2019, 12:44
I came up with a keyboard layout for the F77. It has dedicated media-keys and nav-cluster. Function-keys and system-keys are on a function layer.

I'm not going to make this as I've ordered a F62 with HHKB layout. But I thought it was a cool use of extra/custom keycaps so I share anyways :)

keyboard-layout(3).png
It'll be interesting to compare what each of us will come up with, based on the same physical layout. This is what I'm intending to go with, instead:
01_diseno-final.png
Layout intended for the F77.
01_diseno-final.png (42.38 KiB) Viewed 2370 times
Volume control and a couple other things will go on the Fn layer, but I haven't decided where exactly yet; On the rightside pad, while not in numpad mode, the Tab and BackTab keys will be active only (once I figure out how to do it) if pressed alongside Ctrl and/or Alt.

NilesLinus

03 Aug 2019, 02:49

Ellipse wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 23:48
Yes FXT those go out first (first the single digit serials, then the low serials in date of when they were ordered (not in serial number order)
Ellipse: How many low serial number keyboards have been ordered? I paid for a low serial number but have a feeling I’m on the backend of that list. Just trying to get an idea of what the wait looks like now.

Thanks.

Ellipse

03 Aug 2019, 03:00

About 200

NilesLinus

03 Aug 2019, 03:57

So are we still looking at September for early serials?

Ellipse

03 Aug 2019, 04:22

Late September/early October

segacontroller

03 Aug 2019, 18:16

Humanoid wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 22:53
How many have are we waiting for them to assemble in total?

I see these numbers:
June 19, 400 assembled;
June 26, 700 assembled, and are moving at 50 per day;
June 29, 800 assembled;
July 20, half done;

At 50 per business day, then by July 20th, that should be about 1550 assembled keyboards. If 1550 is half done, then does that mean we're waiting for them to finish 3000 keyboards?
Doesn't really make sense, right? Below is post from 29-JUNE.

What are we going to do about it I guess? We will just wait and in the mail will be a keyboard at some point in time in the future.

I guess if you really want to find out, just spend more money to buy the Ellipse book.
Ellipse wrote:
29 Jun 2019, 19:24
The factory is up to 800 keyboards assembled. We just reached 1700 keyboards ordered!

Order breakdown:
F77 907
F62 412
Compact F77 240
Compact F62 141
Grand Total 1700

Ellipse

03 Aug 2019, 18:52

Correct, the factory has not made as much 100% completed keyboard assembly progress in July as they did in June due to the bottom inner assembly issue.

The factory had to remake many of the bottom inner assemblies as they were out of spec (they could not bend them back to shape accurately). The stamping tool broke and took a while to fix. Production finished on these but plating (the golden color finish) has taken longer than expected from the subcontractor. Plating will finish next week and then final assembly can resume (can't assemble and easily store hundreds of inner assemblies without the bottom inner assembly).

Unfortunately for the relatively low quantities of this project we do not get priority timing at the factories - the finishing factories are especially busy. You are correct that we are on the factories' time frame.

While the number of completed keyboards has not increased much recently, in July the factory finished as much as they could without having the remaining bottom inner assemblies, including the key sheet installation (for dye sublimation) and other small item assembly (flipper+spring assembly) so mass assembly will hopefully be able to speed up a bit for the remaining keyboards and finish by the end of August.

NilesLinus

03 Aug 2019, 22:20

Thanks Ellipse. Good to have an update.

As for the timeline—I don’t know—I’m inclined to believe there are a couple mitigating factors that affect our perception of the project:

1. We are not accustomed to being “in” on a product from the beginning of its conception. We are used to purchasing merchandise only after the production phase is long past, unseen and un-spoken of by the manufacturer. This has taught us to expect the instant gratification of modern consumer society, which we are all guilty of. Ellipse has been very transparent—and I judge honest—in pulling back the curtain and allowing us to watch the entire process, from nascent dream to fully-realized actuality. That’s worth something.

2. We are not accustomed to products made to such exacting standards, which necessarily adds time to the production cycle. (Here someone will point out that other keyboard drops have been completed in less time, but I regard the model Fs as occupying their own universe of production methodologies. This is not some snap together project built from off-the-shelf Cherry parts. This thing is a freaking historical reproduction—from scratch. Even today there are many artisanal products which have much longer lead times. How long did it take to get a bespoke suit of armor in the middle ages? This is a keyboard which will literally outlast my lifespan. What’s an extended wait time compared to that?


Admittedly, I came to the project rather late—only a year ago—so perhaps my patience has not been tried so much as others’, but I continue to believe that such a product justifies a wait time that is much longer than anything I have incurred.

And admittedly, I’m really ready to have this thing in my hands, but that’s more a function of the inherent coolness of the product than it is any failing of manufacturing processes or delays.

I don’t know Ellipse from any other stranger, but he has dealt very fairly and kindly with me offline. For that, and for the above-stated reasons, I continue to think well of the project and of the man behind it.

Ellipse: I will confess to being a little mystified as to why you would only go two rounds and then scrap many many thousands of dollars worth of moulds, not to mention a vast amount of hard-fought experience. Do you believe product demand will have waned after the second round? Isn’t it possible that keyboards in the hands of users will be their own kind of advertisement, and that multiple rounds of production would find an audience?

Peace.

ryvnf

03 Aug 2019, 22:43

I have thought about a key layout for my F62 and what extra keys to get.
f62-hhkb-pc-at.png
f62-hhkb-pc-at.png (23.52 KiB) Viewed 2031 times
I made this layout inspired by the IBM PC AT. I prefer double directional ↹ tab key and a backspace key (rather than "Delete" key). Because those keys aren't available with text legends I go for an IBM PC look. The only problem I run into is that to be consistent with the IBM PC I require a 1.75U control key labelled "Ctrl". Another reason I don't like "Control" is that it would be inconsistent with the other "Ctrl" key on the keyboard.

I would be glad if Zed and Ellipse consider printing a 1.75U key labelled "Ctrl". If that is not possible now, then later for the second round. Today "Control" mostly come with Apple keyboards while "Ctrl" has become the established label for PC keyboards. Because the IBM PC used "Ctrl" I also think it is a good idea to add for people wanting more historical accuracy or looking for a replacement key for their IBM PC keyboard.

Would introducing a 1.75U "Ctrl" key be possible? Either now or in the second round?

hitqwerty

05 Aug 2019, 01:11

I haven't ordered a keyboard yet but I want to second that request.

This project has the unique opportunity to produce 1.75 unstepped keys. Not using that to produce a Ctrl key would be a waste in my opinion.

People looking to swap Ctrl with Capslock currently only have one alternative which is Unicomp. Unicomp has worse legend quality and are stepped. Selling it as an extra key would benefit people wanting to swap Caps/Ctrl on existing Model M keyboards. It can then be ordered together with the 1.5 Capslock from the ergodox set key for a high quality swap.

And "Control" is for Mac. I have nothing against people using Mac, but for us PC folk Ctrl is were it is at! :D

Ellipse

05 Aug 2019, 02:49

The 1.75U Ctrl key is included - it is part of the HHKB set. It is currently spelled out as Control.

I'd be fine with Ctrl as an additional option if there is room on the templates.

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Zed

05 Aug 2019, 18:20

Ellipse wrote:
05 Aug 2019, 02:49
The 1.75U Ctrl key is included - it is part of the HHKB set. It is currently spelled out as Control.

I'd be fine with Ctrl as an additional option if there is room on the templates.
We have space for an additional 1.75U in the 'Extras' group. I'll add a 'Ctrl' to it.

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