F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

DrivenKeys

14 Jan 2021, 03:21

Ellipse wrote:
14 Jan 2021, 00:59
Any recommendations on removing stuck new Model F stabilizer inserts, outside of opening up the keyboard to push it out? These are more solidly secured in the barrels and tougher to remove than original inserts. Maybe hand / non-electric drilling and pulling out the drill+insert might work but it is risky that it would go too far.

I was imagining that some kind of pliers tool was out there where squeezing the pliers would slightly expand and allow a tighter grip on the inside of the stabilizer insert. The straight tip lock ring / snap ring pliers I looked at might work if they are small enough:

https://www.amazon.com/SK-Tools-SKT-763 ... 00061SMZI/
https://www.amazon.com/Wilde-Tool-G407- ... 00HRY1UEW/
https://www.amazon.com/Wilde-Tool-G407- ... 08GYKSBZW/
https://www.amazon.com/Lang-Tools-KAS14 ... 07PDGYXJ9/
https://www.amazon.com/JONNESWAY-AI0400 ... 08D9T9519/
Just a little earlier, we were discussing the Qtip method. My left shift insert was incredibly stubborn. I spent 15 minutes jamming in, twisting/manipulating/pulling two generic qtips with plastic handles until the damned thing finally relented. I was moments away from opening up the board before it worked.

I believe the trick is to get your first qtip just a bit further beyond the sleeve, then jam the second one in, so that it pushes the first one sideways, creating sort of a 'lip' that grabs the sleeve properly, then pulling up only on the first qtip. At least that's what I was imagining as I finally got it to work.

It should also be possible to find a flat head nail small enough to fit in the hole. Then, firmly gripping the nail with pliers, insert the nail upside down through and beyond the sleeve, then shift it sideways to 'hook' the head against the bottom of the sleeve, then pull up. My nails at home were too short, so I didn't try it.

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darkcruix

14 Jan 2021, 19:13

I have tried a ton of things and even tried to make my own tools, but couldn't get it working. The Qtip method didn't work for me, I am afraid. So, if there is consistent luck with anything, I would love to know the method / tool, so I can add it to the technical manual...

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darkcruix

14 Jan 2021, 19:16

I can imagine people will facepalm now!
I drilled holes into the case of a brand new F77.

This is not a recommendation - it destroys the original design. Other options to show lock lights are to shine an LED from underneath the numpad.

Just wanted to share the outcome ... and I do enjoy the vintage look.
IMG_4421.JPG
IMG_4421.JPG (3.06 MiB) Viewed 1071 times
Last edited by darkcruix on 14 Jan 2021, 20:08, edited 1 time in total.

John Doe

14 Jan 2021, 19:36

Oh, no...

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Scarpia

14 Jan 2021, 21:17

@darkcruix: Do what you want, it’s your keyboard and anyone who has a problem with it can go order themselves a brand new F77 and keep it NIB up their ass.

I put a simple IBM sticker on mine to honor its heritage and some people lost their minds over it. Don’t worry about it. Those LEDs look neat, I like the colors you went with.

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digital_matthew

14 Jan 2021, 21:22

I think it looks awesome, darkcruix. It's a really thoughtful and tasteful mod.

Jan Pospisil

14 Jan 2021, 21:29

I quite like it, and would enjoy the practical use of it, not just the look.

DrivenKeys

14 Jan 2021, 22:15

darkcruix wrote:
14 Jan 2021, 19:13
I have tried a ton of things and even tried to make my own tools, but couldn't get it working. The Qtip method didn't work for me, I am afraid. So, if there is consistent luck with anything, I would love to know the method / tool, so I can add it to the technical manual...
I just looked over the parts and tolerances, and I'm almost certain that the upside down nail technique probably won't work, it's too tight down there.
Last edited by DrivenKeys on 15 Jan 2021, 01:05, edited 1 time in total.

DrivenKeys

14 Jan 2021, 22:19

@darkcruix I like the lock lights addition. Your mod looks very 1980's, as do those awesome caps. I don't think any passerby would think it wasn't stock. If it bothers you that much, Ellipse does have extra cases. I was considering getting a spare for repaint.

I'm really interested in how you got the lock lights functional, I'd like to develop an addition myself.
Last edited by DrivenKeys on 15 Jan 2021, 01:08, edited 2 times in total.

DrivenKeys

14 Jan 2021, 22:39

Scarpia wrote:
14 Jan 2021, 21:17
I put a simple IBM sticker on mine to honor its heritage and some people lost their minds over it. Don’t worry about it. Those LEDs look neat, I like the colors you went with.
Yeah, that was flippin ridiculous. Ellipse is very clear it's an homage to IBM's decades of research, recreating the pinnacle of design from a lost era. No matter how anyone feels about unrelated executives' later actions, this Model F is the culmination of many people dedicating their lives to computing history. Even if new computers can't include an American manufactured, zinc encased buckling spring masterpiece, the influences created here can be felt in almost every keyboard today. That deserves historical respect.

