$15 of Omron switch (B2R-M or M1)

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Daniel Beardsmore

13 Jan 2017, 22:10

Every now and then you get a switch that just won't come apart. Omron B2R-G1 seems to come apart fairly well:

http://erwin1.blog64.fc2.com/blog-category-2.html

B2R-M (or M1, supposedly, but it says "M" on it), well, not so much. The reed module is a loose fit inside the switch, since it can be slid side to side, but something holds it in and stops it from being pulled back out the switch. Pulling on the legs eventually tore one of the legs apart. You can pull the slider out the top, but you can't then push out the reed assembly as it's actually segregated from the slider chamber by a wall! The reed module has its very own chamber, which is new.

So this is what's left of it after demolishing it to get that reed module out!
Omone.jpg
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The broken-off piece of leg is in the middle.

The switches:
Omtwo.jpg
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Omthree.jpg
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I don't know what I'll do for the wiki, as there's no non-tacky way to show that this is a reed switch!

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Khers

13 Jan 2017, 22:13

Apart from the fact that the chamber broke upon disassembly, I still think it looks distinctively reed :)

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Daniel Beardsmore

13 Jan 2017, 22:28

It does, but that would be a truly horrible wiki photo.

By the way, if anyone in the US wants two B2R-G1 switches, I'll buy them so long as the recipient takes decent wiki photos. This is the non-keyboard version, on sale at Paradise Arcade Shop, and it would be nice to include it too.

I's cheaper for me to send them to a photographer in the US than the $48 minimum to ship two poxy switches to Britain. If no-one's interested I'll see if I can arrange sensible shipping and destroy those too.

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ohaimark
Kingpin

13 Jan 2017, 23:49

Do you have a dremel with a cutting wheel attachment? Cutting the plastic would be much cleaner than using snips.

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Ail

14 Jan 2017, 00:32

I just ordered a set. I will take some pictures when they arrive.

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Daniel Beardsmore

14 Jan 2017, 00:41

You'd have to execute a very, very fine cut — you can see in the last picture where the reed module slides in, and you'd have to surgically disassemble that chamber without doing any harm to whatever it is in the reed module that secures it.

I didn't use snips — I used what you'd call an "X-Acto" knife (and blunt, as all the spare blades I got 20 years ago long since vanished without trace) to slice open one side and then just rip it apart with a screwdriver. I'd already crushed the capsule to powder before this stage.

I don't actually want to cut anything apart at all, since then the switch is ruined regardless, but I don't understand what holds that reed module in place. The capsule is so close to the bottom (it's actually visible in the photo) that trying to prise it apart will shatter it instantly.

My guess is that the top pair of tapered lugs on the sides go into recesses inside, since the bottom ones don't seem to correspond with anything and I can just see something (I'd have to tear more of it apart to be sure). The chamber does open to two very small holes at the top (a little over 0.6 × 1.3 mm), meaning that a very rigid wire inserted into each side might force it out, but you'd need neutronium or some such for it to not buckle under the extreme force needed to get this thing back out.

They did not intend for these to ever come apart!

I don't even know how the lamp is meant to be wired up, and there are things on the side to snap various parts on that are also a mystery. More questions than answers with these things.

In fact, I have a switch here that I want X-raying. Meryl Miller sent me an impossible DC-60 switch: it's perfectly linear, in a series that was 100% tactile. He has no idea why it's linear, either. Since they don't come apart, the only way to see what the contacts look like is an x-ray. Maybe I should take it to the dentist next time I'm there.

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Daniel Beardsmore

14 Jan 2017, 00:42

Ail wrote: I just ordered a set. I will take some pictures when they arrive.
Of B2R-G1? I guess I don't need to order any — but the again, I have yet to see how good your photography skills are :)

I did ask earlier if they have any datasheets/catalogues — no response.

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Ail

14 Jan 2017, 00:43

Daniel Beardsmore wrote:
Ail wrote: I just ordered a set. I will take some pictures when they arrive.
Of B2R-G1? I guess I don't need to order any — but the again, I have yet to see how good your photography skills are :)

I did ask earlier if they have any datasheets/catalogues — no response.
That's why I bought them, in the event you do not fancy my pictures. :lol:

Right now I use my iPhone with one of those clip-on lenses, but I do have photography background and access to a DSLR, so either way I will end up taking sufficient pictures.

