Phantom Custom Keyboard Group Buy (CLOSED)

[litster]

Thanks webwit.

I found it too thick. So that fancy Phantom text layer had to go. I tis about 4mm shorter now, and it is resting on 4mm shorter. Will post new pictures soon.

[Gilgam]

Hi, I'm new to the boards - I found it while looking for IBM Model M keyboards for sale (still looking for a ISO/UK layout). From what I gather in the posts here and on geekhack - the phantom was designed to create a replacement board for the felco so that cherry switches can be used throughout so you can use doubleshot injection molded keycaps?

It looks like now you've got all the parts to throw together a complete keyboard - or are you still harvesting parts from other complete keyboards?

I currently have no mechanical keyboard - but I grew up using a IBM model M, so have no parts.
I guess what I'm asking is - is it feasible for me to get involved in this and source all the parts required to make my own keyboard - with my choice (or design) of key cap, switch, layout and case while maintaining a reasonable price?

Sorry if any of my questions are misinformed - I'm very new to mechanical keyboards and I can't believe I've found people with the same fanaticism with user input devices as me - I've been reading the forum for two days straight (don't tell my boss).

You guys are great - I'm really glad I found this place.

Maybe should you test cherry mx switches before buying such a keyboard. Just to be sure you'll love them, and to find out your best switch (test each at least two weeks, first feeling is not often accurate).

And about the price, it won't be reasonable, but that depends on people. I believe spending 400€ on a custom made, all-life-span, daily used, keyboard is not so expensive, while spending more than 15000€ for a 5 years car is not.

But this is MY point of view, not the rule (and hopefully ).

Welcome To Deskthority !!
feel free to ask questions (there is no stupid question

[mrog]

I absolutely concur regarding the costs, however my wife is not always of the same sentiment - so I do have to be careful somewhat with how much I spend.

For starters I *need* a model M, the nostalgia I get from seeing pictures of the Model M brings back so many memories.

But the Model M aside - building my own customized keyboard which will last me for life? That's an opportunity I just can't miss!

Unfortunately though I just don't have access to different keyboards, I don't think shops stock decent keyboards and I don't know anybody who owns any. I think I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and get a keyboard - and if I really don't like it - I guess I can sell it.

Anyway this is awesome! I'll watch this thread and try and get involved once the case design/price has been worked out.

[litster]

mrog, welcome to the forum. As little as we know about you, since you are new, I would recommend you *not* to join this group buy. There were other new members interested in this, but I also told them not to join because this project requires a lot of patient, skills, and money. As far as value, it is certainly not worth it. I think most of us do this for the sake of just the ability to build a keyboard from scratch. This should not be a your first or second mechanical keyboard. It is certainly not the best candidate to be a keyboard to last a life time. With that kind of expectation, you will only be disappointed.

I recommend getting your Model M first, then get a Filco or Realforce, try a bunch of different switches, before you join into a group buy like this one.

If you are still interested, We on the forum will give you a hand.

[Gilgam]

@lister
Hello. do you really think it'll be less reliable than a 1990 cherry board ? I mean pcb and switches are at worst the same quality ?

@mrog
On the other hand you do whatever you want. I agree that it'll be overkill for a first mechanical keyboard. But why not ?

There are many model m to sell on the marketplace, and if you don't find the right layout you can buy one set of new keycaps from Unicomp...

[litster]

@lister
Hello. do you really think it'll be less reliable than a 1990 cherry board ? I mean pcb and switches are at worst the same quality ?

Mechanically, of course it will last a long time. But this keyboard also has custom firmware that you need to load onto the Teensy controller. It is not "Ready to Run". It requires you solder all the parts together and put it into a case. The whole thing is a DIY project. The more steps you need to do to put something together, the higher the chance you will screw something up and have to fix it yourself. Most senior members here will know what to do. But not for noobs. You buy it, you own it. You break it, you fix it. You can't take it back to Amazon. And it is totally not cheap. You could buy 1.5 to 2 Filcos for the money you will spend on the Phantom.

[Findecanor]

What we keyboard fanatics get with the Phantom is the ability to customize it: reprogram the controller, change between different types of switches, several options for physical layout, etc.
If you don't need/want this, then this keyboard is not for you. It truly is an enthusiast keyboard.

