F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

User avatar
Hypersphere

20 Jul 2020, 00:36

@Ellipse:

Just curious:

1. Was a split Left Shift a possible option on the F62 and/or F77? I am thinking of the split as the same for the split Right Shift, i.e., Shift+Fn from left to right. This would enable having Fn on the left and/or right of the keyboard. I have my XT set up this way (although I never use the left Fn myself).

2. If someone wanted to create a split Left Shift on the F62 and/or F77, would this be doable by adding a flipper?

Ellipse

20 Jul 2020, 04:07

Yes and yes on all keyboards. All 2U and larger keys can be split, including the space bar (shorter space bar + 1.25U or 1.5U key) like on the JIS layout on new Model F photo I posted before.

CapnCrunch53

20 Jul 2020, 09:50

Got my F62 Kishsaver in the mail yesterday! It really is an incredible piece - so solid and well-built! Makes a Model M feel light! Bravo, Ellipse.

I am having some trouble with the Unicomp keys I'm using. I'm using brand-new keys from an Ultra Classic, and am having issues with Enter, both Shifts, and - oddly enough since it's not stabilized - Caps Lock. They get stuck in the down position.

Now, changing Caps Lock and Right Shift to some older Unicomp keys worked. I fiddled with the stabilizer for Enter, and now it works when using an older Unicomp Enter key as well, but it binds a bit and doesn't feel great. I have not gotten Left Shift to work at all yet, with several different keycaps tested.

I'm aware of the suggestion to raise the stab inserts a few mm, and am also aware of the tip to use a Q-tip to remove the stabs. Unfortunately, the offbrand Q-tips I have in my apartment aren't big enough to pull the stabs out. I might need to get a good needlenose pliers. Hopefully I can get them back out without damaging them.

I thought I had read something somewhere about Unicomp's stabilized keys being specced differently than the old IBM ones, and that you may need to get Unicomp stab inserts when using their keys on an older board - is that accurate, or did I dream that up? If true, does this have any applicability to the Model F project - would I get better results using Unicomp stab inserts?

Altogether not an unexpected struggle, and I'm very pleased with the board. I did tune a couple of keys - just the spring pulling and compressing trick from the QC video - and got rid of some buzz; now everything feels and sounds fantastic. Can't wait to get my stab issue figured out and start using the board in full!

Wazrach

20 Jul 2020, 11:07

On top of tightening the case screws, I also improved the key feel and sound by adding 2mm strips of shelf liner to the parts where the top inner assembly makes contact with the top case. So the sides of the assembly and the bit that separates the nav cluster of the F77 from the alphanumeric block. I did this because it doesn't make much contact as it is, and Model Fs need as much help as possible to ensure the plates are tight.

troglotype

20 Jul 2020, 13:30

CapnCrunch53 wrote:
20 Jul 2020, 09:50

I am having some trouble with the Unicomp keys I'm using. I'm using brand-new keys from an Ultra Classic, and am having issues with Enter, both Shifts, and - oddly enough since it's not stabilized - Caps Lock. They get stuck in the down position.
I had the same problem with the F62. Unicomp Enter and Caps Lock/Ctrl got stuck. Interestingly, the very same keys didn't get stuck on the F77. I think it's a combination of tolerances and QC and I'm sure that the "original" new caps will solve all these problems.

Still trying to figure out how to best dampen the rattle of the spacebar. It's much better on the F77 and on the F62 even some foam on the inside of the spacebar doesn't help much.

User avatar
Hypersphere

20 Jul 2020, 14:42

@troglotype: Regarding spacebar rattle on the F62, I did several things, and the rattle has disappeared. Not sure which of these items worked or if it is the combination:

+ Put strips of self-adhesive rubber inside the spacebar. I used strips intended as non-skid feet for the undersides of various things, such as keyboards.

+ Applied a dab of silicone-base grease to the spacebar stabilizer clips on the top plate of the keyboard and on the spacebar itself.

+ Put strips of ultra-thin self-adhesive foam on the top plate of the keyboard where the spacebar stabilzer wire hits the top plate. I used Poron ThinStik polyurethane foam.

+ Put an O-ring at the base of the two spacebar barrels. The dimensions of the O-rings are 16mm OD, 12mm ID, 2mm thickness.

Gnho

20 Jul 2020, 17:11

Hi all-

I am running into a problem with xwhatsit's controller. For whatever reason, the .exe file disappeared and does not reappear after I unzip the downloaded file again. I asked my antivirus to skip this folder but the same issue still persists. Does anyone have a similar experience? Any clue on how I can solve the problem?

