F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

Ellipse

14 Mar 2021, 23:06

I have tested the darkcruix Model F Via and it is working very well!

Some very important steps for Via: one of the first steps to click settings, check "shown design tab" and allow remapping via keyboard.

And also you have to load the JSON file before the keyboard is detected, otherwise the home screen will stay on searching for devices.

Ellipse

15 Mar 2021, 17:45

The factory has air mailed the next batch of sublimated keys! Still they are all US ANSI regular printed key sets, HHKB 6 key sets, and Mac sets for now.

350 full ANSI US key sets are included in this batch.

Now they will have sent me enough key sets for the time being so that I am now the bottleneck in terms of testing and mailing out each keyboard! As I noted last week, it's going to take me probably between several months and the rest of the year to mail out all the keyboards and there is no more separate shipping or other early requests. The only way to prioritize is with the custom/low serial option.

EnthusiastDude

15 Mar 2021, 19:25

Hey Ellipse, when is shipment of keyboards with non US-ANSI (particularly ISO-DE) planned?

BucklingSprings

15 Mar 2021, 22:22

webwit wrote:
11 Mar 2021, 22:40
I don't know this LGR guy, but this is like buying a Ferrari reproduction and then talking about that it isn't a hatchback. Ok then.
I felt the same way watching the review. If you shell out that kind of money for a keyboard
you should probably know what to expect and why you are buying it. Maybe LGR did not
really "want" it but just had to get it for his channel?
I bet that chyrosran22 will review it some day and _that_ review will be great.

BucklingSprings

15 Mar 2021, 22:32

And last week it happened: the '[' key stopped registering on my F77. No amount of tweaking the
voltage threshold in capsense fixed it. I had to manually stretch the spring of this key a bit. That
fixed it. The spring did buckle before the stretching - but somehow did not manage to get the flipper
into the right position.
I guess that's the kind of thing users of this keyboard need to expect. It can require a bit of
maintenance here and there. Its not like a $20 rubber dome that we just replace if something
starts to fail.

User avatar
kremor

15 Mar 2021, 23:33

Will Unicomp still provide the ISO enter keys or are they going to be manufactured in the factory?

Ellipse

16 Mar 2021, 00:15

EnthusiastDude - all other key sets are expected to be completed in April and May

BucklingSprings I have not heard of that issue, very strange. I wonder if it's also an issue with the QMK and its auto-voltage threshold adjustments.

kremor I have sent hundreds of Unicomp ISO enter keys over to the factory as I don't have a mold for any stepped keys. The sublimation jigs were designed to work with these ISO Enter keys as one of the keys on the jig.

CallmeJohn

16 Mar 2021, 01:06

Ellipse are the keysets just the standard colours or does that include the in blue, black, grey and custom printed caps?

Ellipse

16 Mar 2021, 01:20

Current sets are just the pearl/pebble color scheme, with all others to follow later. Many unprinted pearl/pebble and black sets were installed to keyboards based on what people ordered, and those were received with the batch of keyboards that arrived this month. Gray and blue unprinted sets are not installed to the keyboards but are now in stock again, having arrived in the same batch.

User avatar
XMIT
[ XMIT ]

16 Mar 2021, 13:49

I am using an F77 for a spell. Serial number 835.

On the unit I have, which has a standard ANSI layout, the right Shift key was absolutely unusable in terms of stabilization. It came from the factory this way. Ellipse needs to get with the factory and tweak those molds, don't know how this got past quality control.

When I pulled the barrel stabilizer for the right Shift key it looked like it had been drilled out. This is a view of the stabilizers looking "up", from the PCB toward the ceiling. The left is the one I pulled from this F77 (with great effort using needle nose pliers, the fit is very tight compared to my Model Ms). The right is one I just pulled from a 1994 Lexmark M.
DSC_3114.jpeg
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From years of experience with Model M keyboards: Never ever do this!!!

