F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

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darkcruix

04 Mar 2021, 17:21

raoulduke-esq wrote:
04 Mar 2021, 14:59
darkcruix wrote:
03 Mar 2021, 18:03
For me it is a good mixture of both. I tend to stay 60% on MacOS and then the navigation keys are different to Windows (e.g. Home/End are not to jump to the beginning and end of a line but the full text). I could remap them, but as I change between Linux and Windows also, it isn't practical. On Windows I find myself rarely using the num-pad and always have the Nav Cluster active.
This is one of the first things I do whenever I get a new Mac or do a clean install. Makes Home/End work like they would in other OSes without needing to change anything on the keyboard.

Are those the FENTEK relegendables? If so, do they come with just the clear top, or with both parts of a 2-piece key?
These are those two piece ones. I have some of them ordered years ago from Ellipse but found another source about 2 years ago and bought them NOS.

With Cmd+Arrow Left and Cmd+Arrow Right etc. I used to do the same (but as a macro on the keyboard), I wasn't aware about this solution - NICE!
I also think that Apple made a bad decision to have PageUp and PageDown designed that the cursor doesn't follow ... but that would be a complete different discussion :)

Sam

05 Mar 2021, 00:36

darkcruix wrote:
04 Mar 2021, 08:13
Sam wrote:
04 Mar 2021, 05:34
Darkcuix, that looks very nice. If I can ask, I assume you're using that keyboard with a Mac. How do you have it setup for switching to Caps Lock?
I never had the desire, nor the need to write all caps ;). But just in case it would be needed, I have Fn+Ctrl mapped.
Oh, I just realized, you have 1.5U Option/Alt keys. Where did you get those? I don't see those listed on Eclipse's site, only 1U there.

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raoulduke-esq

05 Mar 2021, 01:12

photometer wrote:
02 Mar 2021, 18:50
IMG_E3475.JPG


My F77 with all keys - I have the complete set now -yay!!

The key feel is really good. The Lettering is really dark.
Btw, the orange key is re-legendable key from Fentek that I have configured to open the calculator app.
Does Fentek give you both parts of a two-part keycap, or do they just sell the clear upper?

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depletedvespene

05 Mar 2021, 02:22

Fentek sells the clear upper cap.

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raoulduke-esq

05 Mar 2021, 04:28

depletedvespene wrote:
05 Mar 2021, 02:22
Fentek sells the clear upper cap.
Thanks for that!!

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darkcruix

05 Mar 2021, 09:13

Sam wrote:
05 Mar 2021, 00:36
darkcruix wrote:
04 Mar 2021, 08:13
Sam wrote:
04 Mar 2021, 05:34
Darkcuix, that looks very nice. If I can ask, I assume you're using that keyboard with a Mac. How do you have it setup for switching to Caps Lock?
I never had the desire, nor the need to write all caps ;). But just in case it would be needed, I have Fn+Ctrl mapped.
Oh, I just realized, you have 1.5U Option/Alt keys. Where did you get those? I don't see those listed on Eclipse's site, only 1U there.
These two are from Unicomp

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phinix

05 Mar 2021, 15:38

I wonder if it would be possible to create some kind of flat caps for two keys above arrow cluster, just to make it even with case.
Clipboard01.jpg
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Ellipse

05 Mar 2021, 17:38

Someone was talking about designing a 3D printed plug (and maybe putting in the Shapeways marketplace) where you remove the barrel and snap in the plug, or you put the plug on top of a barrel with no key so as not to require opening up the keyboard. I can't seem to find my old discussion on this with the person.

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robo

05 Mar 2021, 18:55

I remember asking about that a while ago, although I remember coming away with the impression that it wasn't practical.

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robo

05 Mar 2021, 19:44

BTW, does anyone have a photo of the USB port on the back of the F77? Oops, I guess the cable is non-detachable, at least externally.

