suggestions for /dev/tty2 ?

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

05 Jan 2020, 10:17

I'm prepping the new group buy for MT3 /dev/tty that should go live in a few weeks.

Before going live there's anything you'd like to see in it? So far it covers 40...75%, TKL, numpad, ortholinear, international, apple, colemak/dvorat/etc. This time we are also adding 1.5u in row 0 and row 1 and a plethora of new spacebars (1u, 2u, 2.25u, 2.75u and so on)

Someone suggested APL keys, which is not a bad idea but maybe a little... niche. We won't have russian or elven.

This is a preview just so you know what we are talking about
main-kits.png
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User avatar
Laser
emacs -nw

05 Jan 2020, 13:45

Vim/Emacs/Atom/Sublime etc. logos in the extra keyset, as Esc, CapsLock replacement?

bit-shifter

05 Jan 2020, 14:10

Have a set, so won't be in for the drop - but is ISO UK/NorDe included in the supported layouts?

User avatar
AJM

05 Jan 2020, 16:23

I'm very glad to see the R5 keys are still there (It's a pity that other MT3 sets don't have those)!

- Please correct the legend on numpad Enter (R5): legend is upside down in round 1 and 2
- more consistent positioning of the legends in general - especially in the International Kit - and here especially the "0/=" key, where the legends are ALWAYS too far up
- please offer kits with blanks again

nice to have:
- a new color version for mods would be nice (the blue from "Godspeed" looks good, for example)
- a mods version with symbols instead of text
- that's probably asking a bit much: A row 5 with convex keys (like the keys beside the spacebar on most beamspring boards) would make /dev/tty perfect

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

05 Jan 2020, 16:44

Laser wrote:
05 Jan 2020, 13:45
Vim/Emacs/Atom/Sublime etc. logos in the extra keyset, as Esc, CapsLock replacement?
as long as it's open source :) (ie: not sublime)
bit-shifter wrote:
05 Jan 2020, 14:10
Have a set, so won't be in for the drop - but is ISO UK/NorDe included in the supported layouts?
yes there's an international kit
AJM wrote:
05 Jan 2020, 16:23
- Please correct the legend on numpad Enter (R5): legend is upside down in round 1 and 2
- more consistent positioning of the legends in general - especially in the International Kit - and here especially the "0/=" key, where the legends are ALWAYS too far up
unfortunately I can only check the set they send me, which is often different from the final production.
AJM wrote:
05 Jan 2020, 16:23
- a mods version with symbols instead of text
I was thinking about that, but it would be 2 colorways x 2 mods versions (icon and standard). That would be basically 4 group buys...

Findecanor

05 Jan 2020, 18:00

I wouldn't advertise 40% support as being in the base kit, in its current form.
Most 40% keyboards I have seen are reduced also in width to 12 or 13 units (60% is 15u), by having less wide keys such as:
R2: 1u Esc, 1u Backspace (in place of Tab)
R3: 1.25u Tab (in place of Caps Lock), 1.75u Enter
R4: 1.75u and 1.25u Shift keys (only former is included)
But some 40% keyboards use instead 1.5u Backspace, 1.25u Enter and 1u right Shift ...

User avatar
XMIT
[ XMIT ]

05 Jan 2020, 21:14

My wish list:

Control / Caps Lock swap kit. Full word CONTROL spelled out on 1.75u R3 key. Two row CAPSLK with icon legend on R4 modifier.

Embedded numpad? You did this on Granite and it was great!

COMPOSE, ALTGR modifiers. macOS COMMAND and OPTION modifiers. Open Diamond key modifier for R4/R5 like you have on R1.

Flat top 3 would be neat.

Red XMIT key? :ugeek:

Findecanor

05 Jan 2020, 22:27

BTW, there are two 1u R4 "Fn" keys. Were there supposed to be?
XMIT wrote:
05 Jan 2020, 21:14
COMPOSE, ALTGR modifiers. macOS COMMAND and OPTION modifiers.
I think Alt Gr might fit better in an ISO kit. I don't think there are that many users of "US International" that would need it.

