F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

Zcool31

20 Jan 2021, 19:06

Ellipse wrote:
20 Jan 2021, 18:20
expected early next year.
Early 2022?

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darkcruix

20 Jan 2021, 23:46

Ellipse wrote:
18 Jan 2021, 18:06
darkcruix would you mind sharing a Bill of Materials for your LED mod? I think it may interest some new Model F owners.
...
It really depends on the configuration. In my case I have a solenoid and two LEDs connected. How to connect the cables is described in my technical reference manual here: https://www.bucklingspring.com/technica ... downloads/ on page 4-97 (191) and the following.
Required parts:
* 4 wires, 10cm to connect the keyboard header with the solenoid header
* 4 wires, 20 cm to connect the keyboard controller with the LEDs
* 2 resistors (200 to 500 Ohm) between LEDs and keyboard controller
* 2 LEDs (3 mm) 20mA
* 2 Metal sockets for 3mm LEDs https://www.amazon.de/-/en/gp/product/B ... UTF8&psc=1
The drill holes need to have a diameter of 5.8mm but I used 6mm and it worked perfectly. I used adhesive tape to cover the drill area, marked it precisely and used a center punch for each hole.
LockLightWire_Full.jpg
LockLightWire_Full.jpg (3.33 MiB) Viewed 3042 times
To reduce the cable mess with individual wires, I have created a little break-out board as shown below. It allows me to connect the solenoid controller with the keyboard controller using two standard 6-pin ribbon cables and gives me additionally the option for two LED connections. Best part is that I have the resistors already on the board (including bypass jumper).
LockLightWire_BreakoutBoard.jpg
LockLightWire_BreakoutBoard.jpg (915.15 KiB) Viewed 3046 times
Normally you would want num-lock / caps-lock to be shown in the lock lights and that works out of the box - just hook up the above LEDs accordingly. In my case I use it to display Layers (Momentarily or Switched). What it means is that no LED lights, if I am in the base layer, when I hit the Layer1 key, a white LED lights up, when I toggle to layer 2, the red LED lights up and stays lit and finally, if I use Layer1 + Layer2 key, I have a third layer and that gives me both LEDs.
Using QMK as firmware makes all this easily available / programmable, as the individual pin headers are selectable and when to light up.

DrivenKeys

21 Jan 2021, 10:27

@darkcruix Thank you for this instruction, this is very exciting. I think I may have just been convinced to get a solenoid as well. This is such a rewarding keyboard!

MrRobot49

21 Jan 2021, 11:26

Zcool31 wrote:
20 Jan 2021, 19:06
Ellipse wrote:
20 Jan 2021, 18:20
expected early next year.
Early 2022?
We were previously advised that other items and printed keys would be shipped early this year, i.e 2021 ... so I'm hoping shipping hasn't been extended by a whole entire year. :?: :?: :?:

Ellipse

21 Jan 2021, 18:05

The container shipment is at sea now and on its way! It is expected to arrive by the end of February.

darkcruix thanks for your great setup instructions for the LEDs.

Zcool31 and MrRobot49 - sorry for the typo - updated to note the keys are "expected this year." The factory is still working on the dye sublimation. They reported this week that they figured out how to get the alignment consistent on each key so we are moving towards the goal well!

Jan Pospisil

21 Jan 2021, 18:42

Oh, nice. That's a relief.

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darkcruix

23 Jan 2021, 13:19

DrivenKeys wrote:
19 Jan 2021, 02:00
Here's a quick collage I put together on my phone of how to make the (hopefully) damage-free insert remover I just mentioned.
...
I just wanted to confirm that this is working spot on in my tests ... I will add this as the standard method to remove the inserts in the Model F manual ... HUGE thanks for this idea. Below a few of the photos I took and some measurements:

I used a screw with a thread diameter of around 4mm:
Screwsize.jpg
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The paper was cut into the size of 5 inches by ½ inch (between 120 mm and 140 mm length and a height of 15mm). I rolled it up so it barely fit into the plastic insert (you need to feel some resistance when inserting the paper):
PaperStrip.jpg
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Finally, I screwed in the screw carefully by holding the paper with pliers. Once the screw is inserted, you can easily pull on it and get it out together with the insert:
RemovedInsert.jpg
RemovedInsert.jpg (203.26 KiB) Viewed 2662 times

elcano

26 Jan 2021, 01:19

darkcruix wrote:
20 Jan 2021, 23:46
It really depends on the configuration. In my case I have a solenoid and two LEDs connected.
@darkcruix, I'm not interested in the solenoid for now. Would it be enough adding the LEDs directly in series with the resistors like in the following diagram?
model_f_keyboard_leds.png
model_f_keyboard_leds.png (13.94 KiB) Viewed 2402 times

Ellipse

26 Jan 2021, 03:56

The screw + paper method seems like the best method so far to remove stabilizer inserts!

Dye sublimation update:

We finally have some approvable key sets! See the below example - please note some keys have been slightly cut off in the photo. And the photo was taken with a camera, not a scanner, so there may be some distortion.

I hope the below key set will be representative of the new Model F sets going out to everyone. The alignment is within the original IBM Model F tolerances I have personally seen from dozens of originals I have collected / restored over the years. The most salient note to the factory is the Print Screen type keys which are a little too close for comfort to the edge but I would not be exchanging someone's keys or key sets if in general they match what IBM deemed acceptable on a sold product; see my 11/10/20 post for more details - one paragraph copied below:

"Some keys will always be slightly out of alignment tolerance - even so with IBM - so the goal is not perfection. According to my digital caliper measurements of an excellent, probably 90th+ percentile IBM XT keyboard example with outstanding sublimation quality, 24% of its keys aligned out of the bounds of the standard deviation (an amazingly tiny 0.15mm!). IBM's out of bounds on this set ranged up from 0.18mm to 0.46mm variance from the average alignment of the key set (still excellent results). As I've seen having owned and refurbed dozens of F's over the years, the standard deviation was far larger / looser on many of the other, later production units."
2021-02-25 test.jpg
2021-02-25 test.jpg (781.65 KiB) Viewed 2363 times
If all goes well the factory is going to try to make a small number of sets of US ANSI, Apple/Mac, and HHKB 6 key and send them to me before Chinese New Year break. That way I can start getting orders out.

To keep things simple I am not going to accept shipping requests for the keys and cannot answer questions of "is my keyboard in this key set batch" (please don't ask!), though everyone can still continue to request separate shipping without keys. Everything will go out in priority order, putting at top of the list the single digit serials, early bird tooling volunteers, and custom/low serial orders in order of the date of your first keyboard ordered. With current production estimates there will be no remaining sets in the first batch for other keyboards. In keeping with policies over the past year, your order cannot go out if even one item cannot ship.

Also now that the second container shipment is on its way, beginning in March (not before March) you can start to request separate shipment for a wider variety of keyboards. Below is a list of the keyboards expected to be received as part of the second container shipment, arriving around the end of February:

Product Name Color Layout Keys
Compact F62 Black ANSI Enter Black unprinted keys
Compact F62 Black ANSI Enter
Compact F62 Black ANSI Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F62 Black ISO Enter Black unprinted keys
Compact F62 Black ISO Enter
Compact F62 Black Split Right Shift and Split Backspace Black unprinted keys
Compact F62 Black Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
Compact F62 Black Split Right Shift and Split Backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F62 Black Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Black unprinted keys
Compact F62 Black Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F62 Black Split Right Shift and 2U backspace and short spacBlack unprinted keys
Compact F62 Carolina Blue Split Right Shift and Split Backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F62 Standard Gray ANSI Enter Black unprinted keys
Compact F62 Standard Gray ANSI Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F62 Standard Gray ISO Enter
Compact F62 Standard Gray Split Right Shift and Split Backspace Black unprinted keys
Compact F62 Standard Gray Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
Compact F62 Standard Gray Split Right Shift and Split Backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F62 Standard Gray Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
Compact F62 Standard Gray Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F77 Black ANSI Enter Black unprinted keys
Compact F77 Black ANSI Enter
Compact F77 Black ANSI Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F77 Black ISO Enter Black unprinted keys
Compact F77 Black ISO Enter
Compact F77 Black ISO Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F77 Black Split Right Shift and Split Backspace Black unprinted keys
Compact F77 Black Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
Compact F77 Black Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Black unprinted keys
Compact F77 Black Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
Compact F77 Black Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F77 Carolina Blue ANSI Enter
Compact F77 Carolina Blue Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
Compact F77 Carolina Blue Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Black unprinted keys
Compact F77 Carolina Blue Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
Compact F77 Dark Blue ANSI Enter
Compact F77 Dark Blue ISO Enter
Compact F77 Dark Blue Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
Compact F77 Regular Gray ANSI Enter Black unprinted keys
Compact F77 Regular Gray ANSI Enter
Compact F77 Regular Gray ANSI Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F77 Regular Gray ISO Enter
Compact F77 Regular Gray Split Right Shift and Split Backspace Black unprinted keys
Compact F77 Regular Gray Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
Compact F77 Regular Gray Split Right Shift and Split Backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
Compact F77 Regular Gray Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Black unprinted keys
Compact F77 Regular Gray Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
F62 Black ANSI Enter Black unprinted keys
F62 Black ANSI Enter
F62 Black ANSI Enter and Split Backspace Black unprinted keys
F62 Black ANSI Enter and Split Backspace
F62 Black ISO Enter
F62 Black ISO Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
F62 Black Split Right Shift and Split Backspace and short lBlack unprinted keys
F62 Black Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Black unprinted keys
F62 Black Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
F62 Black Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
F62 Industrial Gray ANSI Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
F62 Industrial Gray F62 scumnc ANSI Enter
F62 Industrial Gray ISO Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
F62 Industrial Gray Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
F62 Industrial Gray Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
F62 Off-White/Beige F62 scumnc ANSI Enter
F62 Off-White/Beige ISO Enter
F62 Off-White/Beige ISO Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
F62 Off-White/Beige ISO Enter and Split Right Shift, 2U backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
F62 True Red ANSI Enter Black unprinted keys
F62 True Red ANSI Enter
F62 True Red Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
F77 Black ANSI Enter Black unprinted keys
F77 Black ANSI Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
F77 Black ISO Enter Black unprinted keys
F77 Black ISO Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
F77 Black Split Right Shift and Split Backspace Black unprinted keys
F77 Black Split Right Shift and Split Backspace and short lBlack unprinted keys
F77 Black Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Black unprinted keys
F77 Black Split Right Shift and 2U backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
F77 Industrial Gray ANSI Enter Black unprinted keys
F77 Industrial Gray ANSI Enter
F77 Industrial Gray ANSI Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
F77 Industrial Gray ISO Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
F77 Industrial Gray Split Right Shift and Split Backspace Black unprinted keys
F77 Industrial Gray Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
F77 Industrial Gray Split Right Shift and Split Backspace Pearl+pebble blank keys
F77 Off-White/Beige ISO Enter Pearl+pebble blank keys
F77 True Red ANSI Enter Black unprinted keys
Last edited by Ellipse on 28 Jan 2021, 05:02, edited 3 times in total.

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darkcruix

26 Jan 2021, 08:18

elcano wrote:
26 Jan 2021, 01:19
darkcruix wrote:
20 Jan 2021, 23:46
It really depends on the configuration. In my case I have a solenoid and two LEDs connected.
@darkcruix, I'm not interested in the solenoid for now. Would it be enough adding the LEDs directly in series with the resistors like in the following diagram?
model_f_keyboard_leds.png
I put the resistor between the PIN 3 and PIN 5. So, I would get the ground direct (and in series), but the resistors before the PIN connections. In theory your method should work, but I would just give it a try ... worst case, the LEDs will burn out :)
Last edited by darkcruix on 26 Jan 2021, 08:37, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
darkcruix

26 Jan 2021, 08:22

Ellipse wrote:
26 Jan 2021, 03:56
The screw + paper method seems like the best method so far to remove stabilizer inserts!

