More WhiteFox (less Massdrop)

Sankart

24 Jun 2017, 14:59

That means, having full control over the manufacturing process, which was crucial to me.
Does that mean that you changed the manufacturer of the plate/case?
I never had a Whitefox, but I built one for a friend and QC was just abysmal and it didn't look any better on the pictures of other buyers (the example pics were always perfect though).
- The switch cutouts were inaccurate and too large, causing the supplied plate mounted switches to wobble noticeably more than on other keyboards (with openable switch cutouts).
- The plates were too small for the housings, causing very noticeable gaps between the plate and the housing.
- The edges of the plate tended to be warped just a little bit, but it looked really goofy
- One of the screws wouldn't even connect because thread was halfway under the PCB.
- The CNC machining on the case was very noticeable through the anodizing.
- Also the case had some scratches and had a noticeable fraction on the inside (he got it replaced due to this issue)

Now I know the Whitefox is relatively cheap, but the really badly fitting plate would be enough for me to never use the keyboard and I'm very happy I didn't buy into the hype during the first drop. It sure has potential and I might get into this groupbuy, but only if these issues have been tackled.

If you're shipping from the US, is it possible to help out EU-buyers a little with customs?

I probably sound all negative again and I'm sorry for that. I appreciate all the time and work you put into this community a lot, but I've been burned by too many groupbuys already. When it sounds too good to be true it usually is and looking at the price point of the Whitefox, I fear for the same issues as in round 1, which would be a shame imo.

Edit:
Also why is there no option for just one unassembled Whitefox with switches included? I can only order 2 unassembled kits, or no switches at all. Being picky about switch housings (for example I hate Gateron housings due to the metallic sound they make) I'd like to test the halo switches before soldering them in.

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

24 Jun 2017, 19:52

we changed manufacturer. the reason why I always wanted to change (and go w/o massdrop) is to get QC under control. This time everything should be on spot.

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TuxKey
LLAP

24 Jun 2017, 20:38

i feel you guys.. i joined the K-type board knowing i will get screwed with customs !! having to pay an aditional $75 just got the board..Feels like living in a dictatorship join or don't but there is no third option..

i do like that matt3o is trying and willing to look at the matter..Massdrop doesnt seem to care. i keep mailing them about this. And i'm not going to give up any time soon. i suggest you guys do the same.. hound them until they see the light that there are people living in Europe to that give a ch....t about keyboards ...

BTW free WhiteFox giveAway..http://woobox.com/3avto4/j2kjrf

Not Vanilla Layout but still a beauty .. i wouldn't mind winning one, and who knows in a yr buying a Vanilla layout from EU store...@matt3o don't forget to let us know when the eu store becomes an option..love to spread the word.

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TuxKey
LLAP

24 Jun 2017, 21:28

matt3o wrote: the demand is less than you'd think
Just wanted to mention that i think your statement is only partially right.
One of the reasons why EU demand is so low is that not all people are willing to pay the extra $75 to $80 customs to get a board.
i convinced a couple of Dutch friends to appreciate the effort you and input club put in to your builds and that they are worth more than an average gamers keyboard (you know the brands)..

But all of them don't want to spend the extra cash to be eligible to get that dream board.
i feel the same for the most part. But i also think life is to short to deny myself one board in a while..
But even i can't justify paying $200 on customs .. i'm currently just a student so i have to be careful..And my mortgage won't wait hahahah

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hansichen

24 Jun 2017, 22:27

Even if you would ship these board from Europe you would have ~20% fees, at least 5-10$ extra handling fees and shipping within Europe. Especially in countries like Germany where you have no service fee when having to pay import taxes a EU proxy could make boards even more expensive. And you would mainly save the drive to the customs office and not too much money.

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chuckdee

25 Jun 2017, 00:04

TuxKey wrote:
matt3o wrote: the demand is less than you'd think
Just wanted to mention that i think your statement is only partially right.
One of the reasons why EU demand is so low is that not all people are willing to pay the extra $75 to $80 customs to get a board.
i convinced a couple of Dutch friends to appreciate the effort you and input club put in to your builds and that they are worth more than an average gamers keyboard (you know the brands)..