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Daniel Beardsmore

14 Jan 2017, 00:51

Lighting is actually more important than anything, as Muirium always points out. Also important is a clear, neutral background. The one thing that really annoys me is images cropped within a millimetre of their life — leave a nice border around the image and keep the aspect ratio constant across all the images. I realise that some cameras are 4:3 and others are widescreen (wideccd?) and that the wiki will never have complete consistency as a result (mix and match of images between photo sets will always be at risk of inconsistent aspect ratios) but image sets are so much nicer when they're not cropped to death.

Camera quality is some way down the list, although my camera is horribly inadequate (and yet I keep churning out more rubbish photos after more rubbish photos … well, not really, as I now have over 3000 images unprocessed as cleaning up the mess is too tedious and I just abandon them all unpublished).

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Ail

14 Jan 2017, 01:31

I have lots of uniform, neutral lighting at work, and anything can be reasonably corrected in Photoshop so long as you are not taking photos in the dark with a potato. I will assemble a makeshift photo box to use as a backdrop.

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Daniel Beardsmore

14 Jan 2017, 01:38

Well, since I didn't pay for them (which I was intending to do) I can't complain as much ;-)

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Harshmallow

14 Jan 2017, 05:31

How do they feel? Like buttery smooth linears I suppose since they're reeds. I was quite excited when I tied this switch to that mysterious Fanuc keyboard all on my own last week :P I want one now. There are tons of Fanuc key pads on ebay with these and with a slightly different looking switch.

tigpha

14 Jan 2017, 10:53

When cutting open components made of plastic, I find that the best tools to use are a narrow chisel (6mm or 1/4") and a sturdy retaining device to hold fast the victim. The retaining device is carved from wood to fit the purpose. Using a vise will risk crushing the component. This is the best way I know of to make a controlled, precise cut. The plastic, if not too brittle, can be shaved away gradually. With due care and patience, the rest of the component won't suffer too much strain from the operation.

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Daniel Beardsmore

14 Jan 2017, 14:08

For accuracy I won't cut apart anything I can pull apart. Fortunately the others seem more co-operative:
IMGP3385.jpg
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The grip from the pliers has upset the smooth solder finish, so I may see if I can smooth that out.

They're not hugely smooth, no — scratchy and some are a bit juddery. I guess they're all heavily used.

Light though -- something like 50–55 cN actuation force!

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Daniel Beardsmore

15 Jan 2017, 20:08

Curses. I realised earlier that I never thought to specify that some of the switches in my order should be the illuminated version. (Some of the Fanuc keyboard's keys have a centre light.)

The slider seems designed to hold a lamp, and there are holes in the base for two extra terminals at the bottom, marked "K" and "A", suggesting that an LED is to be used (often these old switches used incandescent bulbs). Now, normally the lamp attaches to the switch, as having the lamp move with the slider is complicated.

Here, the lamp goes into the slider, so how is the slider motion accounted for? All the lamp rigging is missing from the non-illuminable version!

If anyone else ever orders any of these (and I doubt anyone will at that price), be sure to get at least one illuminated version.

So close … so close …

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Harshmallow

16 Jan 2017, 17:19

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: Curses. I realised earlier that I never thought to specify that some of the switches in my order should be the illuminated version. (Some of the Fanuc keyboard's keys have a centre light.)

The slider seems designed to hold a lamp, and there are holes in the base for two extra terminals at the bottom, marked "K" and "A", suggesting that an LED is to be used (often these old switches used incandescent bulbs). Now, normally the lamp attaches to the switch, as having the lamp move with the slider is complicated.

Here, the lamp goes into the slider, so how is the slider motion accounted for? All the lamp rigging is missing from the non-illuminable version!

If anyone else ever orders any of these (and I doubt anyone will at that price), be sure to get at least one illuminated version.