The "right" way to deal with stabilizer binding issues is to use a dry grease, such as Finish Line Extreme Fluoro, on the stabilizing pin of the right Shift key. But that internal taper on the stabilizer insert absolutely positively needs to be present in order to prevent the key from rotating too much about the Y (fore-aft) axis on its way down.

I may modify this board to use a wire stabilized right Shift key, those tend to behave better.
Last edited by XMIT on 17 Mar 2021, 01:31, edited 1 time in total.

Ellipse

16 Mar 2021, 19:09

XMIT is correct - should not be drilling out inserts. XMIT please do show photos of the wire stabilizer mod if you don't mind - I do like those keys better!

While QCing hundreds of these keyboards, I have found a completely harmless way to eliminate stabilizer binding 100% of the time, without using grease or anything else. The issue is not with the insert.

As noted earlier, I have instructed the factory to test the 2U and wider keys for binding and to fix any that bind. You have to do some of the below steps several times in some instances of binding.

The full section from the project manual is copied below:

Key binding – 2.25U and larger keys getting stuck. Possible fixes:

Gently wiggle the key post (the part that goes into the stabilizer insert) a few times in the direction of the left and right sides of the key if you were to look at the key as oriented on a keyboard – seems to eliminate binding when the extreme edges of a key are pressed. Be very gentle as this is the easiest part to break on a key!

Gently squeeze key stem of the key a few times seems to make the key work 100% well and slide freely (try squeezing a few times, squeeze and hold for 10-30 seconds, and then squeeze and gently move the squeezed stem left and right while holding the key with your other hand). Your fingers should be positioned so as to squeeze deeply into the key, as deep as possible, not just at the very end of the key stem. A video on this fix: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBgQ9AO1Z_c

Burnish back side of barrel with spring – use model m nut driver.
Keep stabilizer insert 1mm above top of barrel and there is no binding. Alternatively maybe add a 1mm piece of foam under side of key where stabilizer insert goes. Example story: “It seems like the left barrel (the empty one) on the space bar was binding a bit. I solved it by cutting a thin foam disk (about 2mm thick) and sticking that into the outer barrel on the bottom of the space bar. This limited the travel just enough to avoid binding. Once that was done, the keyboard was perfect.”

And one last method that worked: “I did add a little bit of Syncro Superlube and that did it. Thanks!”

User avatar
XMIT
[ XMIT ]

17 Mar 2021, 01:32

The person who previously had the board reports that they did not modify the stabilizer inserts, which means it was delivered to them with this drilled out looking stabilizer insert. Curious.

Ellipse

17 Mar 2021, 03:04

Today's dye sublimation update:

The factory has received the additional sublimation equipment and is custom manufacturing more jigs in order to sublimate with three machines at one time. Their goal is to have daily production capacity of about 180 jigs' worth of keys in total, as noted before.

They expect to set up the additional equipment and continue sublimating keys in the coming weeks and ramp up to full production in April. They expect to finish all the sublimation in May and continue express mailing me batches of keys periodically.

XMIT would you like me to mail you a replacement for the bad insert? Feel free to PM me your address and I'll throw one in the mail for you.

User avatar
darkcruix

17 Mar 2021, 10:11

I have added the tested VIA files (Firmware, Layout, and small PDF that explains things).
They are built for the Brand New Model F (F62 and F77 - all layouts). Everyone who wants to test the easy to use VIA App to assign the key layout - you can download the latest versions from here:
https://www.bucklingspring.com/via-firmware-and-layout/
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Xcore

17 Mar 2021, 13:14

On the Homepage it is written: "3/31/21 please have your orders in by then!". What does that mean? What happens if we don't?

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Bjerrk

17 Mar 2021, 13:33

Xcore wrote:
17 Mar 2021, 13:14
On the Homepage it is written: "3/31/21 please have your orders in by then!". What does that mean? What happens if we don't?
Just DO IT :twisted:

No, but seriously, I've wondered that as well. I notice that the date is pushed at a rate of about 1 month per month :D

With that said, I'm glad the sense of urgency got the better of me a few months back. It is a damn fine keyboard.