But all of them don't want to spend the extra cash to be eligible to get that dream board.
i feel the same for the most part. But i also think life is to short to deny myself one board in a while..
But even i can't justify paying $200 on customs .. i'm currently just a student so i have to be careful..And my mortgage won't wait hahahah
But when people do make it possible, but just not under the circumstances that people want, i.e. distribution in their own country, they blame the company that made it possible for the extra fees and such, like they have to pay it. It's a catch-22 that I don't think that there is a good solution for. (See Massdrop and the arguments against it) So there's no good way, especially without a massive increase in the complexities of the logistics and the monetary investment to satisfy everyone.

I'm glad that I:C is taking the steps to having complete control of the logistical chain, from design to delivery, and hopefully it will result in increased cash flow for them, to allow funding new designs. I like Massdrop, and think that they provide a valuable service, but facts are, they are a company and have competing priorities between serving the community and making a product. With I:C having complete control, that conflict doesn't exist.

But that said, I don't think that it's fair to vilify Massdrop as has been done in this thread. After all, they could have been even more dickish in this. I'm sure no one wanted to see this in court for years longer. They could have done this, especially as they have more leverage and resources than the other parties. But it should say something that they didn't. They moved on other ventures (at this point the new clueboard) rather than trying to exert force to get things to stay their way. But no one seems to give credit in this.

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TuxKey
LLAP

25 Jun 2017, 00:51

Let's keep it real your absolutely right in stating Massdrop is a company and on that now one can fault them or blame them. Sure they serve a goal but only as far as its suits them and so it should be. At least that's the way to world currently works the world we made for our selfs. As a citizen of the Netherlands I know there are more ways to avoid having to pay custom fees or luxury taxes on goods then there are switches in the world. Only problem is those ways are not met for us little people but companies. And Massdrop falls under this category. Only problem is they need to invest time and thus effort and money to make this happen. Don't tell me it isn't possible I have worked in the financial system for 10+yr as an it nurd and have seen my share of companies doing this.
But I guess it all boils down to one thing we the consumer accept this or don't how do we vote ?? Yes with our wallets. And on that matter I'm supporting Massdrop one the one thing they care about $$$ but yes there is a but. I could buy more if I wasn't paying 33% on top of the price including shipping yes the total price over which I pay customs is with shipping just because they can. Do I think I can complain about it to Massdrop Absolutely in fact it's a must if there is ever any hope of change.
So stop taking it personally because Massdrop doesn't see it personally it's all about the $$ for them and that's the nature of the beast


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chuckdee

25 Jun 2017, 03:33

TuxKey wrote:Let's keep it real your absolutely right in stating Massdrop is a company and on that now one can fault them or blame them. Sure they serve a goal but only as far as its suits them and so it should be. At least that's the way to world currently works the world we made for our selfs. As a citizen of the Netherlands I know there are more ways to avoid having to pay custom fees or luxury taxes on goods then there are switches in the world. Only problem is those ways are not met for us little people but companies. And Massdrop falls under this category. Only problem is they need to invest time and thus effort and money to make this happen. Don't tell me it isn't possible I have worked in the financial system for 10+yr as an it nurd and have seen my share of companies doing this.
But I guess it all boils down to one thing we the consumer accept this or don't how do we vote ?? Yes with our wallets. And on that matter I'm supporting Massdrop one the one thing they care about $$$ but yes there is a but. I could buy more if I wasn't paying 33% on top of the price including shipping yes the total price over which I pay customs is with shipping just because they can. Do I think I can complain about it to Massdrop Absolutely in fact it's a must if there is ever any hope of change.
So stop taking it personally because Massdrop doesn't see it personally it's all about the $$ for them and that's the nature of the beast


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I'm not taking it personally ; I don't know where that came from. I just think that Massdrop takes a lion's share of the blame in anything that happens that's wrong, but none of the credit with things that they do right. And they are a business, but from my dealings with many of them, they are just as enthusiastic and invested in the success of their niches as we are- its not just a business, though in the end it is a business and they have to toe that line very carefully.

