F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

Gurbsordidity

12 Aug 2020, 02:42

clint wrote:
11 Aug 2020, 21:33
I'm bouncing back and forth to work 2-3 days/week, so I needed a method to transport the F77 without risk of damaging it(not like it could be damaged- more like protection for other things around it)
Picked up a mostly unused, but old, circa 1982, Samsonite attache for cheap on the 'bay. Turned out to be a really nice unit.
Added some sturdy foam and cut it to size...The foam fully encloses the keyboard without hitting any keys, it's almost like it was meant for this keyboard.

it's like new. :lol:
Ha! Literally like new. Love the case.

Been trying to think of a good dust cover for my F77 when it comes. Several weeks ago someone mentioned an aftermarket plexiglass cover that came with a different keyboard and fits the F77 perfectly. I might just saw up and screw together a five-sided wood house, but that's pretty ghetto, and I'd worry about splinters insinuating themselves into the electronics - I'm no woodworker.

Would love to hear others' ideas for a dust cover.

BucklingSprings

12 Aug 2020, 04:43

clint wrote:
11 Aug 2020, 21:33
I'm bouncing back and forth to work 2-3 days/week, so I needed a method to transport the F77 without risk of damaging it(not like it could be damaged- more like protection for other things around it)
Picked up a mostly unused, but old, circa 1982, Samsonite attache for cheap on the 'bay. Turned out to be a really nice unit.
Added some sturdy foam and cut it to size...The foam fully encloses the keyboard without hitting any keys, it's almost like it was meant for this keyboard.

modelfkeyboard-case.jpg

modelfkeyboard-case-3.png

it's like new. :lol:
modelfkeyboard-case-2.png
... this ... is ... just ... AWESOME !!

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Scarpia

12 Aug 2020, 09:10

Shihatsu wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 01:11
Some people seem to have problems with the concept of "freedom of speech" and critism.
Yes. People like you in fact. Free speech doesn’t mean what you think it does, at all.

Free speech *only* protects against government censorship or government retaliation - actual *state* suppression of free speech. It also specifically does not protect defamation or threats.

Many people however think it means freedom to spew whatever shit they like on any platform without being called out or penalized/deleted/banned there. Privately owned platforms, including Twitter, FB, Deskthority and the bulletin board at your local soccer club, are free (as in free speech) to ‘silence’ you if you’re not following their rules (or for any other reason whatsoever, like derailing a thread over a personal financial gripe).

Whether Wobbled’s posts constitute a ‘protest’ doesn’t matter, anyone is free to express their disapproval and the mods are free to take action against him because this is not a government run forum.


I urge you (and anyone else who is not clear about the legal definition of freedom of speech) to take a moment to educate yourself on freedom of expression, as it is a truly fascinating topic:

http://www.history.com/.amp/topics/unit ... -of-speech

Shihatsu

12 Aug 2020, 10:32

You are thinking I am speaking of the "Freedom of speech" of the laws of the US of A - which I do not and never will. I am speaking of the "Recht auf freihe Meinungsäußerung" - in my country it is illegal in most cases to suppress others opinions, as it is considered censorship, which is strictly forbidden. So excuse me, freedom of speech means EXACTLY what I was talking about in my country - the US of A matters not for me.
And I know that this is a private platform which can make its own rules - but one that has strictly protected all kinds of criticism and free speaking of opinions. Is your argument "stop that, DT" or what do you want me to tell? Would surprise me MUCH, from all that I know of DT. Would make me leave this place.

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wobbled

12 Aug 2020, 11:21

jwegman wrote:
10 Aug 2020, 16:38
@wobbled

You've said your piece, multiple times. Stating it again isn't going to further contribute anything for this particular thread topic (of which I keenly have specific interest).

Please consider starting a new thread (in which I can blissfully ignore "whatever" is flung around there).

Regardless, it belongs not here. Please respect that.
no.

