F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

DrivenKeys

05 Jan 2021, 23:33

I'm extremely grateful for Ellipse and all of those that have helped make this project happen, and I encourage everyone to spread the word as much as possible. As many people as possible should know about this. I'm guilty of forgetting about this project until recently, and hope to help rectify that for others.

I'm about to open up and assemble my first F77, and I couldn't be more excited. I'm going to post it on Reddit, Geekhack, Keebtalk, and perhaps Linkedin, which are the extent of my social media. I don't have much influence, but I hope everyone reading this can make some effort to share their experience and help bring more orders for the next round.

The modern computing world has tried to convince us that everything is disposable and not worth preserving, which is diminishing quality and creating nearly immeasurable waste. The more we expose people to timeless innovations made to last a lifetime, the better we can disarm these harmful habits, and inspire people to spend a bit more on something that won't ever be trash.

User avatar
darkcruix

06 Jan 2021, 11:09

DrivenKeys wrote:
05 Jan 2021, 23:33
I'm extremely grateful for Ellipse and all of those that have helped make this project happen, and I encourage everyone to spread the word as much as possible. As many people as possible should know about this. I'm guilty of forgetting about this project until recently, and hope to help rectify that for others.

I'm about to open up and assemble my first F77, and I couldn't be more excited. I'm going to post it on Reddit, Geekhack, Keebtalk, and perhaps Linkedin, which are the extent of my social media. I don't have much influence, but I hope everyone reading this can make some effort to share their experience and help bring more orders for the next round.

The modern computing world has tried to convince us that everything is disposable and not worth preserving, which is diminishing quality and creating nearly immeasurable waste. The more we expose people to timeless innovations made to last a lifetime, the better we can disarm these harmful habits, and inspire people to spend a bit more on something that won't ever be trash.
Hi, you spoke my mind. Can I quote you in the upcoming Technical Manual for Model F keyboards, because I think your last paragraph is worth sharing there as well ... Thanks all for this wonderful project, group of people!

photometer

06 Jan 2021, 21:01

@Ellipse

Thanks for your reply. I basically replaced all my unicomp keys with the keys from original IBM Model-M (circa 1989). Boy, that made a big difference. I don't see the key binding on any 1U key when I press on the left or right side of the key. I
I am look forward to the Dye sublimated keys in Feb/March.

Ellipse

06 Jan 2021, 21:26

darkcruix wrote:
06 Jan 2021, 11:09
DrivenKeys wrote:
05 Jan 2021, 23:33
I'm extremely grateful for Ellipse and all of those that have helped make this project happen, and I encourage everyone to spread the word as much as possible. As many people as possible should know about this. I'm guilty of forgetting about this project until recently, and hope to help rectify that for others.

I'm about to open up and assemble my first F77, and I couldn't be more excited. I'm going to post it on Reddit, Geekhack, Keebtalk, and perhaps Linkedin, which are the extent of my social media. I don't have much influence, but I hope everyone reading this can make some effort to share their experience and help bring more orders for the next round.

The modern computing world has tried to convince us that everything is disposable and not worth preserving, which is diminishing quality and creating nearly immeasurable waste. The more we expose people to timeless innovations made to last a lifetime, the better we can disarm these harmful habits, and inspire people to spend a bit more on something that won't ever be trash.
Hi, you spoke my mind. Can I quote you in the upcoming Technical Manual for Model F keyboards, because I think your last paragraph is worth sharing there as well ... Thanks all for this wonderful project, group of people!
Agreed! Great way of writing it.

Great news photometer!

DrivenKeys

06 Jan 2021, 23:40

darkcruix wrote:
06 Jan 2021, 11:09
Hi, you spoke my mind. Can I quote you in the upcoming Technical Manual for Model F keyboards, because I think your last paragraph is worth sharing there as well ... Thanks all for this wonderful project, group of people!
Thank you, I'd be honored. This is inspiring work!

DrivenKeys

07 Jan 2021, 06:53

edit: Yes, Ellipse emailed that everything is available in blue. My perfect kb is getting closer!

Does anybody here know if the hhkb set can be ordered in blue? I forgot about that when I ordered my blue extra set, and both my F77s are full hhkb.
Last edited by DrivenKeys on 08 Jan 2021, 02:17, edited 1 time in total.