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

25 Jun 2017, 08:29

It's just a matter of priorities. I:C and I are enthusiasts first, entrepreneurs last. We love what we do and we love our product. Massdrop have different dynamics. I'm not putting the blame on anyone. They have employees, deadlines, investors. I personally would do it for free. Money, Quality, Time. You can only have two.
hansichen wrote: Even if you would ship these board from Europe you would have ~20% fees, at least 5-10$ extra handling fees and shipping within Europe. Especially in countries like Germany where you have no service fee when having to pay import taxes a EU proxy could make boards even more expensive. And you would mainly save the drive to the customs office and not too much money.
unfortunately this is very true

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XMIT
[ XMIT ]

25 Jun 2017, 18:55

matt3o wrote: Money, Quality, Time. You can only have two.
Yeah, and that's at most. Sometimes with my projects I feel like I have none! With my boards I can promise you I don't have the last one, and I'm hoping we achieve the second one. The first one, well, as long as we can keep the prototypes moving along, we're good.

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chuckdee

25 Jun 2017, 19:49

matt3o wrote: It's just a matter of priorities. I:C and I are enthusiasts first, entrepreneurs last. We love what we do and we love our product. Massdrop have different dynamics. I'm not putting the blame on anyone. They have employees, deadlines, investors. I personally would do it for free. Money, Quality, Time. You can only have two.
Well stated, and to be clear, I wasn't talking about you or I:C. But without inside knowledge, it's hard for others to know what you've gone through, or the ups and downs of the relationship. And enthusiasts can be very unforgiving in any niche hobby.

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Elrick

26 Jun 2017, 04:38

chuckdee wrote:
matt3o wrote: But without inside knowledge, it's hard for others to know what you've gone through, or the ups and downs of the relationship. And enthusiasts can be very unforgiving in any niche hobby.
I've been through a lot of Group Buys over the years, whether it be for hundreds of key-caps in every profiles known or keyboards built from scratch and I am NOT an enthusiast by any means.

I do understand the pitfalls of making a keyboard from the beginning and suffering from others who fail to live up to quality expectations. In the end have always allowed the Group Buy organizer a huge amount of time as long as they consistently provide updates along the way.

No matter the risk and misery that befalls anyone who makes keyboards, it always makes the final product far more worthy and precious, due to all those agonizing hazards that were traversed and accomplished.

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Jmneuv

26 Jun 2017, 19:09

Madness! what went down in the keyboard world during my little hiatus. Such beauty and insanity.

Reading through this thread i came to the conclusion that i will indeed be waiting for the EU-round. Hate those backstabbing kind of fees late in the checkout process or at the customs office. As usual it's all about the patience game. At which point of a regular consumer purchase do NAmericans pay VAT anyway? Is it already factored into the price, thus i'd be paying vat effectively twice?

Back on topic of the WF itself:
One issue has been bugging me about the board: the LED-control. Basically right now it's just backlit; however leds appear to be controllable. What i'm missing are basic led-assignments like, say: caps-lock, numlock, layers. I've seen the thread about using tmk for that, but it was only at a demonstration stage. Anything on the horizon there with the official firmware? IC is releasing the k-type with individual led control.. shouldn't that backwards benefit the whitefox?

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chuckdee

26 Jun 2017, 19:39

Jmneuv wrote:Madness! what went down in the keyboard world during my little hiatus. Such beauty and insanity.

Reading through this thread i came to the conclusion that i will indeed be waiting for the EU-round. Hate those backstabbing kind of fees late in the checkout process or at the customs office. As usual it's all about the patience game. At which point of a regular consumer purchase do NAmericans pay VAT anyway? Is it already factored into the price, thus i'd be paying vat effectively twice?

Back on topic of the WF itself:
One issue has been bugging me about the board: the LED-control. Basically right now it's just backlit; however leds appear to be controllable. What i'm missing are basic led-assignments like, say: caps-lock, numlock, layers. I've seen the thread about using tmk for that, but it was only at a demonstration stage. Anything on the horizon there with the official firmware? IC is releasing the k-type with individual led control.. shouldn't that backwards benefit the whitefox?
North Americans don't pay VAT, and the equivalent is Sales Tax, and but Kickstarter doesn't charge sales tax on their pledges. The creator has to pay taxes on the revenue, but you won't have any part in that.