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Muirium
µ

17 Mar 2021, 13:43

Ah, the all too familiar "rolling deadline." Beloved of any sufficiently advanced group buy. 7bit is the master of that innovation. He's due his coveted Ping award someday… if it doesn't keep on moving out into infinity, like the universe itself.

Xcore

17 Mar 2021, 13:45

I did 😅, but was thinking about ordering another one, before it's too late, because…?! 😃
Does anyone have the F77 with black case and black keys? I would love to look at it.

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depletedvespene

17 Mar 2021, 13:50

Xcore wrote:
17 Mar 2021, 13:45
I did 😅, but was thinking about ordering another one, before it's too late, because…?! 😃
Does anyone have the F77 with black case and black keys? I would love to look at it.
Not yet... (black keys are all I'm missing, though)

ytirohtksek

17 Mar 2021, 15:25

Ellipse, I think it's time you address that rolling deadline. The practice reads as a bit shady to me.

Prospective customers should be better informed on two points:

1) There is no official deadline

2) Shipping times are long and can not be determined. On this point, and please correct me if I am wrong, but if someone were to order a keyboard now, it would be at least 2022 before it is delivered. That fact is not transparent on the website as it stands.

Ellipse

17 Mar 2021, 16:27

Dye sublimation update: the next group of keys has just arrived this morning! Haven't had a chance to open up the boxes just yet.

Xcore please feel free to check this album of all the variations that have been photographed so far. https://imgur.com/a/gw8FOl0

Black classic case and black keys photos: F62 https://imgur.com/9cVgwcP https://imgur.com/p7W0mec https://imgur.com/TNvSJ4K

I don't have any F77 black classic case and black keys photos just yet.

I want to thank pandrew and darkcruix for their great work on QMK and Via for the Model F! I was surprised that Model F QMK compatibility could be added so quickly to Via. I have tested out Via and so far it is working well and it is pretty easy even for me to use!

Right now the pandrew utility is not yet up and running with the Via firmware but other than that I believe everything else is working.

Regarding the project timeline, yes the project has been delayed and the timeline has been pushed for many reasons as described on the project web site blog. Over 800 new Model F keyboards have shipped so far and I hope to get the remaining keyboards out later this year, over the coming months. Sorry I can't predict the timeline with any more granularity.

As I've noted before in discussions of the timelines and deadlines, the priority of this project is an exact reproduction of the IBM level of quality of Model F keyboards, even at the expense of delaying the timeline and not enforcing the timeline. I could have chosen not to extend the timeline and accept the lower quality parts or not pursue the XT quality keycaps but I have chosen to stay with the original standards of the project. Now that the factory has achieved these standards I can say it has been well worth the wait, and well worth the continued wait this year as I am now the bottleneck and have enough keycaps to last well past when the next batch of sublimated keys is expected to arrive in the coming weeks.

Xcore

17 Mar 2021, 16:58

Thanks, Ellipse, for the pointers! I had looked at the other models before already and found them to be extremely beautiful. This made me decide on a black F77 in the first place. Now that I've ordered, I can't wait, to see it.🙂 I'll continue to look at the album, maybe at one point I'll spot mine 🙂

From my point of view, I'd rather have a great product than have a shorter wait.

So my original question is basically: If I ever wanted another one (e.g. a beige one), would I need to buy it before the deadline on the website or could I buy one after the first one arrived some day in the coming month?

Ellipse

17 Mar 2021, 17:44

Xcore thanks for joining the project! We're still in the early round, some time away from the final round planned at some point later this year, so there is still time to pick up extras later this year in the final round. My intention is to mail out all the orders well before the end of the final round so that people have a chance to pick up any additional items.

Xcore

17 Mar 2021, 17:56

Excellent, thank you.

Ellipse

18 Mar 2021, 01:38

IBM Key legends and key descriptions

I have tallied the extra keys and submitted these keys to the factory, along with the finalized legend designs from forum member Zed. During this process I came across some old files describing some of the IBM Key legends and key descriptions for the key functions on their keyboards - hope it might be of interest. I had no idea what many of these keys actually did on the old terminals!