Thanks!

zod000

20 Jul 2020, 21:12

@Hypersphere

I received my o-rings as well. I am pretty underwhelmed by the difference they made and I don't think I will keep them on as the reduction in travel slightly bothers me (I had a feeling it might). Perhaps if this was combined with a floss mod it would have been been more impressive.

clint

20 Jul 2020, 21:38

Thank you Ellipse!!!!

Received the F77 on Friday, all sub-keys, beige letters and grey keys are from an old Teensy'd 3151 Terminal Model M that's been mine ever since we moved development from S/370 to S/390...so these keys have a long known history. Some random luck and I had a spare grey tilde key to match the rest of the keys in the numpad. Blue keycaps are from unicomp.

The keyboard is absolutely wonderful! Got the xwhatsit layers configured to my liking and added some large rubber feet to give it an angle. I plan on cutting some wooden feet with a dowel pin that slots into the 2 holes on the bottomside. Been using it all day today connected to my Thinkpad(Fedora 32) for work. My wife took a video from the other room of me clicking away-she says I type too loud :lol: . I am all grins :mrgreen:

Image

Ellipse

21 Jul 2020, 04:03

Great clint, thanks for posting your new Industrial Gray F77! Where did that cool IBM logo come from?

rgleas

21 Jul 2020, 05:30

Hello all, quick question... which color stabilizer goes to what keys in the f77? thank you so much! my keyboard is taken apart right now lol and pondering

rgleas

21 Jul 2020, 05:51

In trying to be resourceful I at least found this
Image

However, which is which.. as the vertical bar keys are apparent

rgleas

21 Jul 2020, 06:22

Okay excuse my attention to detail I should have made sense of this that the white ones are presumably the horizontal ones.. lol

User avatar
Hypersphere

21 Jul 2020, 15:31

@zod000: Thanks for your comment about O-rings. I've installed them only on the mods and spacebar, which has attenuated the harsh metallic "clack" of these larger keys. I didn't like the effect on the alphanumeric keys, and so I removed them from these keys. However, I think I will keep them on the mods and spacebar. Like so many things, this is another instance of personal preference.

troglotype

21 Jul 2020, 16:31

Hypersphere wrote:
20 Jul 2020, 14:42
@troglotype: Regarding spacebar rattle on the F62, I did several things, and the rattle has disappeared. Not sure which of these items worked or if it is the combination:

+ Put strips of self-adhesive rubber inside the spacebar. I used strips intended as non-skid feet for the undersides of various things, such as keyboards.

+ Applied a dab of silicone-base grease to the spacebar stabilizer clips on the top plate of the keyboard and on the spacebar itself.

+ Put strips of ultra-thin self-adhesive foam on the top plate of the keyboard where the spacebar stabilzer wire hits the top plate. I used Poron ThinStik polyurethane foam.

+ Put an O-ring at the base of the two spacebar barrels. The dimensions of the O-rings are 16mm OD, 12mm ID, 2mm thickness.
@hypersphere many thanks for these tips! I will try to emulate all of them. I do have good silicone grease and I have quite a few O-rings left from my Topre days (some are even yours, I think). I will also try to get the foam.

To paraphrase Douglas Adams, I am sure that the mere thought of such mods wouldn't even begin to speculate about the merest possibility of crossing the mind of a true Model F enthusiast. But while I adore the tactility of capacitive buckling springs and the build quality of Joe's reproductions, the dissonance in the pinging of the springs drives me mad. For this reason I have floss-modded my original Model Fs as well as Joe's reproductions. And once a board is floss-modded, the sound of the spacebar is a bit much.

Again, many thanks for your detailed tips!

clint

21 Jul 2020, 17:44

Ellipse wrote:
21 Jul 2020, 04:03
Great clint, thanks for posting your new Industrial Gray F77! Where did that cool IBM logo come from?
@Ellipse,
It's the logo off an old IBM xSeries 445 Bezel, it just pops off, has 4 plastic push pins, just cut them off and file the backside flat.

User avatar
Scarpia

21 Jul 2020, 18:46

clint, I love how your F77 looks with that logo! I think I have an IBM logo somewhere, if so then I have to give mine the same treatment.

User avatar
Hypersphere

21 Jul 2020, 19:29

Finally, I've opened the case on my new F62 to scope it out for a few more modifications. I am considering the following:

+ Sound-deadening foam in the front and/or back case.