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wobbled

05 Mar 2021, 21:35

If anyone is interested in buying my F62 compact I've listed it here as an auction. It's a single digit serial (7) and includes both compact and classic cases, as well as a full set of industrial ssk blue keys.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/164742931926 ... 1555.l2649

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phinix

05 Mar 2021, 22:04

Ellipse wrote:
05 Mar 2021, 17:38
Someone was talking about designing a 3D printed plug (and maybe putting in the Shapeways marketplace) where you remove the barrel and snap in the plug, or you put the plug on top of a barrel with no key so as not to require opening up the keyboard. I can't seem to find my old discussion on this with the person.
Yeah, that would be ideal.
I just can't re-program my brain - my hand goes looking for a cursor cluster gap to find Del - 30 years of using TKL, first 10 years on Model M and DOS Norton Commander...

sofauxboho

06 Mar 2021, 01:03

Ellipse wrote:
19 Feb 2021, 07:51
Does anyone have Mac-specific recommendations for their new Model F on QMK? Was anything needed to alter from the defaults? Are any of the key or function combinations different for media keys like volume, or Esc? Someone has emailed me asking for advice.
Ellipse, I think I bought this keyboard from the person who'd been asking you about it:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Mode ... 4727086155

After a tough initial run (most of the documentation still suggests using the xwhatsit ibm_capsense_usb_util for configuration) I determined this controller was already running QMK. I found a URL for an xwhatsit compatible version of the QMK configurator (from another eBay listing, of all places), determined the bootloader reset combo by trying the ones listed in the official QMK documentation, and then I was off to the races.

I've now got it up and running as Dvorak / QWERTY switchable, and am typing this very post on it. The escape key and all the other keys I've tested work fine on both Windows and MacOS. (I haven't tested any media / volume keys, because I don't care about them.) I don't know what the original purchaser's problem might have been, but it's working well for me.

One note: It sure would be nice if the text on the "Code" page of the Brand New Model F Keyboards site that says "head over to the Deskthority project thread to request an invite to the beta" were an actual link to this thread. For those who aren't in the know (like myself) it takes some Googling around to locate. A link would have been easier.

deskilu

06 Mar 2021, 16:18

Does the F77 not have a detachable cord?

CallmeJohn

06 Mar 2021, 16:21

deskilu wrote:
06 Mar 2021, 16:18
Does the F77 not have a detachable cord?
Yes but you have to open it up to change the cord.

Ellipse

06 Mar 2021, 17:29

sofauxboho that is good news - I have tested the new Model F keyboards with both xwhatsit and QMK firmware on a Mac and 100% of the functionality worked right out of the box, including media keys, escape, etc. I've updated the "code" page to the latest instructions: "QMK firmware (please register on Deskthority.net and send a PM to pandrew to request an invite to the beta)"

Once the firmware is out of beta my understanding is that it will be integrated with the public QMK project.

deskilu the compact case keyboards have cables that can detach without opening up the keyboard. The classic models require opening up the case (it's 4 screws). Alternatively you can switch the long USB cable for a short cord so that the cable is removable from the outside - some links were posted earlier in the thread with suggestions.

russypt

08 Mar 2021, 15:41


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Bjerrk

08 Mar 2021, 16:25

russypt wrote:
08 Mar 2021, 15:41
LGR Blerb Review is up!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_XhRdWdphU
Let's hope the Model F Labs website can withstand the influx :D

xyzzy

08 Mar 2021, 16:33

russypt wrote:
08 Mar 2021, 15:41
LGR Blerb Review is up!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_XhRdWdphU
What a useless review. He's basically spending most of the time ranting about the keyboard not having function keys or a riser.
Which specs was he looking at when he bought it?

And most of the comments are on the same line. What a shame.

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Bjerrk

08 Mar 2021, 16:40

xyzzy wrote:
08 Mar 2021, 16:33
What a useless review. He's basically spending most of the time ranting about the keyboard not having function keys or a riser.
Which specs was he looking at when he bought it?

And most of the comments are on the same line. What a shame.
Yeah. A bit of a let-down.

But he clearly does appreciate the amazing keyfeel.

photometer

08 Mar 2021, 18:07

xyzzy wrote:
08 Mar 2021, 16:33
russypt wrote:
08 Mar 2021, 15:41
LGR Blerb Review is up!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_XhRdWdphU
What a useless review. He's basically spending most of the time ranting about the keyboard not having function keys or a riser.
Which specs was he looking at when he bought it?

