F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

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Twst

13 Jun 2020, 20:42

depletedvespene wrote:
13 Jun 2020, 20:28
Lovely. Now the quest for the best wood type begins! :D
Haha :lol:
And this was just some cheap scrap baltic birch. Makes me wonder how exotic hardwood types will sound :D

consensual-penis

13 Jun 2020, 21:00

if you are having issues with double entries on certain keys, qmk seems to fix it. So I would give it a try if you are having issues

gianni

13 Jun 2020, 21:49

Ellipse wrote:
25 May 2020, 22:05
As a note on the powdercoating, early on in the project I had the choice of going with the modern, thick, protected powdercoating or the older IBM style 1980s powdercoating and I chose the latter because while it is thinner, it is authentic to the look of the originals. I have noted this issue again with the powdercoating factory so they can hopefully thicken the paint for the final round.
what

Ellipse

13 Jun 2020, 23:07

Twst what is the throw distance of your solenoid if I may ask? Is there an order link? I read that the throw should be under 1mm.

Since I ordered some xwhatsit solenoid drivers (now available to order on the project web site; will be delivered in a few weeks) I am also looking to order some recommended solenoids.

rezartrez

14 Jun 2020, 00:30

tentator wrote:
20 May 2020, 02:47
photo5918054696247997375.jpg
..tonight is QMK-on-Beamspring testing night!

I'm writing this for the first time for humankind on a 3278 with QMK on board! :D

Will post results tomorrow..

tent:wq
What keyboard/keymap are you using? I'm using https://config.qmk.fm/# and don't see anything related to F62/F77, etc...

User avatar
Twst

14 Jun 2020, 00:53

Ellipse wrote:
13 Jun 2020, 23:07
Twst what is the throw distance of your solenoid if I may ask? Is there an order link? I read that the throw should be under 1mm.

Since I ordered some xwhatsit solenoid drivers (now available to order on the project web site; will be delivered in a few weeks) I am also looking to order some recommended solenoids.
The solenoid I am using is rated at 5mm. But the chassis is adjustable and you can fine tune the lenght of the throw that way and mounting it closer to the hack object. At full lenght it is a little sluggish, but keeping it on a shorter throw speeds things up. Speed is tweakable in the capsense util too, so it's not that bad to dail it in as you like.

Here is the ebay link;
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0837L-06K-6V ... 1967978003

Works great off the USB 5V and works just as good off the 9V from the xwhatsit solenoid board (built a few and tested that too).
Keep in mind the physical size, these just barely fit inside the boards.

Another great solenoid that works both on 5V and the xwhstsit solenoid board is this little fellow:
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/ ... 1585840895
The size on the sparkfun one is more manageable inside the chassis, I think it could even be mounted vertically firing downwards. And it hacks away quite hard giving its size. But I have not fully tested it mounted inside. It does not scream business like the other one, but I am sure it's big enough for a keyboard.
Have some around and could post pictures/video and comparison if there is any interest.

User avatar
tentator

14 Jun 2020, 16:40

Twst wrote:
13 Jun 2020, 20:22
Wow! Love that sound! ++

Ellipse

15 Jun 2020, 05:54

Great sound twst! Did you use a key combination to switch on/off the solenoid? Didn't know that was possible!

User avatar
Twst

15 Jun 2020, 08:07

Ellipse wrote:
15 Jun 2020, 05:54
Great sound twst! Did you use a key combination to switch on/off the solenoid? Didn't know that was possible!
Thanks!
Yep! The solenoid switch is found as "Exp Toggle" in the keymap dropdown in Capsense software. I placed it on a layer so I could turn in on and off as I see fit ;)
Makes serious work all the more serious.

caiko

15 Jun 2020, 11:08

By the way, a bit off topic - but does anyone use covers for these? Anyone get a suggestion of a somewhat elegant way to cover the keyboard?

Zimyver

15 Jun 2020, 13:05

Will also need to implement a mode so that the solenoid only activates with the return key.

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depletedvespene

15 Jun 2020, 16:37

Zimyver wrote:
15 Jun 2020, 13:05
Will also need to implement a mode so that the solenoid only activates with the return key.
s/return key/space bar/ :mrgreen:

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

15 Jun 2020, 17:19

No, backspace as punishment for typos.