Dye sublimation update:

We finally have some approvable key sets! See the below example - please note some keys have been slightly cut off in the photo. And the photo was taken with a camera, not a scanner, so there may be some distortion.
...
You made my day - these are beautiful news ... gorgeous set. Looking forward to the day, when I make the first photo of a complete F77 :)

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AlpsComeback

26 Jan 2021, 18:40

Ellipse wrote:
26 Jan 2021, 03:56
The screw + paper method seems like the best method so far to remove stabilizer inserts!

Dye sublimation update:

We finally have some approvable key sets! See the below example - please note some keys have been slightly cut off in the photo. And the photo was taken with a camera, not a scanner, so there may be some distortion.
...
Will there be any 1.5u stepped keys produced? I haven't been able to find them anywhere, not even on Unicomps website.

gliucf

26 Jan 2021, 20:50

Ellipse wrote:
26 Jan 2021, 03:56
We finally have some approvable key sets!
This is so exciting!!

On the subject of custom keys: is there any chance that 1.75u Command keys will be printed? I can't be the only one who loves having a useful modifier key in the Caps Lock position, but uses a Mac, so that the key it's actually useful to have there is Command rather than Control. But I realize this may be too niche, or coming too late in the process.

Ellipse

26 Jan 2021, 22:55

Alps - sorry that would require another mold.

gliucf sorry the only available options and key sizes are on the "extra keys" page, though for the final round this may change.

gliucf

27 Jan 2021, 00:41

Ellipse wrote:
26 Jan 2021, 22:55
gliucf sorry the only available options and key sizes are on the "extra keys" page, though for the final round this may change.
Got it -- thanks for the reply. Looking forward to seeing pictures of everyone's keycap sets!

DeScruff

27 Jan 2021, 01:22

Ellipse wrote:
14 Jan 2021, 00:59
Any recommendations on removing stuck new Model F stabilizer inserts, outside of opening up the keyboard to push it out? These are more solidly secured in the barrels and tougher to remove than original inserts. Maybe hand / non-electric drilling and pulling out the drill+insert might work but it is risky that it would go too far.

I was imagining that some kind of pliers tool was out there where squeezing the pliers would slightly expand and allow a tighter grip on the inside of the stabilizer insert. The straight tip lock ring / snap ring pliers I looked at might work if they are small enough:

https://www.amazon.com/SK-Tools-SKT-763 ... 00061SMZI/
https://www.amazon.com/Wilde-Tool-G407- ... 00HRY1UEW/
https://www.amazon.com/Wilde-Tool-G407- ... 08GYKSBZW/
https://www.amazon.com/Lang-Tools-KAS14 ... 07PDGYXJ9/
https://www.amazon.com/JONNESWAY-AI0400 ... 08D9T9519/
For similar kinda situations Ive always used crochet hooks since the hook heads can get quite thin
EDIT: nevermind wouldn't work in this kinda situation as far as I can see. The stablizers get too close to the board the hookhead can't hook. Ahh well

Ellipse

27 Jan 2021, 18:32

Dye sub update: Good news! The factory finalized the alignment and said they are ready to start production. We only have a few days left before Chinese New Year but if all goes well they hope to send some key sets before the break starts.

Also as a general note, in addition to what was listed before, thousands of other accessory parts including extra unprinted keys are also shipping in the current container shipment - including beam controllers, solenoids, solenoid drivers, extra keyboard cases and packaging, blue keys, and dark gray keys.