And most of the comments are on the same line. What a shame.
It took me few days to get my keyboard working exactly as I wanted (pm pandrew, install QMK, learn QMK, install flashing tools). Not everybody will have that patience or even ability to do the customization.
When I watched the video, I realized that some of the customization that I did could have been done as default. For eg. the right Ctrl key should be right Ctrl and not Fn key. Ellipse should have used the following default configuration
[space bar][Alt][Fn][Ctrl].
The keyboard is excellent, if it configured correctly. Folks, who are incapable of flashing custom firmware will get frustrated, which then overshadows the fine piece of equipment.

nickg

08 Mar 2021, 18:40

Well his review is about what i expected, thankfully I dont have a problem downloading and fleshing stuff. Cant wait for my boards to ship. The hype builds each time i remember it.

Ellipse

08 Mar 2021, 23:57

I saw the LGR video and have included my replies below as well as in the YouTube comments section.

Do people prefer Fn between Left Ctrl and Left Alt? I use the GUI key a lot in order to open programs.

Also someone mentioned the ability to have more than one layout programmed with QMK, in order to switch layouts. Is that something that's easy to do? Wondering if I could program one as the default (say if someone chooses 0-9 and cursor keys) and then with a key combination the user can switch to the layout with the Ins/Del/etc. right side block.

My comments below:

I thought I'd reply with some of my thoughts on the points in the video.

As a general note I am pretty open to feedback from everyone - just send over a message! The goal of the project is to make the Model F experience as fun as possible, despite the quirks of setting up and using the new or original Model F keyboards.

Industrial Gray color - IBM colors seemed to vary slightly over time. The IBM Industrial Gray color selected for the project is matched to an original IBM Industrial SSK, part 1395682 - the case bottom was sent to the factory so they could custom mix the color since an exact Pantone type match could not be found. There are other IBM Industrial Gray colors that are less olive and more neutral gray, including an IBM Industrial Gray XT type keyboard. I would describe the Industrial SSK gray as a gray-green-tan type color.

Yep you certainly deserve serial 0 thanks to your support of the project - the serials start at 0 for each of the keyboard models. You have the first production serial! I am glad that this keyboard will be in your rotation of keyboards, even if it is not a daily driver!

Some springs not seated properly during the unboxing: unfortunately sometimes a few springs move out of place as these keyboards are bounced around in shipping - hope it did not take too much time for you to adjust the Enter key and space bar. My recommendation to everyone is to check out the project manual for the key installation video (of which a quick clip was shown in your video). Holding the keyboard vertically, space bar end up is the quickest way to successfully re-seat any of the keys.

Offline/standalone QMK configuration program - seems like a good idea. Hopefully the QMK folks can consider it.

The old xwhatsit firmware was problematic for a small but significant number of folks so we switched to QMK. QMK is currently in beta but will hopefully move to the main project soon.

Longwinded/not too clear documentation - yes you are correct! Hoping to improve this.

Keyboard feet - the stick on or screw on feet options allow for up to a 1 inch rise similar to the height of the other Model F keyboards, with other options for 1/8 inch, 1/4 inch, and 1/2 inch. Most people only ask for the cork but people can pick another set for free if they'd like - let me know if you wanted any of the other feet and I'll mail them to you.

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/extra-bumpers/

Regarding the default layout programming - there are a lot of good suggestions for better placement of the Fn key from where I put it in the default. Some people put it in the blank key to the left of the Up cursor key. I see how between Ctrl and Alt is also good to consider for certain key combinations with the left hand.

Regarding lack of additional keys for media editing and other types of work - agreed that the compact Model F keyboards are best for certain tasks but not for all tasks. I believe they are best for writing/typing, including long typing/programming sessions, and not as strong for gaming and work on other media.

Regarding outdated Q&A forum posts - thanks for letting me know about this. I just cleaned up some of the old Q&A posts related to the older stuff - hope this improves things. If anyone sees anything that's out of date I always appreciate a heads up so I can update it.

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funkmon

09 Mar 2021, 00:22

I think LGR was right on some stuff. I don't like that the keyboard doesn't have the included feet. I don't like that it doesn't have a full numpad. I hate the QMK firmware. I flashed xwhatsit back on there as soon as I figured out how to do it.

On the other hand, the keyboard is a clone of a keyboard without the feet. It doesn't have a full numpad. The key layout is relatively standard for modern keyboards so doing anything beyond that is just asking for customization, which you can do easily by the way, if you're using the normal firmware, and very not easily if you're using QMK. But it's doable.

So Ellipse, if I were you, I wouldn't change anything. The comments he makes are basically personal preference, and you're not catering to that. You're remaking the F77 keyboard. His criticisms are valid, but they shouldn't change how you do the keyboard.

