F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

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Elrick

27 Nov 2018, 10:53

Ellipse wrote: I sent them a quality control video showing the testing of springs and emphasizing the sound differences of good and bad assemblies.
So you sent them a very important video detailing sound differences? What happens if the operator is stone cold deaf?

You have to understand everyone has differing rates of hearing, depending upon where they have worked in certain LOUD factories, throughout China/US.

Congratulate you for trying something here but do be aware relying upon 'individuals' to make decisions with testing and audio, might not bring you the results you are ultimately hoping for.

If it can be tested via strict machine/computer control leaving out humanity altogether, then you may have something that will work.

Ellipse

27 Nov 2018, 13:49

Elrick the sound is an important part of QC but they also have detailed numbers on the tolerances.

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JP!

27 Nov 2018, 14:45

Ignoring efficiency can these springs be reliably attached by hand? For example if I have a vintage Model F with rusted springs and wanted to replace the springs are there any caveats to doing it by hand?

User avatar
Elrick

28 Nov 2018, 02:25

Ellipse wrote: Elrick the sound is an important part of QC but they also have detailed numbers on the tolerances.
You are correct by SOUND which can be measured via Audio Recording. Hence you can leave the human element out by relying solely upon detailed sound measurement and comparison.

Just have this massive concern when it comes to relying upon some total stranger's own hearing, verses the detailed sound recording for a perfectly balanced and correct comparison.

Suspect the computer's ability to match sound's would be far superior than relying upon some strange (untested) human ear.

Ellipse

28 Nov 2018, 03:12

JP I only offer assembled springs and flippers, but yes you can assemble by hand.

User avatar
darkcruix

28 Nov 2018, 13:11

The original sound and feel of the original Model F (4704) is outstanding in my opinion. And with so many things in life, it is very subjective. I am using an IBM BeamSpring 3278 daily and at times also Blue Alps. They all have their beauty and special place in my heart, but when it comes to pure preference, I can only highlight that well attached springs on the flippers combined with all the other bits and pieces of the Model F (keycaps, case, barrels, etc) are unmatched.

Chalba

28 Nov 2018, 16:29

To support the idea that a person's hearing and opinion of sound is not a lesser tool for determining quality, look to professional musicians. No one would or should ever trust the sound of a recording over hearing the sound for themselves in person. A pianist doesn't look at a catalogue, pick a $100k shiny black beast and buy it without playing it themselves. You may say this doesn't apply to mass production or this project, but I think it has its place, and I trust Ellipse to be my expert musician knowing what he's listening for.

User avatar
FXT
XT

28 Nov 2018, 22:56

Ellipse, do you have an estimate on how long you'll keep extra spring+flipper assemblies and cases in stock after the keyboards are done being made, or will it be an instance of "while supplies last?"

Ellipse

28 Nov 2018, 23:35

FXT it will be while supplies last. I expect to make some extras of all the parts and sell them at higher prices to help recoup cost overruns.

User avatar
Elrick

29 Nov 2018, 00:04

Chalba wrote: You may say this doesn't apply to mass production or this project, but I think it has its place, and I trust Ellipse to be my expert musician knowing what he's listening for.
This isn't were all of the production of springs is being done at Drake's or Taylor Swift's studio's ;) .

They're being made thousands of kilometers away in a factory and as I understand Ellipse is relying upon the production crew on the assembly line to listen to the springs and flippers operating together giving a certain sound for selection.

If I was there on the production line I wouldn't care what they sounded like, they ALL get put into a bag and shipped to the Client's Premises.

The luxury of relying upon "NONE musicians" to choose which springs give off that precise sound that is desperately required, has now gone into the realms of pure fiction. Suspect Ellipse will require to personally go through ALL the springs himself when putting together his keyboards one by one, to get that unique sound he's been wanting.

Sorry but like what you said before, it takes a specialized "Musician" to select that perfect sound to string together a high selling song for paid-up listeners (real life).

User avatar
consolation

29 Nov 2018, 02:58

Elrick, I don't think anyone is listening on the assembly line - that... that would be something I'd want a video of lol. They just have tolerances and measurements that the sub assemblies have to meet. If I understood Ellipse's post correctly, he just meant that he was using the sound video to reinforce why spec has to be met.

Ellipse

30 Nov 2018, 22:58

Yep that's the idea consolation. Once the other two machines are set to spec they should produce the 95%+ approval rate of spring/flipper attacher Machine 1. Elrick is correct as well in that I have asked them to do the basic sound testing as part of the QC - essentially a spring with some reverb is good, but with a buzzing sound or no reverb means it should be detached and reattached, and the spring should potentially be discarded. I am not being overly particular on the length of the reverb or whatnot.

Also given this research it may be possible to mod the springs by hand if you prefer springs with less reverb - just press the springs down all the way leaving no space between bottom rung of the spring and the base of the nub on the flipper. Given the end of the spring and the last rung of the spring obviously not being a full loop, this means the spring would be pressed in a way that makes the spring lean slightly to one side so that the entire bottom surface of the spring is as close to the base of the nub as possible. I will not be modding this for any orders though.

Attached are the QC sound files. As a note these are just tests of a barrel, key, and flipper on a table top, not installed in a keyboard and they are not representative of how the keys will sound in the final keyboards. With all the foam, metal plates, and keys installed the keys are much lower in volume in line with many original Model F keyboards.
Attachments
good spring QC-not representative of key sound in keyboard.zip
(925.36 KiB) Downloaded 68 times
bad spring QC.zip
(846.9 KiB) Downloaded 60 times

User avatar
consolation

30 Nov 2018, 23:19

All I can say is, just as well I'm not doing QC; made me realise how much I destroyed my hearing working gigs without plugs - when I was young and dumb.