DrivenKeys

28 Jan 2021, 11:03

darkcruix wrote:
23 Jan 2021, 13:19

I just wanted to confirm that this is working spot on in my tests ... I will add this as the standard method to remove the inserts in the Model F manual ... HUGE thanks for this idea.
That's awesome! Again, I'm very happy I could help. You just brought a big smile to my face. It's tough to feel useful while locked at home.

DrivenKeys

28 Jan 2021, 11:10

Ellipse wrote:
27 Jan 2021, 18:32
Dye sub update: Good news! The factory finalized the alignment and said they are ready to start production. We only have a few days left before Chinese New Year but if all goes well they hope to send some key sets before the break starts.
This all looks incredible, and I'm actually enjoying the wait. Thanks again for quality we can savor.

DrivenKeys

28 Jan 2021, 11:22

gliucf wrote:
26 Jan 2021, 20:50
On the subject of custom keys: is there any chance that 1.75u Command keys will be printed? I can't be the only one who loves having a useful modifier key in the Caps Lock position, but uses a Mac,
Just in case you haven't tried this: I'm not sure how you feel about using a 1.5u Command key there, but I found a 1.5u key fits properly aligned to the left edge, and feels just like the stepped 1.75u key from a stock Model M. Even though I ordered hhkb keys, I'm still going to use the 1.5u key, since I originally preferred a stepped key. Since the plate underneath looks so nice, the little gap doesn't bother me.

gliucf

28 Jan 2021, 22:51

DrivenKeys wrote:
28 Jan 2021, 11:22
Just in case you haven't tried this: I'm not sure how you feel about using a 1.5u Command key there, but I found a 1.5u key fits properly aligned to the left edge, and feels just like the stepped 1.75u key from a stock Model M. Even though I ordered hhkb keys, I'm still going to use the 1.5u key, since I originally preferred a stepped key. Since the plate underneath looks so nice, the little gap doesn't bother me.
That's a nice suggestion! Thank you. It's possible I am too gap-averse, but I'll keep this in mind.

Ellipse

29 Jan 2021, 06:13

Thanks to Zed's updates of the sublimation artwork, the factory received the approved artwork for production today! As seen in the prior samples, the artwork was a little thicker than the IBM originals (I guess because of a bit of bleed/dye migration in the sublimation process) so now the legends should be the same thickness as the originals. The factory will be doing some testing and will then finally start production in the final days before CNY break!

The key sets were the last aspect of production for bringing the Model F back to life and it is great that production is starting, though only a small number of sets can possibly be completed and mailed to me in the remaining days before their time off. When they return their focus will be on ramping up sublimation. I ended up spending significantly more than expected on several units of customized equipment and additional costs for dye sublimation - all new! Since we are making thousands of key sets (plus thousands of individual extra keys) it will take months to complete. I expect them to send sets as they go as opposed to everything only when everything is done but this is not finalized.

The keys proved to be the most difficult part of the project. As noted on the project web site blog, production of the first key molds begin in early 2017 and failed to achieve IBM's tolerances that I had required, costing 5 figures in losses that were not recovered. Then production of the key molds started with another factory in late 2017 and succeeded, but it took over one year to create the molds and finish the first order of keys (a typical injection mold can be completed in 30-60 days or less, like for the barrels and flippers). (However as detailed on the blog, there were many other challenges along the way and the timing was such that the keys were not a bottleneck to finishing production and assembly of the early bird keyboards' first batch received in late 2019 - had we not ordered brand new keys the keyboards would still have been shipped around the same time). After years of my own sublimation R&D (overlapping with the key production timeline) and R&D over in China starting in May 2020 we are finally at the production stage of what I believe are IBM XT quality one piece Model F keys!