That being said, for the love of god post an easy howto on the FAQ page or something called "Don't like QMK? Here's how to flash the xwhatsit firmware!" and put a simple step by step thing on how to do that, because when my next one comes in the mail I'm going to have to figure out how the hell I managed to do that on the last one.

Ellipse

09 Mar 2021, 01:22

funkmon thanks for your reply. In the new project manual I have a step by step guide with screenshots in the following section:

Xwhatsit software/firmware installation and configuration

It's a number of additional steps the first time you flash any ATMEGA32U2 based device on your computer but is much easier after the initial setup.

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funkmon

09 Mar 2021, 01:43

Awesome. And just to make it clear, I think most of the criticism of the board is really for the original board. Yours is great.

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depletedvespene

09 Mar 2021, 01:55

Ellipse wrote:
08 Mar 2021, 23:57
I saw the LGR video and have included my replies below as well as in the YouTube comments section.

Do people prefer Fn between Left Ctrl and Left Alt? I use the GUI key a lot in order to open programs.


Obdis.: MOPP. YMMV.

On the text of my (still unplublished, but finally progressing) review, I do mention that I've found to have the Fn key in BOTH 1U keys between Ctrl and Alt, and LGUI mapped to the 1U key on the external side of the (split) right Shift to be the best compromise, to ease access of the F keys when those are frequently used (plus several other mappings).

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Gunsight1

09 Mar 2021, 02:12

So just watched the LGR video and I'm kinda disappointed in a lot of the complaints he made about the board, which is sad because normally I agree with/like his commentary on things quite a lot, this time not so much and I think a lot of it is not the fault of the hardware, but rather his choices and just, I donno, misjudged expectations?

So, sure the software for remapping keys is not the easiest to use, and requires some effort to get and use, but it is in BETA right now and will eventually become easier and more accessible to use as it gets sorted out.

The feet are totally on him. The bumpers were well advertised, when I ordered mine there was the big thing that said, add a set for free!" and when I clicked the link, oh hey big ONE INCH RUBBER BUMPERS, yes please! laying flat issue solved.

The lack of dedicated function keys and a numpad/command cluster (depending on your selected option), come on, he knew this was a 77 key compact keyboard going into this from the start, the original board never had these things in the first place as well and if those added keys are a must have for work stuff, well, this is just not the board he should be using for video editing and such. I know I do video editing too and its pretty specialized and needs a full size 103-104 key setup, sure, use a full size board for that. For day to day use though, this thing works amazingly well for typing and gaming and the added key needed for switching to the function layer with those F keys and everything else really is no big deal, acclaiming to the new compact setup was like, less than a week. Now that I've been typing with this for what almost a month now? It's all automatic

I think the right Ctrl key was a good choice for the function key, personally, I use the Win key all the time, and would be driven way more nuts missing that than right Ctrl.

Really most of the stuff he has taken issue with was either due to him not ordering the right feet or personal preference/needs for specialized stuff. This is a new build of a specific couple Model F keyboards and going into this from the start, we all knew what to expect and so did he, I think to grade it down because of that is no bueno, ya'know?

Ellipse, keep on chugging along as you are, I love this keyboard so much, literally typing on my computer is fun again. Don't change a thing!

Sam

09 Mar 2021, 02:36

I think there's a lot of merits to the complaints in LGR Blerbs Video, but in my case I am using it for my daily driver, and just dealing with learning new keyboard habits and breaking the habits of the past 30 years. It's a bit painful at first, but hopefully will be worth it in the long run.

Specifically, about the lack of feet, I realized that before I ordered, and knowing that I always like the back of my keyboard raised, ordered mine with the rubber risers. No problem. I guess if I was someone who liked the feet raised and lowered it wouldn't be as good, but I simply always use my keyboard raised, so no problem.

The QMK method is far from ideal, and many of the complaints there are totally valid. It took way too much time to get through the documentation to figure out what needs to be done. There really needs to be a quick start guide to using QMK to reconfigure your keyboard. Even once I did figure things out, still it doesn't work flawlessly. For example, erasing the EEPROM lead to a dead-end, and I needed to restart it in order to properly flash my configuration. In the end though, I succeeded, but just it took some hours to do rather than a few minutes which would be ideal. Given that I use my keyboard for 16 hours or more per day, I think spending a couple hours to configure my keyboard correctly is well worth the time, but I fully understand how some people will find doing that to be too daunting given the lack of a VERY clear/concise documentation of how to do it.