User avatar
kbdfr
The Tiproman

12 Aug 2020, 11:24

Shihatsu wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 10:32
You are thinking I am speaking of the "Freedom of speech" of the laws of the US of A - which I do not and never will. I am speaking of the "Recht auf freihe Meinungsäußerung" - in my country it is illegal in most cases to suppress others opinions, as it is considered censorship, which is strictly forbidden. So excuse me, freedom of speech means EXACTLY what I was talking about in my country - the US of A matters not for me.
And I know that this is a private platform which can make its own rules - but one that has strictly protected all kinds of criticism and free speaking of opinions. Is your argument "stop that, DT" or what do you want me to tell? Would surprise me MUCH, from all that I know of DT. Would make me leave this place.
Sorry to have to contradict you about your first argument.
The "Recht auf freie Meinungsäußerung" is one of the Fundamental rights, which express what the State cannot deny its citizens. Censorship (in the same article of the German Fundamental Law) is also an interdiction put to the State, not to private entities.
It is perfectly legal (both in the USA and in Germany) to run a private newspaper or a private website and select both the content and the comments you publish, i.e. to exercise factual "censorship".
In Germany there is one notable exception to the "Recht auf freie Meinungsäußerung" (as permitted by §5(2) GG): publicly denying the Holocaust (§130(3) StGB). This also applies to many other European countries.

Regarding your second argument however, I do agree. DT is no place where anyone should be silenced, which of course means wobbled should be free to express his opinion and others to disagree with it. I would simply urge them (as I have done previously) to challenge his opinion, not to denigrate him for expressing it.

One more thing: I am extremely proud of having been able to de-lurk webwit :mrgreen:

andrewjoy

12 Aug 2020, 12:11

Scarpia wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 09:10


Yes. People like you in fact. Free speech doesn’t mean what you think it does, at all.

Free speech *only* protects against government censorship or government retaliation - actual *state* suppression of free speech. It also specifically does not protect defamation or threats.

Many people however think it means freedom to spew whatever shit they like on any platform without being called out or penalized/deleted/banned there. Privately owned platforms, including Twitter, FB, Deskthority and the bulletin board at your local soccer club, are free (as in free speech) to ‘silence’ you if you’re not following their rules (or for any other reason whatsoever, like derailing a thread over a personal financial gripe).

The whole "private platform" argument has been spouted again and again and again by people who say "i belive in free speech , but ......."

The big platforms are pretty much the public square now so they should not be the judge jury and executioner of what is ok and what is not.

Your attitude would change very quickly if you where the one being censored.

If something is not illegal spam or targeted harassment its fair game.
Shihatsu wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 10:32
in my country it is illegal in most cases to suppress others opinions
No your government ( like mine in the UK ) does that by making certain speech illegal... you know like in bloody China or North Korea

User avatar
kbdfr
The Tiproman

12 Aug 2020, 12:43

andrewjoy wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 12:11
[…]
Shihatsu wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 10:32
in my country it is illegal in most cases to suppress others opinions
No your government ( like mine in the UK ) does that by making certain speech illegal... you know like in bloody China or North Korea
Please kindly provide a few examples of speech made illegal by the German or UK governments.
I’d be interested in a halfway factual basis for a comparison with "bloody China or North Korea" :lol:

User avatar
Wodan
ISO Advocate

12 Aug 2020, 13:04

What do you guys think ...?

Is this still kbdfr posting on DT or did his Tipro become self aware, fighting the eternal battle for him while he‘s chilling out in southern France?

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

12 Aug 2020, 13:31

kbdfr wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 11:24
[…] One more thing: I am extremely proud of having been able to de-lurk webwit :mrgreen:
… and Wodan :mrgreen:
Wodan wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 13:04
What do you guys think ...?