+ Rubber washers for the case-mounting screws, although if this were done, it might be best to put a rubber gasket all the way around where the two halves of the case come together.

+ Panel-mount USB-C connector. Will probably go with part number U3A00057-03M from L-com (North Andover, Massachsetts, USA). Might also use a right-angle USB-C adapter for the connection to the controller. Looks like the necessary holes are already partially present in the bottom half of the case, which will minimize drilling.

Has anyone here done any modifications like these? Any thoughts or suggestions?

@Ellipse: Is it necessary to have a ferrite choke on the USB cable? If so, is it best to locate it inside the case near the controller, or can it be outside the case anywhere along the length of the cable?

swedishpiehole

21 Jul 2020, 19:59

I got my F62 a couple of weeks ago and after a rough patch of trying to adjust a few stubborn springs, and struggling to figure out how to flash it with QMK, here I am with a dope ass keyboard! Only catch is that the keycaps won't be ready until later in the year, so I'm making do with some blanks I bought from Unicomp. At first I thought I'd go crazy without legends, but it has forced me to improve my typing skills and I can just about manage by now without too much trouble. I did a floss mod, because the pinging is just not my bag, and I'm now utterly content with the sound/feel.

Because the white blank keycaps looked kind of lame, I decided to dye them. I chose RIT dye for synthetics in "frost gray". The results were a little weird, and everything came out in various shades of mauve. The result is not too bad, except for the right shift key which had some parts that just would NOT take dye.

Image

User avatar
Hypersphere

21 Jul 2020, 20:07

@troglotype: You are very welcome to the tips. I hope that the suggested modifications work for you. Please note that Hypersphere silencing rings for Topre-switch keyboards will not work on the F62/F77. The rings I used on the Model-F boards were purchased from Amazon:

uxcell Nitrile Rubber O-Rings 16mm OD 12mm ID 2mm Width, Metric Buna-N Sealing Gasket, Pack of 50, $5.39.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07F3 ... UTF8&psc=1

@swedishpiehole: Strange dying result with that Right Shift key. Did you wash the keys before dying them? Does RIT recommend any surface treatments before dying?

swedishpiehole

21 Jul 2020, 20:22

Hypersphere wrote:
21 Jul 2020, 20:07
@swedishpiehole: Strange dying result with that Right Shift key. Did you wash the keys before dying them? Does RIT recommend any surface treatments before dying?
I did wash the keys, even though they were practically new. Clearly there is a mix of some kind of plastic in that one key that does NOT take dye. RIT is a fabric dye, so the instructions don't apply to plastic, although I don't recall there being any recommended surface treatments.

User avatar
Hypersphere

21 Jul 2020, 21:10

swedishpiehole wrote:
21 Jul 2020, 20:22
Hypersphere wrote:
21 Jul 2020, 20:07
@swedishpiehole: Strange dying result with that Right Shift key. Did you wash the keys before dying them? Does RIT recommend any surface treatments before dying?
I did wash the keys, even though they were practically new. Clearly there is a mix of some kind of plastic in that one key that does NOT take dye. RIT is a fabric dye, so the instructions don't apply to plastic, although I don't recall there being any recommended surface treatments.
I dimly recall some posts on DT years ago with some suggestions (such as temperature and time) for dying PBT keycaps with RIT dye. Perhaps a search would come up with something useful. However, as you have pointed out, there is something odd about that one key.

rgleas

21 Jul 2020, 21:28

Hello all, I made a new video to provide a comparison between the Unicomp keys and New Model F keys on my F77. I just received my set of blank New Model F keys yesterday and goodness to they feel lovely.

Cheers!

Jotokun

21 Jul 2020, 21:30

Could someone help me get access to the QMK firmware beta? Given the success others have seen with it fixing random actuations, I think chances are good it'll help out with my F77.

User avatar
Hypersphere

21 Jul 2020, 22:16

@rgleas: Thanks for the comparative video. Did you use exactly the same setup for the different recordings? (Same placement of mic; same audio settings, etc.). If so (i.e., if the only variable is the keycap set), then the difference in sound seems quite dramatic. To my ear, the new Model F keys are singing more in the bass and baritone range, whereas the Unicomp keys are more tenor. I hope we don't have to wait too long for the new printed keys. Maybe I'll order an unprinted set just for the sound!