Jan Pospisil

07 Jan 2021, 10:52

Sorry, I've not been following this that closely, does this not ship with dyesub keycaps currently?
If I were to get this, should I wait till Feb/March?

DrivenKeys

07 Jan 2021, 11:27

The dye subbed keys are currently delayed, and currently only unprinted keys are available. If you order your keyboard now, you can add an additional shipping fee to have your keys shipped later, and your board shipped now. If you choose not to pay the extra shipping, you can wait for the whole package to arrive once when the keys have arrived.

Here's the blog with the latest official update and more info on them. It's quite an endeavor!
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/

If you already have a Model M (like many of us), it's fun to swap in the keys from that while waiting for the new keys, so it makes sense to get the keyboard earlier. Unicomp keys fit as well, but some people have had issues with them.

Jan Pospisil

07 Jan 2021, 12:01

Gotcha, thank you!

Meowmaritus

07 Jan 2021, 22:35

DrivenKeys wrote:
07 Jan 2021, 11:27
Unicomp keys fit as well, but some people have had issues with them.
Curious what kind of issues, because mine are working fine? They even have far less binding than they did on my Unicomp model M lol.

Only issues I've had is that they are bad looking/feeling on their own lol

DrivenKeys

08 Jan 2021, 01:16

You just have to go back a couple pages to see one person's issues. They're probably the minority, but it still happens.

Hey, I'm curious, do you know when your Unicomp keys were made? I've been wondering if they updated their tooling with the New Model M. The keys in those pictures look nicer than those on my Endura Pro, but that could just be better photography.

ijdod

08 Jan 2021, 17:52

After spending way too much money on keyboards over the years (parents had a PC with a model F, had a model M myself for ages, a couple of unicomp M's (banned from office :(), and a couple of Topre's (my fav outside of buckling springs), decided to treat myself to a new model F. Really loooking forward to the waiting in anticipation :D.

DrivenKeys

09 Jan 2021, 12:42

ijdod wrote:
08 Jan 2021, 17:52
After spending way too much money on keyboards over the years (parents had a PC with a model F, had a model M myself for ages, a couple of unicomp M's (banned from office :(), and a couple of Topre's (my fav outside of buckling springs), decided to treat myself to a new model F. Really loooking forward to the waiting in anticipation :D.
You will not be disappointed. It's fantastic. I'm not going to mod mine, but if noise is a problem, the floss mod in the springs dampens what is perhaps the loudest part: the spring ping. It's incredible to listen to, almost like singing, but I find it to be the loudest aspect of the keyboard. The click clack is more mechanical, but quieter than my M overall. In contrast, the M's springs can be heard, but are more of an afterthought compared to the rest of it.

When I look at what I spent on modern boards and parts, this keyboard is a bargain. When I actually use it, the price is the best deal I've ever found in tech. It's really just that good. The sound of this is an acquired taste, but when I sit down to this board, it feels akin to a nice musical instrument. Those often get better with time, because they're made to, and this has that same feeling. Just like a guitar, throw in some extra parts, keep it tuned up, and you're not going to want to let it go.

BucklingSprings

10 Jan 2021, 00:47

photometer wrote:
05 Jan 2021, 21:11
@Ellipse - Can you please answer my question:

If I press some keys (letter ones 1U size) at the edges, I can feel resistance and the key does not go down smoothly. If I press at the center, the key goes down smoothly. I don't know the technical term to describe this.
I am using Unicomp keys on the F77 keyboard. I do not see this with my original IBM M keyboard or even the Unicomp M Keyboard.

Is this expected? Will this go away once I use your keycaps? Is the stem design of your keycaps any different from Unicomp keys?
I believe that I have a similar issue with the left alt key. It does not bother me because the key works well unless I
press it on it's left edge. It is not "scratchy" but there is one "resistance point" on the way down. I believe that this
comes from tolerances of the unprinted unicomp keys that I ordered. Once I get the printed keys from ellipse
the problem might either go away or I will see if lube would help. If it does not help I will just live with it. In my case
it does not take away from the outstanding key feel.