I don't like that Ford now makes makes cars outside of our country, but I'm not going to pull the Ford badge off a '64.5 Mustang, nor a perfect recreation.

Ellipse deserves the same respect for his tireless work. He seems to have adopted the buckling spring diagram as this project's logo, so I'm putting a couple of those keys on each of my boards, which will also wear custom IBM logos.

photometer

14 Jan 2021, 23:29

darkcruix wrote:
14 Jan 2021, 19:16
I can imagine people will facepalm now!
I drilled holes into the case of a brand new F77.

This is not a recommendation - it destroys the original design. Other options to show lock lights are to shine an LED from underneath the numpad.

Just wanted to share the outcome ... and I do enjoy the vintage look.
IMG_4421.JPG
I assume you are using relegendable keys. Do you have the template for those so I can print my key legends too.

DrivenKeys

15 Jan 2021, 01:28

darkcruix wrote:
14 Jan 2021, 19:13
I have tried a ton of things and even tried to make my own tools, but couldn't get it working. The Qtip method didn't work for me, I am afraid. So, if there is consistent luck with anything, I would love to know the method / tool, so I can add it to the technical manual...
Ok, so I may have found some tools that could be adapted for removing stab inserts: Miniature internal bearing pullers, which appear to be used in rc hobbies. The holes in our inserts are a bit less than 5mm, and there appear to be some custom tools that could help. Unfortunately, the only one I can find still for sale at this moment is almost as expensive as this keyboard, but it's something that does exist, and we might be able to find some. I've only been searching for a little while.

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Scarpia

15 Jan 2021, 08:58

DrivenKeys wrote:
14 Jan 2021, 22:39
Ellipse deserves the same respect for his tireless work. He seems to have adopted the buckling spring diagram as this project's logo, so I'm putting a couple of those keys on each of my boards, which will also wear custom IBM logos.
For sure — I will definitely put Ellipses logo keycap(s) on mine (whether that’s the buckling spring or F77 or something else entirely).

@Ellipse: could you post the link to the base keysets? I want to make sure I’ve ordered whatever special legends you’re making.

DrivenKeys

15 Jan 2021, 11:36

@Scarpia Here's a link to his Custom Legend Keycaps page:

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product ... d-keycaps/

You can find the switch logo by scrolling down to "Novelties". You can also scroll further down to see the entire base set, which will only include the 1u 0ins key if included in a keyboard. If you buy an extra set, you must order that 0ins from this page as well (if you're going numpad).

Razerban

16 Jan 2021, 23:24

darkcruix wrote:
14 Jan 2021, 19:16
I can imagine people will facepalm now!
I drilled holes into the case of a brand new F77.

This is not a recommendation - it destroys the original design. Other options to show lock lights are to shine an LED from underneath the numpad.

Just wanted to share the outcome ... and I do enjoy the vintage look.
IMG_4421.JPG
Nice and clean job.
What I like more, are the black on white legends on those relegendable keycaps.
Do you happen to have the template you used to print those ?

User avatar
darkcruix

17 Jan 2021, 12:46

Razerban wrote:
16 Jan 2021, 23:24
darkcruix wrote:
14 Jan 2021, 19:16
I can imagine people will facepalm now!
I drilled holes into the case of a brand new F77.

This is not a recommendation - it destroys the original design. Other options to show lock lights are to shine an LED from underneath the numpad.

Just wanted to share the outcome ... and I do enjoy the vintage look.
IMG_4421.JPG
Nice and clean job.
What I like more, are the black on white legends on those relegendable keycaps.
Do you happen to have the template you used to print those ?
ClearKeyCap_Template.svg.zip
(14.75 KiB) Downloaded 18 times

Razerban

17 Jan 2021, 12:59

Thanks man! I really appreciate it.

Ellipse

18 Jan 2021, 18:06

darkcruix would you mind sharing a Bill of Materials for your LED mod? I think it may interest some new Model F owners.

Stabilizer insert removal: Another alternative suggested by a geekhack forum member is to use a wood screw of appropriate size:  "I placed the screw inside the stabilizer, turned it a few times and pulled the screw and stabilizer out with a pair of pliers."

I ordered the pliers and will post an update after I receive and test them.

I wonder why IBM did not put a logo on their 4704 production model keyboards (one promotional photo seemed to show logos):
4704 Keyboards 2.jpg
4704 Keyboards 2.jpg (53.37 KiB) Viewed 393 times

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Scarpia

18 Jan 2021, 19:59

The screw-in-stabilizer method ought to work; I actually used the same method just last week to extract a broken-off stem that was completely stuck inside an Alps switch:
74F60A23-736C-4461-8BBA-A41969B47141.jpeg
74F60A23-736C-4461-8BBA-A41969B47141.jpeg (275.4 KiB) Viewed 358 times
However, the screw is bound to chew up the inside of the stabilizer, so it won’t be perfectly smooth - and possibly unusable - afterwards.