So close … so close …
So that fancy new 'original' Logitech Romer-G switch they always go on about was just a more modern, pre-existing Omron design. That does make sense I suppose...or maybe Logitech asked for it when they approached Omron to make this switch.

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Daniel Beardsmore

18 Jan 2017, 00:25

The two are stoatally different in pretty much every way imaginable. Maybe one day I'll get to see the inside of the LED version. The holes for the terminals are so close to the spring that I have to wonder if the illuminated version doesn't have a normal return spring, as the spring looks too close to causing a short circuit for my liking. The slider with its LED fitted moves relative to the terminals (a very rare design), and this arrangement may be sprung directly. If I'd only asked for the LED version :(

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Harshmallow

18 Jan 2017, 02:08

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: The two are stoatally different in pretty much every way imaginable. Maybe one day I'll get to see the inside of the LED version. The holes for the terminals are so close to the spring that I have to wonder if the illuminated version doesn't have a normal return spring, as the spring looks too close to causing a short circuit for my liking. The slider with its LED fitted moves relative to the terminals (a very rare design), and this arrangement may be sprung directly. If I'd only asked for the LED version :(
Oh I understand now - I'm still clueless, but I have a better understanding of it now. My very scientific analysis: Romer-G haz square slider with LED in middle, B2R-M1 Haz LED in middle, therefore reasons. Even though one isn't magnetic.

No, but seriously, that sounds complicated - having a light that moves in such a way with the slider. If I come across a cheap one in North America I might order it for you to see it taken apart. Don't fret, there's plenty of treasure left in China to be sold at exorbitant prices on Taobao =D

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Daniel Beardsmore

18 Jan 2017, 09:28

B2R accepts a two-pin LED (single colour), while B3K (Romer-G) simply provides a cavity for a surface mount LED, which can be RGB (four-terminal). B3K then provides a light pipe to bring the light up to the keycap level; this does not move. The B3K design untangles the switch from the lighting implementation, while with Cherry MX you're officially tied to single-colour LEDs. Many Cherry MX clone switches allow a wide four-terminal LED to utilise all four holes (inner LED holes and outer diode/jumper holes) by making the switch slot long. Cherry themselves did the same thing as Logitech/Omron and allow an SMD LED to sit within the switch. Matias switches are similar but the LED has to go on the back of the PCB.

B2R is of course a reed switch. B3K has what seems to be a unique design where a single pair of contacts provides two sets of contacts, so from the outside it's one SPST switch, and from the inside it's a pair of switches, the idea being I assume is that if one side goes jittery (leading to chatter), the other side will function normally and conduct while the other side is bouncing: the bounce won't be detected by the keyboard controller.

B3K is tactile. Not very tactile, but the tactility is there. B2R is 100% linear — being a reed switch, you can't even feel the contacts engage. At least one switch would emit a faint click, but by and large the only sound you hear is scraping (they may be worn, as when new I'd expect them to be much smoother and quieter).

B2R is both downstroke and upstroke damped, using two very different approaches. The downstroke damping uses a rubber pad pressed onto the bottom of the slider, and the sides of this collide with posts inside the switch. The upstroke damping uses a "waistband" around the middle of the slider, with a protrusion that catches on a downwards-facing ledge inside the shell.

Detailed pictures of B3K are on the wiki. More pictures of B2R will follow, although there's not a lot to see as the shell doesn't come apart and it's hard to see inside. The additional pictures will be of more use in demonstrating the damping, and the off-centre return spring. The action (the reed module) is already covered (not a great photo, as it was at the very edge of macro depth of field).

Both switches are notable for being quite unlike anything else on the market, and neither one is anything remotely like the other. They are both comparatively light though, and B2R in particular should in theory feel superb when new. If Mr.Nobody manages to get hold of new ones, maybe we'll find out. (There's also five on eBay, but I won't use eBay.)