Is this still kbdfr posting on DT or did his Tipro become self aware, fighting the eternal battle for him while he‘s chilling out in southern France?

helohe

12 Aug 2020, 14:37

kbdfr wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 12:43
andrewjoy wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 12:11
[…]
Shihatsu wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 10:32
in my country it is illegal in most cases to suppress others opinions
No your government ( like mine in the UK ) does that by making certain speech illegal... you know like in bloody China or North Korea
Please kindly provide a few examples of speech made illegal by the German or UK governments.
I’d be interested in a halfway factual basis for a comparison with "bloody China or North Korea" :lol:
Several video games are/were censored in germany or banned. This may or may not have changed meanwhile.
Most of the censorship meant placing an age restriction on the game, which essentially stopped distribution of that media in most shops.
(There is quite a lot of information about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Germany)

helohe

12 Aug 2020, 14:48

Maybe this has been asked before, but considering IBM released their font IBM Plex to the public (creative commons license I guess),
is there any plan to rewrite the manual in this font? I could assist typesetting it in LaTeX in my spare time.

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darkcruix

12 Aug 2020, 14:55

helohe wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 14:48
Maybe this has been asked before, but considering IBM released their font IBM Plex to the public (creative commons license I guess),
is there any plan to rewrite the manual in this font? I could assist typesetting it in LaTeX in my spare time.
I would be super interested in it.
While the handbook contains a lot of references to youtube and forum entries, I can imagine that it still would be great to write it with those links in the footnotes and re-write the most valuable items for the manual.
:::The best would be, if there would be drawings like in the 1980ies handbooks ...
I definitely would purchase it in a printed format (ring binding?) ... :)

Gurbsordidity

12 Aug 2020, 16:56

Scarpia's right. Free speech is more nuanced than some here suppose. The webpage Scarpia linked to is an interesting read and gives US examples that generalize to other state regimes.

Freedom of speech is on a continuum. Our modern legal standard establishes that some forms of speech are so grievous as to merit the death penalty - incitement to genocide in the case of Julius Streicher at Nuremberg. Hate speech is criminal in many or all democratic countries. And then we have defamation and other harmful but non-criminal forms of speech adjudicated under civil or common law.

The old legal model applies of rights versus freedoms: I am free to say whatever I like to the extent it does not infringe on your right not to be unduly harmed by what I say.

But these arguments about free speech are purely academic. People here are simply persuading others to believe or to disbelieve, to stay or to go. No one here has the power to censor wobbled by banning him from this thread, or if they do, I'm sure wobbled has done nothing to contravene deskthority's terms and conditions.

And when he attacks Ellipse - someone I greatly admire and respect - on dishonest grounds for his own selfish or petty ends, I'm glad I can defend Ellipse and express my displeasure here without fear of censorship.

John Doe

12 Aug 2020, 18:03

Prefer to see more passion about keyboards, probably stop somewhere.🤔🤔🤔

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darkcruix

12 Aug 2020, 19:04

Even there is no update about the dye - sub process (we heard it is moving along quite well), I wanted to share that I am loving my new Model F Keyboards, but I find my self made interim keys horrible ...
IMG_0884.jpg
IMG_0884.jpg (2.04 MiB) Viewed 1190 times
On a secondary note: I finished restoring my F122 (while I need a working controller for it to complete it).
On a tertiary note: I want a 4978 BeamSpring / Beamship ;)

kmnov2017

12 Aug 2020, 19:23

darkcruix wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 19:04
On a secondary note: I finished restoring my F122 (while I need a working controller for it to complete it).
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=23406&hilit=through+hole+xwhatsit

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Mattr567

12 Aug 2020, 20:36

I see a lot of people have gotten solenoid drivers but I ordered one on July 31st but haven't received any update/reply on its status. I'm not aware of any delay for those?

helohe

12 Aug 2020, 23:10

darkcruix wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 14:55
helohe wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 14:48
Maybe this has been asked before, but considering IBM released their font IBM Plex to the public (creative commons license I guess),
is there any plan to rewrite the manual in this font? I could assist typesetting it in LaTeX in my spare time.
I would be super interested in it.
While the handbook contains a lot of references to youtube and forum entries, I can imagine that it still would be great to write it with those links in the footnotes and re-write the most valuable items for the manual.
:::The best would be, if there would be drawings like in the 1980ies handbooks ...
I definitely would purchase it in a printed format (ring binding?) ... :)

I just did a quick test by copy/paste-ing the first chapter and generating a book. Not really sure what the license of the manual is (ie. if it is allowed to use it like that) But it should be more or less straightforward to create a template/script to generate the book from the online manual.