Personally, I have planned to attempt a layout that is not even among one of the official options, and also to build my own case.

[fireglow]

What's the status on a source for stabilizers?

Will a Filco ZERO case work too?

[litster]

For stabilizers, we can either order from mouser, a vendor on taobao, or WASDkeyboards. WASDKeyboards looks very promising, as he will have all parts that make up of a stabilizer set.What is missing is the 7x wide stabilizer for 1.5x modifier setup. Potentially we can get just regular stabilizers and buyers will have to bend their own metal wire for it.

If you have a Filco Zero, open it up, take some pictures, and post them here so we can take a look.

[mrog]

@lister
Thanks for the advice, you are probably mostly correct. There is so much to know about keyboards that I'm probably not quite ready for this. As for the skills to make and maintain the board - I do not think that will be a problem, I'm good with a soldering iron, though I'm not usually involved with the electronics side of life, I have fixed a few tv's and such in the past.

As for programming the controller board - This is one of the parts that i'm most looking forward to I'll more than likely write my own software, as I've got plenty of experience and skill in this area.

Cost *is* my main concern - currently trying to save for a mortgage and I'll get in trouble with the wife If i'm seen wasting money.

Fortunately she's quite level headed, and I think she wouldn't see the money spend on a home made keyboard as wasted presuming i'm successful.

Anyway I'll wait to see the end costs involved (was a price for the case determined yet?) and probably get involved in the next group buy, while watching this one diligently.

[litster]

I might have solved the thickness problem. If you can't make a slope, make steps instead. This case is going to be junked and I will have to make a new one. This one has so many test holes in it, but it is a worthy prototype.

Acrylic Case v0.2-1.JPG (363.6 KiB) Viewed 5529 times

Acrylic Case v0.2-2 - Copy.JPG (73.03 KiB) Viewed 5529 times

[Findecanor]

For those (like me) who are thinking of making wooden case: check out nanu's minimal case on geekhack for some inspiration.
I had almost forgotten about that one before, sorry.

[trax]

For those (like me) who are thinking of making wooden case: check out nanu's minimal case on geekhack for some inspiration.
I had almost forgotten about that one before, sorry.

We have to make the case ourselves?

[Findecanor]

I expect litsters case prototype to develop into a group order. Others will reuse the case from a Filco (which was the original idea), and yet others (like me) will build their own because they like building stuff and would like something different.

There has also been talk about a case made of aluminum, but I don't know if that project has got off the ground.

[trax]

I expect litsters case prototype to develop into a group order. Others will reuse the case from a Filco (which was the original idea), and yet others (like me) will build their own because they like building stuff and would like something different.

There has also been talk about a case made of aluminum, but I don't know if that project has got off the ground.

I like making things, software wise.
I'm so unhandy
I'm just gonna pay someone to build it all for me...

Not sure whom though...

[Gilgam]

I have a Metal cutting industry just near my home (laser cutting and more) they told me they can work with an image but has someone a cad file or anything usable to get some pricing info ?

Thanks

[litster]

try with this:

Total: 6 layers
4 layers at 14.5 inches by 5.5 inches
- thickness: 2x 1/8 inches, 2x 1/4 inches
2 layers at 14.5 inches by 2 inches
- thickness: 1x 1/4 inches, 1x 1/8 inches
gluing required
laser time: about 30 minutes for all 6 layers

This laser time is from the wimper 100-watt laser cutter I use. Commercial laser cutters should be able to do it in half the time.

I hate inches and fractions...

[Gilgam]

Thanks

For inches so do i, don't you have the mesures in civilised way (i mean mm )

i'll convert the thing and then go and see them, when i can (this is the trickiest part )

they do steel, stainless steel, aluminium and alloys, titanium (is that one so nice ? ) and even 3D CNC.

Edit
so i did it
4 layers at 14.5 inches by 5.5 inches
368.3 mm by 139.7 mm
- thickness: 2x 1/8 inches, 2x 1/4 inches
2x 3.175 mm 2x 6.35 mm
2 layers at 14.5 inches by 2 inches
368.3 mm by 50.8 mm
- thickness: 1x 1/4 inches, 1x 1/8 inches
1x 6.35 mm 1x 3.175 mm

I don't know anything in machine cutting but does the price depends of the design ?