DrivenKeys

Yesterday, 01:34

Ellipse wrote:
18 Jan 2021, 18:06
darkcruix would you mind sharing a Bill of Materials for your LED mod? I think it may interest some new Model F owners.
I'd really like to know how to add the functionality.
Ellipse wrote:
18 Jan 2021, 18:06
Stabilizer insert removal: Another alternative suggested by a geekhack forum member is to use a wood screw of appropriate size:  "I placed the screw inside the stabilizer, turned it a few times and pulled the screw and stabilizer out with a pair of pliers."
Lol, I misunderstood. I thought we were trying to preserve the insert. There are a hundred ways to do it with damage. That screw will definitely scratch it up. I think it could be possible to roll up some paper to be the right size to fit in the hole, with almost no hole in the middle, then drive a screw into that, expanding the paper insert to grip the sleeve more tightly than a qtip can.
Ellipse wrote:
18 Jan 2021, 18:06
I wonder why IBM did not put a logo on their 4704 production model keyboards (one promotional photo seemed to show logos):
4704 Keyboards 2.jpg
If I understand correctly, these were never consumer products, correct? I can see the point of leaving it off, especially with such a svelte design, plus the computer it served likely had tasteful badging already.

DrivenKeys

Yesterday, 02:00

Here's a quick collage I put together on my phone of how to make the (hopefully) damage-free insert remover I just mentioned.
20210118_165419.jpeg
20210118_165419.jpeg (127.99 KiB) Viewed 289 times
The paper is a post it, I'm not sure where the screw came from or what size it is, but you get the idea.

1. cut and roll the paper to the correct size, insert it into the sleeve
2. While holding the paper insert with pliers, turn the screw so that it drives into the sleeve
3. Once tight, grip the screw head with pliers and pull it out

I hope this helps anybody with issues. My first impression is that this grips better than qtips. I'm also willing to bet it will work better with more coarse paper.

Sorry about the big image, I reduced the image size, but I don't know how to tell the forum to display it properly.

OxC0FFEE

Yesterday, 02:46

DrivenKeys wrote:
14 Jan 2021, 00:31
I just wanted everyone to know: If you order custom keys ($4/ea), you can have the 1u keys made with the homing nub. I just emailed Ellipse to confirm, and was happy to learn this is possible. As I'm customizing my meta and function key layout, I realized how useful this would be, and I'm excited to be able to personalize to such a fine point.
@ellipse, is this true? If yes I'd love to have not only the standard homing bumps on f and j but also one on the 5 in the numpad portion.

DrivenKeys

Yesterday, 04:15

@OxC0FFEE I'm willing to bet the numpad 5 already has a nub, as the base set is essentially a stock Model M set. I don't think you can customize the base set, either. So, if you wanted a nub on, say the Home key, you'd have to order that additional Home key.

DrivenKeys

Yesterday, 10:02

Can anybody recommend a usb-c adapter/hub for Android phones? I have one with hdmi, 2x usb-a, and charge. It worked perfectly with Samsung, but with my LG G8, usb doesn't work. I wouldn't be surprised if Samsung's older Dex was more developed for laptop standards, and my adapter is more for laptops than newer Android phones.

LG is more vanilla Android, so I was wondering if maybe some non-Samsung Android users might have some experience using this keyboard with their phone. It's the only feature missing for 80% of my computing to move away from my gaming laptop, so I'm ready to find a new adapter soon.

sundude

Yesterday, 10:30

Ellipse wrote:
05 Jan 2021, 18:02
Jan, you do not need to disassemble the inner assembly to get to the space bar. That was only the case with the XT type Model F keyboards. The new Model F keyboards use Model M type space bars which can be removed more easily.

Yes the cables can be swapped. You'll probably want to wait until your keyboard arrives before ordering the cable as the internal connectors vary between USB C and micro USB. There's no way to guarantee one or the other unless you purchase a spare controller (all of which are USB C) and do the soldering yourself (this service is not offered by me). However, almost all of the compact case models are USB-C but the space for the connector is narrow, so not all cables will work.
Is there anyway to guarantee a USB-C Keyboard when ordering? I'm just planning to put one for Ultra Compact F62 in but I'm hesitant in my soldering skills.

Ellipse

Yesterday, 17:11

sundude the compact case keyboards are USB-C. Feel free to add an order note for me to double check.

OxC0FFEE as confirmed by DrivenKeys the 5 num pad key has the nub. But yes the 1U nub key will fit in the 1U key on the jig so any 1U key can be a 1U key with nub.

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