Copied below are pages from the IBM 3179 (F122 keyboard)
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IBM 3270 Operations Guide 1972, pages 31-47 - see this link for details of the following keys and more
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ ... _Jul72.pdf
|← Back Tab
CLEAR
ERASE INPUT
ERASE EOF (End of Field)
TEST REQ
RESET
DUP
FIELD MARK
PA1 and PA2
INS MODE
DEL
PF1-PF12
NUMERIC (Shift)
ALPHA


IBM 3270 Oct 1988 revision (incl Unsaver 3290 Keyboard), starting with page 5-3 - see this link for details of the following keys and more
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ ... _Oct88.pdf
"General Controls" (Left side of keyboard)
Attention key
Copy key
Cursor Select key
Doc On/Off
Enlarge
Erasing controls-Clear, Erase Input, and Erase to End of Field keys
Extended Select Shift
Print key
Record and Play keys
Rule key
Setup Mode
System Request key
Work Station Control Mode
o<->O Zoom

Screen Management, Program Access, and Editing Controls
Note: The following functions are not available on all keyboards.
Backspace erase
Change Screen key
Cursor Home key
Delete Word key
Double-Speed Cursor, Left and Right keys
Duplicate key
Field Mark key
Insert and Delete keys
Jump Partition (3290)
Jump Screen
Left and Right Cursor keys
Next Word key
Previous Word key
Program Access keys (PA1, PA2, PA3)
Selectable Field Tab key
Up and Down Cursor keys
3174 Entry Assist

Program Function and Attribute Selection Controls
Note: The following functions are not available on all keyboards.
Attribute Select keys
Cursor Appearance keys, Alternate Cursor and Cursor Blink
Graphic Cursor ( + Cr) keys
Program Function keys, PF1 through PF24

IBM 3179 (one terminal used with F122 keyboards), page 6 onwards
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/3179/GA18- ... _Sep84.pdf
(relevant pages are copied above)
Last edited by Ellipse on 18 Mar 2021, 02:20, edited 1 time in total.

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depletedvespene

18 Mar 2021, 02:11

Quick note: the first PDF you linked to is producing a 404 — the correct link seems to be http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ ... _Jul72.pdf

Ellipse

18 Mar 2021, 02:20

fixed, thanks

User avatar
darkcruix

18 Mar 2021, 11:57

Ellipse wrote:
17 Mar 2021, 16:27
I want to thank pandrew and darkcruix for their great work on QMK and Via for the Model F! I was surprised that Model F QMK compatibility could be added so quickly to Via. I have tested out Via and so far it is working well and it is pretty easy even for me to use!

Right now the pandrew utility is not yet up and running with the Via firmware but other than that I believe everything else is working.
I want to give an additional info that was written up by GH user dc_in_sf"
There are some important things to know about VIA and the F77

There are two main ways with stock VIA to get it to ignore a key map stored in EEPROM
1. Use Bootmagic lite to reset the keyboard, VIA enabled firmware will then ignore the currently stored keymap
2. flash the KB with a version of VIA firmware that was compiled on a different day (VIA compares the FW date with a value stored in EEPROM)

The issue with the F77 is that you can't use bootmagic because the keyboard calibration routine that runs on powerup will mean that a held key is not detected when the control gets to the bootmagic routine.

So if you are using VIA on the F77, and the keymap becomes corrupt in some way (and e.g. causes the FW to crash), then your recovery choice is to compile a new version of VIA and flash it in yourself. Flashing in a regular QMK build *will not* clear the EEPROM, when you go back to your VIA FW the same key map will still be there. Non QMK FW may or may not fix it depending on whether it actually changes the EEPROM.

pandrew has a utility that in theory can clear the EEPROM, but it uses the same communication channel as VIA, so to use it will likely have to flash in a non VIA FW to make it work.