User avatar
Twst

15 Jun 2020, 19:49

Sorry for posing all this annoying solenoid stuff.. :lol:
Anyways, I just wanted to share my findings and for anyone that want a little more tactility and click here is a super fast and non invasive mounting option of the smaller 5v solenoid from sparkfun.
f62 mini solenoid.jpg
f62 mini solenoid.jpg (1.6 MiB) Viewed 1653 times
It will securely clamp under the cable fastener inside the board.
This solenoid will obviously not hit like the bigger one, but I think it works well without overwhelming the ping of the F.
Here in my F62;

str8away

16 Jun 2020, 20:42

tentator wrote:
06 Jun 2020, 17:58
Yes yes please, especially to test the f77!
If you still need Mac testers I just got my F62 and would be happy to help

User avatar
tentator

16 Jun 2020, 21:36

sure, will pm you.

jafd

18 Jun 2020, 13:09

I have a question regarding the 0.9.2 firmware: is it any good for a xwhatsit controller that is attached to an IBM 3178 keyboard (with 16x8 matrix), or is it specific to this Model F? I have one which starts double registering some keys and not register others after some time of use (at first, tweaking the threshold works, then it kind of slips and there's not a good threshold). I don't know if it can be fixed purely in the firmware, or I need to look for grounding problems or what else might make it malfunction from mere uptime.

User avatar
tentator

18 Jun 2020, 13:21

jafd wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 13:09
I have a question regarding the 0.9.2 firmware: is it any good for a xwhatsit controller that is attached to an IBM 3178 keyboard (with 16x8 matrix), or is it specific to this Model F? I have one which starts double registering some keys and not register others after some time of use (at first, tweaking the threshold works, then it kind of slips and there's not a good threshold). I don't know if it can be fixed purely in the firmware, or I need to look for grounding problems or what else might make it malfunction from mere uptime.
Yes beamsprings seem to be quite sensitive, but I do believe it's a problem of calibration and that should be solvable via FW..

I'd suggest you try to upgrade it and if you can maybe all iso give it a try with qmk.. There is also the option commonsense of you don't need special layouts..

Tent:wq

User avatar
tentator

18 Jun 2020, 15:19

BTW, I was pointed out that the xwhatsit 0.9.2 fw for beamsprings needs to be compiled from source.. You cannot reuse the .hex compiled for model F!

jafd

18 Jun 2020, 16:55

It's not a beamspring one, but a model F. The one with big blue switch (viewtopic.php?t=14356)

User avatar
tentator

18 Jun 2020, 21:15

Ah ok lol! Somehow I misread 3278. Anyway you can give it a try, and the qmk in my opinion has great autocalibration and stability so far.

Ellipse

18 Jun 2020, 21:27

To all the beta testers: has QMK autocalibration been tested on both F62 and F77 type PCBs?

User avatar
tentator

18 Jun 2020, 21:32

Yes, on several f62 and I believe just one f77 but if you're willing to give it a try yourself.. It's unbelievable good in my opinion! :))

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tentator

18 Jun 2020, 21:33

Where we struggle more is on beamsprings for the time being..

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Twst

18 Jun 2020, 22:08

I am a believer too. Have converted both my F77 and F62 to QMK and it works without a single hickup.
Autocalibration seems to work its wonder every time I plug it in and it have accepted every macro and key config I have thrown at it.
Such great work!
Got the solenoid to fire with the solenoid driver board too ;)

reavy

18 Jun 2020, 22:43

pandrew and I found a bug with the last column for the F77 which is now fixed and works great. The auto calibration works perfectly as long as you don't accidentally press any keys while plugging the board in / powering it on. The auto calibration is "binned" across different areas of the board, so you don't have to live with a single threshold for all the keys -- this deals with those cases where inconsistencies in the sensing make it difficult to find one true threshold to use on all keys.

Ellipse

19 Jun 2020, 00:09

Thanks tentator; that is good news.

Twst thanks for the positive report on QMK. I think the auto calibration is the most important reason to switch to QMK. Once the GUI is released, should be even more of a reason to switch!

Wow reavy, I did not know that the calibration could be done that way for xwhatsit hardware and QMK firmware!


An important note on USB hubs from one new Model F user:

"I spent a couple of hours going nuts until I finally figured it out.
I have a F77 that arrived a few days ago. I put some keys on it and gave it a spin. Awful, simply awful.
Key presses would register or not register. Random text would appear while typing. Unusable.