Originally I hoped to have the key to the right of the right shift as my Fn key, but quickly realized that the Fn key is in constant use, being as with LGR, I'm ALWAYS using the F1-12 keys. So as he mentioned what he'd like, I ended up assigning two Fn keys to the two "blank" keys between the Ctrl and Alts. That way I can access the F1-F12 keys and anything else on the second layer with either left or right hand to hit one of the Fn keys. That's really necessary for me, because I need to always be hitting a Fn key, and it would be awkward to be limited to just one Fn key and stretch my hand frequently to hit the desired key in combination with it. This is especially true for cursoring, which I do constantly throughout the day, while editing files. I'm going to try to get used to breaking away from using the numpad as a cursor cluster, which I've used for the past 30 years, and using a similar cursor cluster on the U/I/O/J/K/L/M/,/. keys, in order to limit the need for taking my hand off the home row position. To use a right handed Fn key to access the cursor cluster would be horribly inefficient to my way of thinking. For anyone with a F62, do you find accessing the cursor cluster with a right handed Fn key to be efficient? I'd certainly like to know how. So it's absolutely mandatory for me to have a left Fn key for the cursor cluster. I haven't ever used the Windows or Menu keys in those positions, because they didn't exist on my old keyboards. I added a key for those, on the second layer, for the very few times where I might find a need to use them. I realize some people need those Windows/Menu keys, but for me, I've been using Model F's and M's long before those keys ever existed. Now if someone needs both a left and right Fn key, putting them in a symmetrically centered (balanced) position seems most logical. So then there's only one of three places that makes sense: Ctrl position, Windows/Menu position, or Alt position. That's my take on it, but I can understand that there's absolutely no pleasing everyone, so no matter what you choose for the default configuration, somebody won't be happy. What would be nice though would be to have premade configurations in the most common layouts that people use, and have a graphic image of those layouts and the name of the configuration files, and some simple instructions with screenshots for a layperson to follow in easily setting up their layout to what's their ideal, or close to it. For me, I doubt anyone would choose my layout, because I gave a lot of thought to it, and made some strange tweaks that suit my style. But there will be some people who simply don't want to spend the time to figure it out, and just choose from an existing configuration.

I would love to have a Model F in a Model M 104 key layout, especially for access to real F1-F12 keys along the top, but I realize there's probably not much of a market for that, so not worthwhile to build one. Hopefully I can adjust quickly to this layout, and gain some speed advantage by not needing to move my fingers quite as much to reach for the F1-F12 keys. I didn't realize how many bad keyboard habits I had until getting my F77 and really thinking about my keystrokes. I have quite a few of those bad habits to unlearn along with learning the new layout.

Anyways, I took a long hard look at the keyboard layout/specs before ordering, and knew exactly what I was getting, so in my case I've not been disappointed at all. And I fully realize that this keyboard was targeting to be a very close replica of the original IBM F62 and F77 keyboards. I fully get that, so cannot complain, even though as said, my ideal keyboard would have been a bit different. I really appreciate all the effort Ellipse has put into this project, Darkcruix for the documentation, and anyone else who's been involved. I expect these are the last keyboards I'll need to buy in my lifetime, and the build quality seems to be well within what's needed to make that happen.

Sam

09 Mar 2021, 02:55

Ellipse wrote:
08 Mar 2021, 23:57
Industrial Gray color - IBM colors seemed to vary slightly over time. The IBM Industrial Gray color selected for the project is matched to an original IBM Industrial SSK, part 1395682 - the case bottom was sent to the factory so they could custom mix the color since an exact Pantone type match could not be found. There are other IBM Industrial Gray colors that are less olive and more neutral gray, including an IBM Industrial Gray XT type keyboard. I would describe the Industrial SSK gray as a gray-green-tan type color.
To me, the Silver Gray color looks quite bluish. I kept looking at it and wondered why, until I googled it. Gray colors are quite affected by the background. For instance, a brown/orange background will make gray look quite different than if against a white background. In the case of that video, my guess is that the Industrial Gray also has a similar phenomenon and he has the keyboard on a woodgrain desk, which maybe affects what color he perceives the keyboard to be. And it can also vary a lot from one person to another as to what color they perceive it to be. I personally wouldn't worry about it.

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