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macclack

27 Jun 2017, 06:50

I'm in! Really awesome KB Matt3o. Thanks for doing this.

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

27 Jun 2017, 13:17

Jmneuv wrote: Anything on the horizon there with the official firmware? IC is releasing the k-type with individual led control.. shouldn't that backwards benefit the whitefox?
Yes! That should also help with the WF!

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TuxKey
LLAP

27 Jun 2017, 17:38

Jmneuv wrote: Reading through this thread i came to the conclusion that i will indeed be waiting for the EU-round. Hate those backstabbing kind of fees late in the checkout process or at the customs office. As usual it's all about the patience game.
i wish i had the same amount of patience, i have bin waiting on the k-type with all its benefits for years now.
type-c, hotswap switches, fully programmable incl lighting, solid build.

Waiting for the K-type and perhaps a whitefox with sum of the improvements of the k-type to get to the EU would take years and years i'm afraid.

i do have to say except for perhaps a second keycap set that is affordable for the k-type. i won't be buying anything for a long long time if it's not shipped from inside the EU.

Other folks not living in the EU have it easy discussing why this or that is fair and just how things are. At the end of the day it doesn't matter. End result is that i can't spend my hard earned euro twice.
To give you an example

This is what i paid for my FC660M with mx-clears (as far as my notes goes perhaps it's even more)

€118,34 + 30% (€35,40) = €153,40 (for the keyboard)
€38,51 + 30% ( €11,56) = €50 ( for the extra set dy-sub keycaps instead of the laser-eteched )

So without tax it would have paid around €156 but now i paid around €204 at that time that was $273 for a Non topre Leopold MAD..
if i was going to sell that board now how much do you think i could ask.. if i tell people "yes but i paid $273 for it"

Mykeyboard.eu is selling the FC660M with mx switches for €115 yep i paid almost €90 more for mine including the keycap drama.
Now i have one thing going for me mx-clears on the Leopold are all sold out and won't be made anytime soon according to Leopold reseller. So the value should increase. But still we EU folks always get the short end of the stick.
Everything in this world is priced according to what the market can tolerate / except. So if the item can't be sold inside the EU for acceptable prices than it won't be an option...

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TuxKey
LLAP

27 Jun 2017, 17:52

Just got an email that "The WhiteFox is now USB Type C"

impressive ...Vanilla layout, backlighting and EU reseller or EU help and i'm all in..

btw; i can give you @matt3o names and info on certain kickstart projects that have helped me and others with customs.
i won't do that online because i appreciate the people that have helped us to much..

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Wodan
ISO Advocate

27 Jun 2017, 17:55

USB C ... Finally a third cable on my desk. Can we now charge our keyboard with 10 amps?

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gogusrl

27 Jun 2017, 19:07

I agree, going USB type C at this point in time is useless and just adds to BOM not to mention the inconvenience of yet another cable type.

Anyway, my half year's resolution is to stop buying shit from the US when it goes EU (like GMK) / China -> US and back to EU.

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Phenix
-p

27 Jun 2017, 21:19

Is adding holtites aka hotswap a option now that USB C was added?
(imho it's more useful than C ATM)

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

28 Jun 2017, 08:29

Personally I find usb-c just a gimmick. but my idea is that if you are fine with micro-usb, you'll be happy with the usb-c as well. We had a spike in sales since we introduced it, so generally people seem happy about the change. Possibly in 3-4 years you'll have mostly usb-c cables and the whitefox should be a keyboard that lasts forever, so I guess it's all good.

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Wodan
ISO Advocate

28 Jun 2017, 08:44

matt3o wrote: ..Possibly in 3-4 years you'll have mostly usb-c cables ..
:geek: I heavily doubt that. Even the USB3.0 devices I have don't use USB-C yet ...

Still, I guess it's okay. if it helps sales ...