DrivenKeys

10 Jan 2021, 03:57

BucklingSprings wrote:
10 Jan 2021, 00:47
In my case it does not take away from the outstanding key feel.
I recall one of the video reviews had a similar experience to yours, but he felt as you do and was very clear how incredibly minor it was.
I can't imagine it will persist after use.

photometer

10 Jan 2021, 18:25

@BucklingSprings & @DrivenKeys

After I replaced all my Unicomp keys with genuine IBM Model M keys, all the normal keys, alt, ctrl, left shift, backspace looks good. I can press these keys on either left or right edge and it goes down smoothly without any resistance.
The only key I still have trouble is the right Shift key (which is the second biggest key after spacebar...I have ansi layout). Even the metal wire stabilized large space bar feels smooth.
Even with genuine IBM Right shift key, I can feel resistance if I push down at the edges of the shift key very slowly.
I see this issue has been previously addressed by ellipse here
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11046&p=467836&hil ... rt#p467836
and
viewtopic.php?p=461987#p461987

Somebody has posted a technique on youtube to pull the stabilizer inserts using one or two qtip cotton swabs. I could not pull the stabilizer inserts out with that technique and did not want to damage the stabilizer or barrel using pliers or tweezers.

ellipse mentioned this in his old post - "The idea is to get the sharp edge of the arched portion to bend inward slightly and stay that way". I wish there was a picture or video that explained the above technique.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

10 Jan 2021, 20:24

I don't have a big right shift (but HHKB layout), but I had this issue slightly on the left shift and enter with Unicomp keycaps. However, it disappeared after some usage. So maybe these rough edges just needs to be broken-in.

RaoulRod

11 Jan 2021, 03:42

Howdy All,

Wanted to show the F77 I got. Thought I would go with the Red, White and Blue (and pebble and gray) colors.

Image

If Elipse ever offers white or black printed keys I will be there with bells on :)
Attachments
E74D2E92-8B2F-4CED-8875-FAE573F66A73.jpeg
E74D2E92-8B2F-4CED-8875-FAE573F66A73.jpeg (4.04 MiB) Viewed 817 times

DrivenKeys

11 Jan 2021, 12:51

photometer wrote:
10 Jan 2021, 18:25

Somebody has posted a technique on youtube to pull the stabilizer inserts using one or two qtip cotton swabs. I could not pull the stabilizer inserts out with that technique and did not want to damage the stabilizer or barrel using pliers or tweezers.
I only have the 2 piece keys from my '95 M, and I chose to use the inserts from that board, instead of the new ones.

I also followed the qtip video, and it took me about 15 minutes of fiddling to get the left shift stabilizer out. It defitely took some patience. Surprisingly, I couldn't really figure out the best approach until I shined a tiny light down there and really thought about it, but that's just me :D I'm not sure it really helped, but it eventually paid off.

I was using generic brand qtips with plastic shafts, and I think the more durable plastic helped them serve this purpose.

Any binding seems to be an issue that will wear in with a bit of use. I'm willing to bet this even happened to original Model F's when new. I can't remember if it happened on my M, but I wouldn't be surprised; I'm much more sensitive to these things nowadays.

DrivenKeys

11 Jan 2021, 12:55

RaoulRod wrote:
11 Jan 2021, 03:42
Howdy All,

Wanted to show the F77 I got. Thought I would go with the Red, White and Blue (and pebble and gray) colors.

If Elipse ever offers white or black printed keys I will be there with bells on :)
This looks really nice with the black case. How do you like the sound?

You might want to look at Ellipse's interest check form for doubleshots. If I remember correctly, he's working with a manufacturer on MX caps, and considering bs caps for the future.
Last edited by DrivenKeys on 12 Jan 2021, 02:14, edited 1 time in total.

RaoulRod

11 Jan 2021, 13:36

I have a F62 compact as well and I left that “natural” with the ping/ring. For the F77 Classic I did the floss mod and it is ring free. There is a very slight increase in activation force with the floss. But overall I really like it. It is my daily driver.

DrivenKeys

11 Jan 2021, 23:05

RaoulRod wrote:
11 Jan 2021, 13:36
I have a F62 compact as well and I left that “natural” with the ping/ring. For the F77 Classic I did the floss mod and it is ring free. There is a very slight increase in activation force with the floss. But overall I really like it. It is my daily driver.
I've been considering the same. I'm typing on my first F77 and still debating the color of my second. I just ordered the Super Floss for testing, but might leave this one bone stock.