Of course graphics and so on would have to be generated by hand. But that would be cool of course.

I created a repository here: https://github.com/helohe/modelfmanual
anyone can clone and edit it.

OxC0FFEE

12 Aug 2020, 23:10

helohe wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 14:48
Maybe this has been asked before, but considering IBM released their font IBM Plex to the public (creative commons license I guess),
is there any plan to rewrite the manual in this font? I could assist typesetting it in LaTeX in my spare time.
*please* do this. This would be amazing.

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Hypersphere

12 Aug 2020, 23:41

@Gurbsordidity: I mentioned in a fairly recent post that the medium-size plexiglass "roofs" formerly sold by the now-defunct Elite Keyboard company fit perfectly on a F62 standard-case keyboard. I think that the full-size covers might fit the standard-case F77, but I have not tried this.

@darkcruix: I think if you remove your hand-made labels, you will quickly learn the HHKB layout so that you will not require any guides for the cursor and other navigation keys. Nevertheless, I still sometimes use keycaps of different colors to light up my cursor, Fn, and Esc keys, mostly as aesthetic accents.

Gurbsordidity

13 Aug 2020, 00:02

Hypersphere wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 23:41
@Gurbsordidity: I mentioned in a fairly recent post that the medium-size plexiglass "roofs" formerly sold by the now-defunct Elite Keyboard company fit perfectly on a F62 standard-case keyboard. I think that the full-size covers might fit the standard-case F77, but I have not tried this.
Right! Thanks, Hypersphere. I'll hunt for one. Willing to buy one if only to try it. If it works I'll report here.

User avatar
FXT
XT

13 Aug 2020, 00:12

Does anyone else have issues with the plastic key stabilizers? To clarify, they work fine on most of my keys, except my backspace. The key actuates fine if it's pressed on center, but binds on off center key presses.
https://youtu.be/7KSPlgPKRvU

I also have been unable to get the xwhatsit software to launch. I'm on the latest version of Windows 10 and had no trouble using it before with an xwhatsit converted F122.
esc.PNG
esc.PNG (50.28 KiB) Viewed 1024 times

Ellipse

13 Aug 2020, 07:03

Mattr567 - sorry for the delay - just mailed out your solenoid driver! As a general note everyone will receive a tracking number by email when something is shipping.

FXT did you see the newly posted manual which discusses suggestions to mitigate the binding of larger keys? Now available at www.ModelFKeyboards.com/manual Please do share your results and let me know if you tried anything else that works, so I can add to the manual.

FXT since I switched the keyboard firmware over to QMK, that is what many recently mailed keyboards may be running, especially if your keyboard was mailed out in recent weeks. You can check Windows Devices and Printers I believe. The xwhatsit utility won't launch in those cases. To switch back to xwhatsit I have posted instructions in the above manual. Also feel free to request access to the QMK beta. QMK works by flashing the firmware and layout all at once. The editing of the layouts is done on a web site instead of a standalone program.

If anyone else wants the solenoid driver mailed out before the solenoids are in stock later this year (with the second container shipment) please let me know or make a note "ship ASAP" in the order notes text box when placing an order.

clint I like your Model F case! It has the right vintage look, appropriate for the keyboard inside. I was actually looking up cases with protective foam for these new keyboards from factories in China a few years back but did not find much interest in a group buy.