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hansichen

28 Jun 2017, 09:09

The USB CD hype is not understandable for me too. Today's cables are good enough and everybody already has cables for that, why would you want to buy new cables for no benefit. And many people like custom cables which are not or hardly available with USB C.
But there are always many people who request it, so it's probably a good idea if you want to reach as many people as possible.
TuxKey wrote:
Jmneuv wrote: €118,34 + 30% (€35,40) = €153,40 (for the keyboard)
€38,51 + 30% ( €11,56) = €50 ( for the extra set dy-sub keycaps instead of the laser-eteched )
As I've already said before: vendors which sell in the EU have to apply the country's taxes. I'm average, these should be around 20%. So if you would buy it with a EU proxy you would have the 120€+~5€ to cover extra handling costs +20% (25€) =150€, shipping fees may apply too or if calculated in the 120€ shouldn't be much smaller within EU countries. So you save <5€, sounds like it's worth it.

Shihatsu

28 Jun 2017, 09:45

I would either go with USB 3.1 USB-A male connector, or with USB-C. I have personal dislikes for mini-USB - those cables and connectors are just to unstable.

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Elrick

29 Jun 2017, 09:39

Shihatsu wrote: I would either go with USB 3.1 USB-A male connector, or with USB-C. I have personal dislikes for mini-USB - those cables and connectors are just to unstable.
Well they would be if you keep swinging it about still attached to the keyboard :lol: .

Would still prefer Mini-B simply because it's far more robust and sturdy and lasts forever, even for morons that like damaging connections for fun.

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TuxKey
LLAP

01 Jul 2017, 20:57

matt3o wrote: Personally I find usb-c just a gimmick. but my idea is that if you are fine with micro-usb, you'll be happy with the usb-c as well. We had a spike in sales since we introduced it, so generally people seem happy about the change. Possibly in 3-4 years you'll have mostly usb-c cables and the whitefox should be a keyboard that lasts forever, so I guess it's all good.

it's not a gimmick for sure. i tend to switch between keyboards and having to have an adapter so i don't stress out the usb port is trying and doesn't look as good
adapter i leave attached to each keyboard
adapter i leave attached to each keyboard
Screen Shot 2017-07-01 at 20.54.56.png (132.81 KiB) Viewed 2254 times
usb-c doesn't suffer from the same issues in regards to connector strength and number of discon/con.

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consolation

02 Jul 2017, 07:48

matt3o wrote: ...
Is there any chance of a *Fox that has Alps compatibility in the future? Even if offered without switches but a PCB/Plate that is both cherry and Alps compatible? Or, just a special Alps model?

Cherries are just such a compromise, it feels like all that effort in design and QC is limited because at the end of the day you have switches that are at best adequate... :?

PS. I know there's a huge hype for complicated Alps, but, Matias switches are very under rated and in many ways nicer than the complicates. They are lighter, more tactile, and in the unsilenced version, louder than complicates. They are an order of magnitude better than cherry types and readily available too; a MatFox might free some of our brothers and sisters from the evil clutches of the Cherry overlords.

PPS. SP has even started to offer Granite in Alps mount http://pimpmykeyboard.com/dsa-alps-matias-granite/, please tell me that's a sign!

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TuxKey
LLAP

02 Jul 2017, 22:26

i talked a lot about import fees an all that kind of crap..
did i mention that sellers on Ebay where i got my topre board are a real help in this regard.
let's just say i ended up paying a fraction of the import fees because well my topre board had a discount you see :lol:
it's called we love that your a keyboard enthousiast so let's just pretent this board has a 0 less in the price so it's $25.

you do the math on the rest.. f..ck the government it's all just an illusion anyway a most dangerous one at that.
i'm reading this book now and i totally agree...

DerpyDash_xAD

02 Jul 2017, 23:05

TuxKey wrote: i talked a lot about import fees an all that kind of crap..
did i mention that sellers on Ebay where i got my topre board are a real help in this regard.
let's just say i ended up paying a fraction of the import fees because well my topre board had a discount you see :lol:
it's called we love that your a keyboard enthousiast so let's just pretent this board has a 0 less in the price so it's $25.

you do the math on the rest.. f..ck the government it's all just an illusion anyway a most dangerous one at that.
i'm reading this book now and i totally agree...
not a fan of police, emergency services etc eh?

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