[litster]

yes, basically material plus laser time. for example, I removed the Phantom text from the bottom because it would incur too much cost just for the that.

[trax]

What did you take as material?
Does it even change in sound or feel at all?

[litster]

most lasercutters can't cut metal, especially wimpy ones. So far I have used only acrylic. I want to try wood later. Don't know how thick it can cut though.

[Gilgam]

Hello again

so i went to ATS. It was quite funny as they didn't really take me seriously but i managed to get the things done

I need material (they don't do acrylic though)
i said stainless steel but they can brush it, and they even cut copper and alloys )

They need the general design and only cut infra mm sizes for aeronautic purposes (reactors and so on).

So lister can i arrange the sizes you gave me ?
layers at 14.5 inches by 5.5 inches
368 mm by 140 mm
- thickness: 2x 1/8 inches, 2x 1/4 inches
2x 3 mm 2x 6 mm
2 layers at 14.5 inches by 2 inches
368 mm by 51 mm
- thickness: 1x 1/4 inches, 1x 1/8 inches
1x 6 mm 1x 3 mm

i just have to get the overall design, i have seen the pictures on a geekhack post if i remember correctly.
with the holes for screws.
They needed a SIret (a proof you have a company).

I fear this won't be cheap but who knows ?
(i dream of a multi metal layer with a copper or a brass one on top )


Edit
the guy told that 100 W laser doesn't cut anything, it must have been a 1000W...

[litster]

100W laser may not cut metal, but it cuts acrylic just fine.

Go ahead to see what quotes you get.

[litster]

First test plate is in. Notice I use a Cherry off-center capslock. I don't have any plate-mount stabilizer. I may need to butcher a Wyse keyboard to get a couple of plate-mounted Cherry stabilizers. To late tonight (this morning?). I will put it inside my acrylic case or a Filco case tomorrow.

Phantom Plate-1.jpg (171.01 KiB) Viewed 5333 times

Phantom Plate-2.jpg (133.92 KiB) Viewed 5333 times

[Gilgam]

100W - 1000 W whatever as long as it cuts

I've found the cad designs (page 31 GH thread). Did you add some holes at the bottom for the feet ?

i'm sending the email for the invoice this afternoon.
but it's weekend time

[Tarkoon]

I have a company cutting acrylics just around the corner and they would take 20-25€ per layer (incl. the material) and 25€ per setting up the laser what is needed every time you insert a new thickness of material. At the end you have to add 19% german MwSt.

[Half-Saint]

That's 60€ per layer times how many layers? I'm sorry but that's just insane

[Tarkoon]

No, you think wrong.
If two different material thicknesses are used and they cut for example 10 cases, its only two times the 25€ for all cases together. That would be 5€ per case + 20-25€ per layer per keyboard.
They put a 15mm thick plate 2m x 3m in the laser and adjust it - that costs the 25€ - whatever they cut out of it.

[Gilgam]

it's really cheap ...

[litster]

Those screen shots were old. I will have to make newer ones. I also removed the Phantom text because that increases laser time. The new design has 6 layers, and requires gluing. I also have a shop close to me that could to this. I am just waiting until I have a release-candidate design before I move forward with a shop.

In any case (no pun intended ), I think I will wait for a little bit before continuing. It is close to the holidays and I won't be around as much. I am on vacation for the rest of the year start now . The case design now is based on Filco. With Phantom, the top layer will change. I think it is better to finalize the design using the actually Phantom design, and not make it compatible with Filco. Doing so I will have to make compromises. I can always make a couple of small changes and cut for Filco, if people want a Filco acrylic case.

Although the case design seems to work, we need more testing. For example, make sure the typing feel is solid, not wobbly, the keyboard innards doesn't move around inside the case, or the case is actually not too flexible and is supportive of the PCB and the plate. All the things people complain about Filco/Ducky/Leopold etc, will apply to my case. To ensure the case design actually works well, I will need to make a couple extra prototypes and need volunteers to test it for me, in DIY constuction of the case and usage testing. Haven't figured out how to do it yet because it is expensive and time consuming to make 2 one-off cases.

I don't think it is a good idea to wait for the case. We need to close out the group buy with the plates, PCBs, switches, stabilizers, diodes and such. We can get everything done put together, modify the firmware, and then deal with the case later.

This is going to be a year-long project. Exciting!