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Elrick

01 Dec 2018, 02:24

consolation wrote: All I can say is, just as well I'm not doing QC; made me realise how much I destroyed my hearing working gigs without plugs - when I was young and dumb.
Or working in factories dealing with diesel's and heavy machinery, over the years....

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green-squid

01 Dec 2018, 13:09

Will the F62s be shipped by the time I graduate High School? :)

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Muirium
µ

01 Dec 2018, 14:17

Well, the thread started in 2015…

post239740.html#p239740

Maybe they’ll ship in the Pence administration.

User avatar
Mattr567

01 Dec 2018, 19:43

green-squid wrote: Will the F62s be shipped by the time I graduate High School? :)
Lol, I thought the same thing.

Now I'm in college :roll:

User avatar
Elrick

02 Dec 2018, 03:54

Muirium wrote: Well, the thread started in 2015…

post239740.html#p239740

Maybe they’ll ship in the Pence administration.
Or maybe the Oprah Administration (after the 3rd World War) ;) .

User avatar
consolation

08 Dec 2018, 23:38

green-squid wrote: Will the F62s be shipped by the time I graduate High School? :)
Maybe try to get held back a year, just to be on the safe side?

User avatar
scottc

08 Dec 2018, 23:48

Muirium wrote: Well, the thread started in 2015…

post239740.html#p239740

Maybe they’ll ship in the Pence administration.
Ah Mu, remember when the thread opened and it was titled "Brand new Model F 62/77 key delivered in 2016!" or something?

Puree

09 Dec 2018, 00:21

scottc wrote:
Muirium wrote: Well, the thread started in 2015…

post239740.html#p239740

Maybe they’ll ship in the Pence administration.
Ah Mu, remember when the thread opened and it was titled "Brand new Model F 62/77 key delivered in 2016!" or something?
The "6" died and became a "9" ;)

User avatar
Nivlom_Drol-

09 Dec 2018, 04:54

Can we get a deadline

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JP!

09 Dec 2018, 19:06

So will these new Model F's get a proper inspection like the old Model F's? ;)
inspection.jpg
inspection.jpg (82.84 KiB) Viewed 971 times

Ellipse

09 Dec 2018, 20:59

I have created a bottom inner assembly sticker with the user names of the early bird tooling volunteers and some other contributors to the project (engineering, artwork, etc.). Not sure if there will be another QC sticker as well. It is just me doing all the final QC after the factory's QC.

User avatar
consolation

10 Dec 2018, 07:23

Nivlom_Drol- wrote: Can we get a deadline
How? Are you volunteering to sit in a Chinese factory making sure it's all going smoothly?

User avatar
Elrick

10 Dec 2018, 08:12

Ellipse wrote: Not sure if there will be another QC sticker as well. It is just me doing all the final QC after the factory's QC.
Then WE all want to see your Signature on any Label, anywhere on that keyboard.

Since you obviously didn't want your name on top of these fine keyboards then we are hoping your name appears elsewhere, so that we don't receive something blank and completely soulless from another factory.

Your name now carries Supreme Deskthority allegiance here, so we do expect it to be on our future made keyboards, somewhere, anywhere, so please make it happen.

YOU were the one to start all this and as we have all witnessed it, you shall be the very last one that will check and ship out our once in a Lifetime products.

You have to be proud of your name here because you are the last person alive, that shouldn't feel any negativity towards yourself and what you've achieved. My name is 'Mud' across all spectrum's yet your name represents true 'Hope' for the future.

Hoping to see your 'name' on your Keyboard, when it's finally delivered to my address - okay ;) .

User avatar
wobbled

10 Dec 2018, 10:29

You don't need his name scribbled on some random sticker to know who was the mastermind behind this project. That's a lot of extra work for him. I want these keyboards asap, lets stop adding pointless shit to his workload.

User avatar
Khers

10 Dec 2018, 10:32

wobbled wrote: You don't need his name scribbled on some random sticker to know who was the mastermind behind this project. That's a lot of extra work for him. I want these keyboards asap, lets stop adding pointless shit to his workload.
+1

User avatar
Chyros

10 Dec 2018, 11:02

Khers wrote:
wobbled wrote: You don't need his name scribbled on some random sticker to know who was the mastermind behind this project. That's a lot of extra work for him. I want these keyboards asap, lets stop adding pointless shit to his workload.
+1
These keyboards will be quite a legacy. Considering we're still talking about the originals, which are well over 30 years old, imagine if people will still be talking about Ellipse's keyboards in 2050!

User avatar
Elrick

10 Dec 2018, 11:37

Chyros wrote: These keyboards will be quite a legacy. Considering we're still talking about the originals, which are well over 30 years old, imagine if people will still be talking about Ellipse's keyboards in 2050!
Only us here on DT which doesn't constitute the WORLD (who knows even if DT will still be around).

Personally don't go looking towards the future too far ahead simply because of what might happen next, due to such Toxic leadership on the current World stage.

If we all happen to reach 2050 (intact) suspect the only ones who will know anything about this keyboard are it's Owners and no one else. Down my street, most of the residents are interested in Voting for 'Goose-stepping' morons back into power, which won't go too well for our overall future.

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