DrivenKeys

11 Jan 2021, 23:29

To anyone who wants this board, but is worried about that ping: After hours of reading opinions and watching videos, I still didn't know what to expect. I'm very sensitive to high pitched sounds, and even the best recording won't tell you how it feels in person. So, after wasting far too much time worrying about this, I can say that the ping is much more pleasant and far less irritating than expected, and I have a modern comparison:

Kailh Box Thick Clicks (Navy or Jade) are getting very popular, because they're the only MX switches that approach the feeling of buckling spring. They feel good, but the click is so high pitched, you could hear it a couple rooms away. That would be tolerable, except the Kailh's high pitched click is so piercing, nobody could possibly ignore it. Just like Glarses, I couldn't stand the sound, so I eventually lubed the click bars to tame them.

In comparison, the F's click/ping combo is more subtle, pleasant, and much less piercing. The sound is definitely there, it's not for quiet offices, but it's much less obtrusive. I hated Thick Clicks in stock form, but they have tons of fans that will likely love this Model F without any mods.

Honestly, when I start typing on the F, I always think, "This thing sings!"

consensual-penis

12 Jan 2021, 20:46

so, I'm more than happy to be patient and wait, but I would like to have some form of a timeline for when I'm gonna be getting my keycaps and black case. Not upset, I would just like some kind of update with how much I've spent on this project as a whole.

Ellipse

12 Jan 2021, 22:20

Everyone please do read the project web site blog which has the latest updates on the timeline. The remaining items should be going out to everyone throughout this year. Sorry I can't be more granular as there are too many variables.

DrivenKeys yes the printed key sets as well as individual keys can be ordered in blue, pearl/pebble, or gray.

Great ijdod; glad you joined the project!

DrivenKeys thanks for posting your feedback and recommendations. I am hoping that everyone can post feedback and recommendations to help out the other forum members.

RaoulRod thanks for sharing a photo of your custom modified F77!

User avatar
pyrelink

13 Jan 2021, 18:25

Hi Ellipse, I just ordered some parts to finally finish building my FSSK - from what I have read it looks like Model F controllers and Flippers/Springs were shipping immediately, but I just wanted to confirm that was the case. Thanks!

DrivenKeys

14 Jan 2021, 00:31

I just wanted everyone to know: If you order custom keys ($4/ea), you can have the 1u keys made with the homing nub. I just emailed Ellipse to confirm, and was happy to learn this is possible. As I'm customizing my meta and function key layout, I realized how useful this would be, and I'm excited to be able to personalize to such a fine point.

Ellipse

14 Jan 2021, 00:59

Any recommendations on removing stuck new Model F stabilizer inserts, outside of opening up the keyboard to push it out? These are more solidly secured in the barrels and tougher to remove than original inserts. Maybe hand / non-electric drilling and pulling out the drill+insert might work but it is risky that it would go too far.

I was imagining that some kind of pliers tool was out there where squeezing the pliers would slightly expand and allow a tighter grip on the inside of the stabilizer insert. The straight tip lock ring / snap ring pliers I looked at might work if they are small enough:

https://www.amazon.com/SK-Tools-SKT-763 ... 00061SMZI/
https://www.amazon.com/Wilde-Tool-G407- ... 00HRY1UEW/
https://www.amazon.com/Wilde-Tool-G407- ... 08GYKSBZW/
https://www.amazon.com/Lang-Tools-KAS14 ... 07PDGYXJ9/
https://www.amazon.com/JONNESWAY-AI0400 ... 08D9T9519/

RaoulRod

14 Jan 2021, 02:01

I would imagine a much more effective tool would be one that fits down the hole in the middle of the insert and pulls up instead of putting pressure from the inside out. Something that is shaped like a “L” perhaps where the bottom of the L is small enough so once it gets to the bottom of the shaft you rotate it and catch the bottom of the insert and pull up.

<shrug> just a thought.

- Rod

RaoulRod

14 Jan 2021, 02:08

Something like this set but you would have to cut off the tip of the flat hook so it would fit. It might work. A trip to the hardware store would probably reveal a better choice. You might be able to 3D print one as well...

https://www.amazon.com/ABN-Precision-Sc ... 00T81MLJA/

Post Reply

Return to “Group buys”