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Daniel Beardsmore

18 Jan 2017, 19:18

By the way, Guru from Oz was kind enough to take some [wiki]FANUC System P Model G[/wiki] keyboard photos; this is the LED switch from above:

Image

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Harshmallow

18 Jan 2017, 19:51

Thanks for explaining that Daniel! By the way, the ones on Ebay look like they were ripped out of a used keyboard anyway, so I doubt they're anything close to new. So, this is the Fanuc keypad with the other type of switch I mentioned - perhaps it's being used in their newer models? Is it even a discrete switch? I'm not sure. It also seems to be a Fujitsu/Fanuc produced board:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/IKEGAI-CNC-LATHE ... SwunJWFCog

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Daniel Beardsmore

18 Jan 2017, 20:27

I meant these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/B2R-M1-Micro-sw ... 1622849800 — actual NOS switches, here called "M1" even though they are marked "M".

Yours, no idea what those are — a larger, brighter picture may help (the shape of the shell may hold clues).

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Harshmallow

18 Jan 2017, 21:52

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: I meant these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/B2R-M1-Micro-sw ... 1622849800 — actual NOS switches, here called "M1" even though they are marked "M".

Yours, no idea what those are — a larger, brighter picture may help (the shape of the shell may hold clues).

I know, those are the ones I meant - the ebay link I just posted was for a separate topic. I was just wondering what the other Fanuc keypads had for switches. You really think those B2R-M1 look like NOS? Maybe it's just the lighting, but they don't look that new to me. Edit: Well the seller is marking them as new, and I don't see any solder on the set of switch pins that are showing...so I guess I was wrong.

Does this image give a better idea?
Fanuc.jpg
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Daniel Beardsmore

18 Jan 2017, 23:07

The keycap mount is indeed that of B2R. Here's some kind of sealed B2R:

http://china.makepolo.com/product-detail/8870669.html

It's not the same as that, but they're similar, and I've never seen anything else like either of them.

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livingspeedbump
Not what they seem

20 Jan 2017, 06:01

I actually have a board with these in it.

Image

With the dust guards they feel absolutely atrocious. Extremely heavy and extremely mushy. With the rubber dust guard removed they are actually quite nice linears.

Image

The Faunc machine they came from:
Spoiler:
Image
Album: http://imgur.com/a/Uqj80
I will get some better shots of this and make a post sooner or later. I'll also desolder a switch and try to get some good wiki shots.

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Daniel Beardsmore

20 Jan 2017, 09:49

I've taken more photos of the switches, but they just need cleaning up before being posted. What I can't achieve is a photo of the reed module or full disassembly without ugly solder on the terminals — there are NOS switches out there, so it's not an impossibility, and I'll deal with those photos last just in case I manage to get new ones.

Whatever you do, don't try taking them apart if you want them to live. The force required to remove the slider is so great that you can crush the keystem to death (most of the time even serrated pliers just slip off — the slider is something like POM and it's very hard and smooth, while the keystem is hollow and able to be mangled).

The hardest thing to shoot is the internal details; I've captured them all but it's hard to get light inside the switch.

It's only the LED switch that I really want the details on. As you will eventually see, the spring appears to overlap the holes for the extra terminals, so the LED power is likely to short-circuit through the spring. I assume that the LED ones have some alternative mechanism for the spring.

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Ail

20 Jan 2017, 23:13

Those switches I ordered showed up today. Is there a way to get these open without breaking anything? It does not seem immediately apparent to me, and I figured I'd ask before I do break something.

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Daniel Beardsmore

20 Jan 2017, 23:29

I've not ordered any yet, so I don't know what the G1 type is like. M type is just all pushed together, and it takes a lot of force to pull the reed module and slider back out. One slider was destroyed trying to get it out, but the switch at the top of the thread has intact slider that I can substitute for the broken one.

There are no details on G1 in English (and I don't recall seeing any in any language but Japanese which I can't read and is virtually impossible to machine translate with current technology).

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Ail

21 Jan 2017, 00:29

Yeah it does look that way to me, like it is pushed together. There's certainly no clips or anything that would indicate that they can be reasonably separated without significant force.

These do feel quite nice though. Very smooth.

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Ail

21 Jan 2017, 00:34

Also, these feel very linear, but about half-way down the travel there is the faintest of clicks, that is very consistently there on each press. Not sure what is in there causing that, perhaps the actuation point where contact is made?

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