F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

Ellipse

21 Sep 2017, 03:30

Yes, feel free to order extras and I will combine them with your current orders. You can choose free/other shipping if you'd like.

Shihatsu

21 Sep 2017, 10:18

Could one swap the compact case with the ordinary case?

Ellipse

21 Sep 2017, 12:59

Yes that can be done. It involves taking apart the keyboard and switching the bottom inner assembly plate. All other inner components are the same.

Shihatsu

21 Sep 2017, 15:16

Expect an order of me. Ellipse, y u so sadistical towards my wallet. It cries!

jmg2

21 Sep 2017, 17:22

is there anything in the works to develop a f107 keyboard? I'm looking for a new fullsize to replace one of my northgates.


On that note-- to anyone that can chime in on this -- how does the action on an F compare to a northgate? I was lucky enough to find an original omnimac ultra (basically an ultra with mac keys that I was able to swap out) still brand new in the packaging. I'm looking for something similar, I've been told that the "f" action is not very different from low-use northgates. any comparisons?

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Techno Trousers
100,000,000 actuations

21 Sep 2017, 17:52

jmg2 wrote: to anyone that can chime in on this -- how does the action on an F compare to a northgate? ... I've been told that the "f" action is not very different from low-use northgates. any comparisons?
Northgate keyboards used blue or white Alps switches, which are clicky and tactile. The Model F's capacitive buckling spring is also clicky and tactile. However, Alps switches have a very high tactile point, almost at the very top of the travel. For the Model F, the tactile point is where the spring buckles, more like 1/3 of the way into the travel.

To me they don't feel the same, but they both feel satisfying for full speed touch typing, if that makes sense. I personally prefer the Model F feel if I had to choose one over the other, but of course it's a matter of personal preference.

jmg2

22 Sep 2017, 20:24

Techno Trousers wrote:
jmg2 wrote: to anyone that can chime in on this -- how does the action on an F compare to a northgate? ... I've been told that the "f" action is not very different from low-use northgates. any comparisons?
Northgate keyboards used blue or white Alps switches, which are clicky and tactile. The Model F's capacitive buckling spring is also clicky and tactile. However, Alps switches have a very high tactile point, almost at the very top of the travel. For the Model F, the tactile point is where the spring buckles, more like 1/3 of the way into the travel.

To me they don't feel the same, but they both feel satisfying for full speed touch typing, if that makes sense. I personally prefer the Model F feel if I had to choose one over the other, but of course it's a matter of personal preference.
ok, thanks. That's very helpful.
I may stick with my northgate then ... I love the full size, dual keypads/dual function keys, I'd hate to give that up. If they start tooling up for an f107 though, I'm in.

jmg2

25 Sep 2017, 00:43

Techno Trousers wrote:
jmg2 wrote: to anyone that can chime in on this -- how does the action on an F compare to a northgate? ... I've been told that the "f" action is not very different from low-use northgates. any comparisons?
Northgate keyboards used blue or white Alps switches, which are clicky and tactile. The Model F's capacitive buckling spring is also clicky and tactile. However, Alps switches have a very high tactile point, almost at the very top of the travel. For the Model F, the tactile point is where the spring buckles, more like 1/3 of the way into the travel.

To me they don't feel the same, but they both feel satisfying for full speed touch typing, if that makes sense. I personally prefer the Model F feel if I had to choose one over the other, but of course it's a matter of personal preference.
ok, thanks. That's very helpful.
I may stick with my northgate then ... I love the full size, dual keypads/dual function keys, I'd hate to give that up. If they start tooling up for an f107 though, I'm in.

Ellipse

27 Sep 2017, 05:53

The material lab has successfully analyzed the springs and the material is now confirmed!

The US spring manufacturer and I were quite off with the material selection for the first samples which may have caused them to sound "off." I expect to order another round of samples with the confirmed material and then production on the springs can start.

Seems like some firms still manufacture this type of material so we are in luck.

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Mattr567

27 Sep 2017, 06:12

Ellipse wrote: The material lab has successfully analyzed the springs and the material is now confirmed!

The US spring manufacturer and I were quite off with the material selection for the first samples which may have caused them to sound "off." I expect to order another round of samples with the confirmed material and then production on the springs can start.

Seems like some firms still manufacture this type of material so we are in luck.
Nice to see an update.

What kind of material is it?

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Elrick

27 Sep 2017, 07:15

Ellipse wrote: The US spring manufacturer and I were quite off with the material selection for the first samples which may have caused them to sound "off." I expect to order another round of samples with the confirmed material and then production on the springs can start.

Seems like some firms still manufacture this type of material so we are in luck.
The whole switch mechanism relies upon those humble springs, so it's looking more and more like a 100% authentic manufacture of this Model-F keyboard, never seen or done before.

You need to get it done right, if it's to perform on every desk around the World.

Ellipse

29 Sep 2017, 23:43

We are still in the early bird round due to factory production delays. I am hoping things wrap up and ship around year end and early next year.

As a note everyone who orders is part of the early bird round for now. The low serial option does put you at #50 or so instead of #850 or so and it helps cover production overrun costs.

Unfortunately the factory will be resuming production after their weeklong national holiday coming up. They did not make much progress this month which was disappointing.

yac

01 Oct 2017, 01:30

Mattr567 wrote: What kind of material is it?
+1

I'm also super curious to know what material they used.