Gurbsordidity for dust covers I have used the Fight Computer Dust Antistatic Vinyl Keyboard Cover (Keyboard Cover: 20W x2H x9D-Large) for my buckling spring keyboards. It is a soft cover. I was looking through my old emails and it looks like tomorrow will actually be 7 years since I ordered it, and it has remained in good shape without discoloration or other damage. I added a thick copper wire around the bottom to give it some more structure for ease of removal and installation.

helohe I would definitely consider updating my printed manual's font to IBM's open source font as well as a future PDF of the detailed manual on the project web site. I see 10 options in the OpenType ZIP file. Which ones are recommended? Since it's in Microsoft Word, I can easily change the fonts for entire groups of text at once.

If anyone would like to volunteer any artwork to the detailed manual it would be appreciated! Maybe it will expand from just being on the web site.

darkcruix the update on the dye sub is that the factory is mailing me some samples in the next week or so that they have made with the initial prototype jig. The alignment is still needing of improvement. The dye sublimation continues to take longer than expected unfortunately. I am continuing to mail out keyboards earlier, with printed keys to ship later. I still have about 50+ keyboards in the current queue to send out.

Thanks everyone for the recent days of discussions here. Very interesting reading. I think all of the points have been expressed well by everyone who has been posting. I'm not inclined to express any further notes publicly on the subjects at hand, but I will state that I believe a Brand New Blue Box SSK is far rarer than a used Industrial SSK (which I have sold for $1000-$1500) based on the number of units of each of these keyboards that I have seen listed online, but the relative valuation and how much rarer would be a private discussion between me and an interested party. Out of respect for the privacy of the buyer I would not expect to disclose the final sale price unless the transaction were a Buy It Now or Auction on eBay where the display of pricing and bids would be out of my hands. There are many new brown box SSK's manufactured years after the blue box units that sell for far less and are relatively more plentiful. The only NIB Industrial SSK sold for $2,000 on eBay in early 2014 but that was before IBM keyboard pricing skyrocketed in recent years.

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darkcruix

13 Aug 2020, 09:21

Ellipse wrote:
13 Aug 2020, 07:03
...
helohe I would definitely consider updating my printed manual's font to IBM's open source font as well as a future PDF of the detailed manual on the project web site. I see 10 options in the OpenType ZIP file. Which ones are recommended? Since it's in Microsoft Word, I can easily change the fonts for entire groups of text at once.

If anyone would like to volunteer any artwork to the detailed manual it would be appreciated! Maybe it will expand from just being on the web site.
...

The original IBM Hardware Manual has a beautiful vintage design and was delivered (plastic wrapped) to be added to a binder that was included. I can imagine there would be a considerable group who would be paying for the manual when it is in such a design.
The drawings were made by hand for the most part, as shown on page 34 and 35 below:
Web Pages have the tendency to change or get shut down. A printed and plastic wrapped original would be fantastic to keep as record.
Original IBM PC Hardware Manual - page 35

My drawing skills are miserable (like a first grader), but I am sure someone can help getting drawings like the below done:
Keyboard.png
Keyboard.png (203.55 KiB) Viewed 892 times

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zrrion

13 Aug 2020, 15:46

If you want art you need to pay an artist. Asking for free art is kinda shitty.

kmnov2017

13 Aug 2020, 16:04

Something like this ?
Sketch_1597327396372.jpg
Sketch_1597327396372.jpg (237.6 KiB) Viewed 786 times

helohe

13 Aug 2020, 16:21

kmnov2017 wrote:
13 Aug 2020, 16:04
Something like this ?

Sketch_1597327396372.jpg
Tried to emulate the same using edge-detection and converting to binary. However my edge detection algorithm sucks.
DSC_8522_.png
DSC_8522_.png (63.97 KiB) Viewed 772 times

Zcool31

13 Aug 2020, 18:27

Here's my attempt.
ModelF.png
ModelF.png (86.59 KiB) Viewed 719 times

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ddrfraser1

13 Aug 2020, 19:41

These all look cool. I would hang this stuff on my wall and frame it. Anyone want to make one of the 107? :D

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