rgleas

21 Jul 2020, 22:28

Hypersphere wrote:
21 Jul 2020, 22:16
@rgleas: Thanks for the comparative video. Did you use exactly the same setup for the different recordings? (Same placement of mic; same audio settings, etc.). If so (i.e., if the only variable is the keycap set), then the difference in sound seems quite dramatic. To my ear, the new Model F keys are singing more in the bass and baritone range, whereas the Unicomp keys are more tenor. I hope we don't have to wait too long for the new printed keys. Maybe I'll order an unprinted set just for the sound!
Thanks for watching. I used the same microphone, and I am unsure if the microphone settings were exactly the same.. The F77 still sounds quite a bit different than my F62, though likely because of the case size differences. I think the most important difference that can't been seen in the video is the overall feel of these keys is far superior.

rgleas

21 Jul 2020, 23:34

So I've come to a conclusion on my keyboard preference, after switching between full size boards, my F62, and my F77 over the past few months. When I initially placed my order after discovering the New Model F site (of which I believe to have found from one of Chyrosan's video's having a reference to the site) I only ordered the F77, but after drooling over the look of the F62 in the beige case with all black keys I ordered one the next day. I'm extremely glad that I did, because I likely would've never bought a 60% keyboard, and I would've missed out on what is the best keyboard I've ever had by a long shot.

The F62 was very awkward at first, especially with FN + [ - ; - ' - / (up - left - right - down) for arrow keys, and the FN combinations for delete and insert. Having control where caps lock usually is was actually quite easy though, and I much preferred this right off the bat. I did mix up hitting the delete key a bit, but as well prefer it's location much more.

Now when I use other keyboards, it's such a hastle to have to slightly move my hand to hit the arrow keys, or have to stretch my pinky down to hit control. The backspace key being right above enter as well is just so easy to engage as it doesn't require a pinky stretch, which has improved my typing speed. Having blank key caps, typing sequences of numbers was a bit of a challenge at first, but this too forced me to build muscle memory.

Now that I've gotten used to the F62, it's honestly hard to go back to something full size. Everything you need is within reach while having your fingers at home row, and overall I feel that it's improved my productivity and typing speed. So in conclusion the F62 is the best keyboard I've ever used and I don't think I'll ever go back to using full size boards.
(Note about layout: Split Backspace, HHKB Split Right Shift)

Anyone else feel the same way about 60% keyboards?

Cheers!

Image

User avatar
Hypersphere

22 Jul 2020, 00:26

@rgleas: You've summed up quite nicely why the HHKB form factor and layout is so highly praised. Add to this the superb Model-F switches, and you have a clear winner.

My own favorite layout is also that of the HHKB. Despite continual urging by Muirium and others on DT to try the HHKB, I put this off for some time, thinking the layout was too alien. After finally giving it a try, I almost instantly fell for the placement of Fn, Ctrl, and Backspace. It took a bit longer to adjust to the cursor diamond, but now I would have it no other way. In fact, whenever possible, I have remapped the keys on most of the keyboards that I use to something as close as possible to the HHKB layout.

The 60% form factor has also become my favorite. The symmetry is compelling, and it makes sense to center the keyboard under my center monitor. It is also a cure and preventive measure for "mouse shoulder".

The F62 in the HHKB configuration has what I regard as the ideal form factor and layout served up in a heavy-duty package with arguably the best-ever clicky switches. We are clearly in agreement!

rgleas

22 Jul 2020, 06:54

Nice to hear @Hypersphere!

I just installed my solenoid driver today with a small 5v solenoid. It was interesting try to get everything to fit properly. It works though, hooray!

Can anyone explain how to set up a way to toggle it on and off? Very much appreciated! :P

xyzzy

22 Jul 2020, 10:07

rgleas wrote:
21 Jul 2020, 23:34
The F62 was very awkward at first, especially with FN + [ - ; - ' - / (up - left - right - down) for arrow keys
I also love the HHKB form factor (I have been using an HHKB for a long time, which has been replaced by a F62 exactly like yours) and I subscribe to every word you wrote.

The F62 "split backspace, split right shift" is the best keyboard I ever owned, and I am seriously thinking to sell off most of my other keyboards (except maybe a Model M and the HHKB) and get another spare F62.

Regarding the cursor placement, I have also remapped the bottom right modifier group to act as cursor cluster when the keys are pressed on their own, and as standard modifiers (shift, super, alt, control) when pressed together with other keys.

I'm not sure if the stock remapping tool can do this, but you can use a software remapper (like Karabiner in macOS) or the beta QMK firmware.
Attachments
IMG_0098.JPG
IMG_0098.JPG (49.35 KiB) Viewed 921 times

Post Reply

Return to “Group buys”