It is unknown how much of problem not being able to clear the EEPROM is. I have had no issues with any of my VIA enabled keyboards to date, so possibly this is a non issue, but the VIA folk thought it was important enough to enforce Bootmagic lite in VIA builds.

My take, use it, by just be warned you may have to muck around a bit more to recover a messed up keymap :-)

I have added a eeprom_eraser.hex in the latest version on www.bucklingspring.com which will take care of the issue with by completely filling the flash chip with zeros. It is also described in the doc I have added to the zip.
I am using a unconventional firmware on my system and had issues with some keys being properly recognized, but the eraser beautifully solved the issue. I was still able to hit Fn+Space+R, otherwise I would have needed to short the program jumper on the controller.
So, there is a slight risk with someone having a broken key mapping to require extra legwork to re-flash it.

Ellipse

18 Mar 2021, 22:30

On GH darkcruix noted a great way to turn on and off the solenoid with keyboard key presses:
Will it be possible to turn a solenoid off and on through VIA, or is that functionality not possible through the software?

I have it set-up and it is working. You just need to choose "Any" and then type e.g. HPT_TOG or any of the other QMK options:


| Name | Description |
|-----------|-------------------------------------------------------|
|`HPT_ON` | Turn haptic feedback on |
|`HPT_OFF` | Turn haptic feedback on |
|`HPT_TOG` | Toggle haptic feedback on/off |
|`HPT_RST` | Reset haptic feedback config to default |
|`HPT_FBK` | Toggle feedback to occur on keypress, release or both |
|`HPT_BUZ` | Toggle solenoid buzz on/off |
|`HPT_MODI` | Go to next DRV2605L waveform |
|`HPT_MODD` | Go to previous DRV2605L waveform |
|`HPT_CONT` | Toggle continuous haptic mode on/off |
|`HPT_CONI` | Increase DRV2605L continous haptic strength |
|`HPT_COND` | Decrease DRV2605L continous haptic strength |
|`HPT_DWLI` | Increase Solenoid dwell time |
|`HPT_DWLD` | Decrease Solenoid dwell time |
My note:
I tried this on the pandrew QMK configurator but with the HPT_BUZ and the solenoid toggle worked. The solenoid was by default set on.

Also the solenoid was activated even with pressing the Fn keys - I thought pressing the modifier keys and Fn keys are not supposed to activate the solenoid?

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darkcruix

19 Mar 2021, 19:12

Ellipse wrote:
18 Mar 2021, 22:30
On GH darkcruix noted a great way to turn on and off the solenoid with keyboard key presses:
Will it be possible to turn a solenoid off and on through VIA, or is that functionality not possible through the software?

I have it set-up and it is working. You just need to choose "Any" and then type e.g. HPT_TOG or any of the other QMK options:


| Name | Description |
|-----------|-------------------------------------------------------|
|`HPT_ON` | Turn haptic feedback on |
|`HPT_OFF` | Turn haptic feedback on |
|`HPT_TOG` | Toggle haptic feedback on/off |
|`HPT_RST` | Reset haptic feedback config to default |
|`HPT_FBK` | Toggle feedback to occur on keypress, release or both |
|`HPT_BUZ` | Toggle solenoid buzz on/off |
|`HPT_MODI` | Go to next DRV2605L waveform |
|`HPT_MODD` | Go to previous DRV2605L waveform |
|`HPT_CONT` | Toggle continuous haptic mode on/off |
|`HPT_CONI` | Increase DRV2605L continous haptic strength |
|`HPT_COND` | Decrease DRV2605L continous haptic strength |
|`HPT_DWLI` | Increase Solenoid dwell time |
|`HPT_DWLD` | Decrease Solenoid dwell time |
My note:
I tried this on the pandrew QMK configurator but with the HPT_BUZ and the solenoid toggle worked. The solenoid was by default set on.

Also the solenoid was activated even with pressing the Fn keys - I thought pressing the modifier keys and Fn keys are not supposed to activate the solenoid?
This is correct and I experienced the same issue. I have created a patch to exclude these keys in the source code of QMK, but need @pandrew to review it.

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