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Elrick

01 Oct 2017, 07:20

yac wrote:
Mattr567 wrote: What kind of material is it?
+1

I'm also super curious to know what material they used.
Yeah, super interested in knowing what are the exact ingredients involved in making these very rare springs?

For years, no one knew the make up of them hence it was surrounded with a lot of Myth and Magic, when it came to this vital piece of hardware.

Ellipse, you NEED to spill the beans on the composition of these springs so that everyone will know this vital fact, that has been hidden from the public, like some national secret 8-) .

yac

02 Oct 2017, 00:09

Elrick, i can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. This is deskthority after all. ;)

My money is on 5160 Spring Steel, IBM knew their metallurgy and nothing but the best was good enough.

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wobbled

02 Oct 2017, 00:20

yac wrote: Elrick, i can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. This is deskthority after all. ;)

My money is on 5160 Spring Steel, IBM knew their metallurgy and nothing but the best was good enough.
Elrick is just one of those semi psycho dudes that are passionate about everything :lol: Gotta admire him!

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Elrick

02 Oct 2017, 05:07

wobbled wrote:
yac wrote: Elrick, i can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. This is deskthority after all. ;)

My money is on 5160 Spring Steel, IBM knew their metallurgy and nothing but the best was good enough.
Elrick is just one of those semi psycho dudes that are passionate about everything :lol: Gotta admire him!
Don't forget, my life span is getting shorter and shorter on a daily basis, hence you HAVE to go HARD for everything before it it all ends forever.

Same with you lot here, never take any day as wasted or unproductive because you will regret losing it when your time comes.

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consolation

06 Oct 2017, 01:32

Did you just assume my mortality!?

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JP!

11 Oct 2017, 05:21

consolation wrote: Did you just assume my mortality!?
You seem surprised. I can appreciate the sage wisdom of our elder Elrick.

Ellipse

16 Oct 2017, 02:59

The factory is now back from their national holiday break and hopes to resume production soon on the compact cases, foam, and inner assembly steel plates.

I received some PCB material samples from the factories but none was a match. They were on the good but not perfect sound level of the PCBs that already finished production.

I am now in talks with a longstanding US PCB material manufacturer who identified some specific characteristics of the old PCBs from photos I sent them - he will look into this some more this week. It seems like both the PCB substrate and solder mask of the old PCBs may have contributed to the sharp click sound. I asked about a custom vintage style PCB formulation just for this project - with near 1,000 PCB orders this may be possible.

I am still sourcing the special spring material identified by the material analysis lab. It is an old standard that is no longer as widely available in such a small diameter but will hopefully have good news from some wire manufacturers this week.

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wobbled

16 Oct 2017, 14:11

Hope you can manage a pre christmas delivery Joe, I shall cry a lot if not :(

yac

16 Oct 2017, 22:51

Ellipse wrote: I am still sourcing the special spring material identified by the material analysis lab. It is an old standard that is no longer as widely available in such a small diameter but will hopefully have good news from some wire manufacturers this week.
So, not 5160 then i guess. The mystery of the spring continues! Going to feel great doing some serious typing on this board when it arrives.

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macclack

17 Oct 2017, 11:18

Ellipse wrote: The factory is now back from their national holiday break and hopes to resume production soon on the compact cases, foam, and inner assembly steel plates.

I received some PCB material samples from the factories but none was a match. They were on the good but not perfect sound level of the PCBs that already finished production.

I am now in talks with a longstanding US PCB material manufacturer who identified some specific characteristics of the old PCBs from photos I sent them - he will look into this some more this week. It seems like both the PCB substrate and solder mask of the old PCBs may have contributed to the sharp click sound. I asked about a custom vintage style PCB formulation just for this project - with near 1,000 PCB orders this may be possible.

I am still sourcing the special spring material identified by the material analysis lab. It is an old standard that is no longer as widely available in such a small diameter but will hopefully have good news from some wire manufacturers this week.
I continue to be amazed by the level of care and detail you are putting into sourcing each of the components. It's really fun to witness, even if it ultimately results in delaying the final product.

Craweth

18 Oct 2017, 21:58

How much of the sound would you say comes from the flippers slapping against PCB and how much is the spring hitting the barrel?

Ellipse

18 Oct 2017, 23:36

The PCB affects more the sound when the key is pressed and the spring resonating affects more when the key is released.

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frankbartoli

21 Oct 2017, 09:34

Hi, i don't follow very often. Ellipse, can you give a delivery date of the purchased product?
thx

Ellipse

21 Oct 2017, 16:01

I don't have a finalized date but you should look at Q1 18 delivery.

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wobbled

21 Oct 2017, 16:06

Ellipse wrote: I don't have a finalized date but you should look at Q1 18 delivery.
Is this going to be postponed again though? A while ago we were looking at deliveries last Christmas and then the forecast was for this Christmas, now we're talking 2018? I respect how much work you're putting in to this, but the deliveries getting pushed back repeatedly is really frustrating.

Ellipse

21 Oct 2017, 16:31

wobbled please hang in there. This year we ran into significant factory production issues including delays and subpar quality.

For some of the parts, I decided to hold off production until these quality control issues were resolved. I will not ship out a low quality keyboard to meet a timeline.

This year we are wrapping up the springs, key molds, compact cases, and inner assembly steel plates and then assembly can start.

These keyboards will be worth the wait and they will be done the right way!

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wobbled

21 Oct 2017, 16:48

Ellipse wrote: wobbled please hang in there.
Alright man I'll try!
Spoiler:
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I just need that sweet kish in my life already

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