User avatar
darkcruix

29 Jan 2021, 18:08

You can be very proud of the results! I assumed that the keys would be super difficult to get over the finishing line. I am actually super happy that you did what you say you would do - getting the best possible product out there, within the IBM tolerances.
If there wouldn't be the Covid-19 situation, I would take a plane and support you in QA testing or whatever is required.
I am super happy to be a tiny part of this project ... WOW

Ellipse

31 Jan 2021, 08:29

The latest monthly update is now on the project web site blog:
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/

As noted before, a big thanks to Deskthority forum member Zed for creating and updating the sublimation artwork. The factory received the approved artwork for production and started production this week. We only have a few days left before Chinese New Year but if all goes well the factory is going to try to make a small number of sets of US ANSI, Apple/Mac, and HHKB 6 key and send them to me before Chinese New Year break. That way I can start getting orders with printed key sets out.

Below are examples of some of the production Brand New Model F key sets bagged up and ready to be express mailed to me:
20210131 Key sets - Copy.jpg
20210131 Key sets - Copy.jpg (365.33 KiB) Viewed 1160 times
And here are two Enter keys hanging out together (this is from finalized dye sublimation artwork). The texture is so fresh on the new key molds that the legends seem to glisten if the key is positioned just at the right angle to a light source. Of course there’s no glistening, just deep black when viewing the keys as you are typing on the keyboard as opposed to viewing straight down with a strong light source.

The angle of lighting and the angle of your camera definitely affect the perception of the keys as shown by these two identical keys at slightly different angles.
20210131_141514 Enter keys.jpg
20210131_141514 Enter keys.jpg (604.43 KiB) Viewed 1160 times

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darkcruix

31 Jan 2021, 16:12

Stunning...

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shampoo

31 Jan 2021, 16:40

Ya, ditto. Those look fantastic!

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strah

01 Feb 2021, 17:07

Can't wait to see how the dark grey keycaps look with the dyesub legends

Ellipse

02 Feb 2021, 05:29

Dye sublimation update: The factory expects to send approximately 200 sets of each type (~200 ANSI US, ~200 HHKB, ~200 Mac) this week! This is far more than expected (the expectation was ~50). This means that an even larger number of single digit and low serials can start going out, so long as there are no other printed keys besides those three types of sets in the order. Here are the approximate number of low/custom serial keyboards by year, some of which do not have pearl/pebble printed ANSI sets.

2016 63
2017 104
2018 106
2019 146
2020 135
2021 18
Total 572

To avoid further complications I will not accept "split split shipping" requests - all the printed keys someone ordered will ship in the same shipment.

I also asked them to include in the express mail shipment about 50 "B stock" non-approved key sets made during their testing - not up to my standards but not unusable. These sets are among the very first new Model F sets and have the slightly thicker artwork in the below link, and definitely a number of keys with less precise alignment, possibly worse or possibly better than what was in this photo: viewtopic.php?p=477782#p477782

In the interest of getting out as many printed key sets as possible, these "B stock" key sets are going to be made available for fast shipment (within several weeks) at a higher price to help cover the thousands of dollars in project cost overruns incurred just on items related to the dye sublimation, as well as help cover the significant express mail fees of shipping lots of keys by air mail.

By ordering one of these "B stock" sets you will be one of the first to receive a printed key set, and is a good option to consider if you are not 100% picky on achieving IBM Model F standards of alignment as I am and would prefer to start using a printed key set as soon as possible. After these sets I won't be offering B stock at all. The factory will just replace any keys in a key set based on my tolerance specifications so that they won't have to discard an entire key set.

In the interest of honoring the original priority from the beginning of the project (where feasible: single digit, then low serial, then all remaining keyboards), no one can order now any of the first batch of printed sets that are shipping.
Last edited by Ellipse on 02 Feb 2021, 16:51, edited 2 times in total.

DrivenKeys

02 Feb 2021, 07:23

Thanks for the detailed update, Ellipse. I'm patiently excited to receive these incredible keys.

I like the idea of purchasing a B stock keyset (historical imperfection). I think I might cancel another keyboard to buy more Model F parts, it's much more satisfying.

And thank you for posting about my stabilizer removal technique in your blog. I'm happy to have (sligthly) contributed to the project.

Jan Pospisil

02 Feb 2021, 10:07

*cries in uk iso*

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