Turns out I was using a 4 port non-powered Anker USB hub. Works fine for my model M’s, and the rest of my keyboards BUT not the F77.

I then plugged the F77 into a powered USB hub and tada, all is good.

Hope this helps others."

daijoubu

19 Jun 2020, 08:09

Just further updates on QMK, having used it for 1 month + as a daily driver at work. IMO this completes the new Model F. Zero hiccups, no need for fiddling with drifting of voltages, works as expected and intended, and layers work well.

Hoping to seal the deal with a solenoid one day =D

geneg1

19 Jun 2020, 22:19

I've had my Model F77 (black, ultra compact) for exactly 2 weeks now and I wanted to share some thoughts and notes.

https://goykhman.ca/gene/blog/images/20 ... el-f77.jpg

First and foremost, this is an amazing keyboard unlike any other I have ever used. Congratulations Ellipse, and much respect to everyone in this community that has been waiting patiently for this project to bear fruit. I've only been waiting a short time by comparison but I can unequivocally say that it has been worth the wait.

Following are just my impressions and opinions. I'm somewhat new to mechanical keyboards and don't claim any particular expertise. As a programmer though I do type a lot.

Case and build quality

Impeccable. this thing will surely outlast me. The ultracompact case is satisfyingly chunky and heavy despite not having a zinc backplate. The black powdercoating looks perfect to my eyes. I split my shipment so I didn't get any little feet or anything ... maybe these are still coming ... but a touch of tilt at the back would be nice.

Keycaps

Very good. I was surprised to find that only the space bar key has a stabilizer, but that doesn't seem to matter in practice. This is my first keyboard without keycap legends (for now) and I'm not as proficient a touch-typist as I thought I was. I have just ordered 2 keycaps with nubs (for the J and F positions) to help me find the home row. I find I am making more typos than usual, especially immediately upon putting my hands on the keyboard, but I'm already getting more used to the dimensions and layout so I suspect this is temporary.

Keyswitch feel

Unique and unmatched. Extremely responsive, comfortable, and satisfying. This is where the Model F shines. I've used keyboards with Cherry MX Blue, Red, and Clear switches and also Matias Click switches (similar to Alps White) and these buckling spring switches are completely different. They're a must-try.

Sound

Remember, this is just my opinion: I find the sound a bit much. It's louder than any keyboard I've ever used, and my partner doesn't hesitate to remind me of that. Thankfully I use good microphone noise cancelling software during video calls, otherwise this would be a straight no-go. To be fair, I've been bottoming out on every keystroke so I could probably achieve a better sound (and speed too) if I stopped hammering on it so hard.

The space bar in particular had an annoying metallic twang when I first received the keyboard. Reseating it and messing around with the metal clips didn't help much but applying a single layer of electrical tape where the stabilizer met the clips, as suggested by dotcom, helped immensely. I haven't tried clickclack's spacebar heatshrink mod but might do that someday. As it is, the spacebar is now the best sounding key on the keyboard.

I've also reseated a few of the keys following Ellipse's video and I'm pretty sure it sounds like it's supposed to... it's just darn loud. I guess I'll never understand the solenoid fans ... you want it to be EVEN LOUDER? ;)

Compatibility

I use my Model F with a 2018 MacBook Pro 15" through an eGPU chassis with integrated USB-A ports. I connect the keyboard directly to a USB-A (3.0) port on the eGPU chassis and haven't had any issues with key detection, duplicated keystrokes etc. The original voltage threshold (122) that the keyboard shipped with seems fine. The media control keys programmed by default (volume up, volume down, mute etc.) all work fine with macOS.

Software

I've been using the capsense utility compiled by darkcruix on macOS 10.15.4 and it has been working fine. The interface took a little getting used to but there have been no surprises.

Overall

I love it. When I stop fat-fingering the first key-chord combination every time I sit down to type I'll be all set. Thank you Ellipse and everyone else who has been working to make this a reality.

wondererwader

20 Jun 2020, 04:06

tentator wrote:
18 Jun 2020, 21:32
Yes, on several f62 and I believe just one f77 but if you're willing to give it a try yourself.. It's unbelievable good in my opinion! :))
My f77 just came in the mail today (!). I'd love to test the auto-calibration and use QMK with it. Thanks.

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