How about two modifiers that say "COM" to catch both "Command" and "Compose"? Would Mac users dislike it being "COM" instead of "CMD"?
Last edited by Findecanor on 06 Jan 2020, 16:57, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

06 Jan 2020, 08:34

XMIT wrote:
05 Jan 2020, 21:14
Embedded numpad? You did this on Granite and it was great!
what do you mean? Merging the numpad into the base kit?
Findecanor wrote:
05 Jan 2020, 22:27
BTW, there are two 1u R4 "Fn" keys. Were there supposed to be?
shift row + bottom row (but the kit is not final)
Findecanor wrote:
05 Jan 2020, 22:27
Would Mac users dislike it being "COM" instead of "CMD"?
that would be serious heresy :D

User avatar
XMIT
[ XMIT ]

06 Jan 2020, 12:21

matt3o wrote:
06 Jan 2020, 08:34
XMIT wrote:
05 Jan 2020, 21:14
Embedded numpad? You did this on Granite and it was great!
what do you mean? Merging the numpad into the base kit?
I mean a Realforce 87u style embedded numpad like you did in Granite Round 4.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=23277&p=457845#p457845

Image

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

06 Jan 2020, 13:45

mmh that's not a bad idea

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

06 Jan 2020, 16:20

very very very preliminary work.

I tried to make a very comprehensive base kit, it's easier for fulfillment and Drop says they are full of noobs. But anyway I asked to quote the base kit to see where we are going with the cost, if it ends up being too expensive I'll split it somehow.

Of course everything will be also available in teal mods. I had not a single request for ergodox over the past year or so... so I guess that ship has sailed. I still miss a few keys, the spacebars and some extras (being APL or the secondary legends or whatever)
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Findecanor

06 Jan 2020, 17:06

I would put:
• Alt Gr in the International Kit
• Numpad R1 "CLR" in the Apple Kit. "Clear" on Macintosh is the same key as Num Lock on PC, but with a different meaning. The key is even called "Num Lock and Clear" in the USB spec.
matt3o wrote:
05 Jan 2020, 16:44
Laser wrote:
05 Jan 2020, 13:45
Vim/Emacs/Atom/Sublime etc. logos in the extra keyset, as Esc, CapsLock replacement?
as long as it's open source :) (ie: not sublime)
Note: Just because the source code it is open source, does not always mean that you would have rights to the project's logo. Unless there is a clause about it on the project's web site that states it, I would ask.

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

06 Jan 2020, 18:17

Findecanor wrote:
06 Jan 2020, 17:06
Note: Just because the source code it is open source, does not always mean that you would have rights to the project's logo. Unless there is a clause about it on the project's web site that states it, I would ask.
you got it wrong. sorry I wasn't clear. I don't want to support any closed source software with my work. If the software is open source and the license permits to use the logo I'm okay with that (VIM can be used as the TUX or Debian logo, but Arch linux logo can't be used for example).

That being said, this is Drop project and I don't want Drop to profit on those icons if they don't give a % to the various organizations/developers.

User avatar
XMIT
[ XMIT ]

06 Jan 2020, 19:46

Findecanor wrote:
06 Jan 2020, 17:06
I would put:
• Numpad R1 "CLR" in the Apple Kit. "Clear" on Macintosh is the same key as Num Lock on PC, but with a different meaning. The key is even called "Num Lock and Clear" in the USB spec.
Well, how much Mac keypad support do you want? You'd have to add a 1u R3 '+', a 1u R2 '-', and a 1u R1 '=' to have a traditional Mac numpad.

HungerMechanic

06 Jan 2020, 21:06

I'm one of the people who was left out from the original GB...I wasn't into keyboards at the time.

Since that time I have desperately tried to get a full classic set, but I wasn't fast enough in the .00025 seconds R2 sold out during the 'keycap recap.'

So I'd like to ask, will the Triumph mods be available? I would have gotten in on the small TKL-sized Drop buy a few months ago, but there were no Triumph mods. I basically want to buy a hefty R2 dev/tty.

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

06 Jan 2020, 21:12

HungerMechanic wrote:
06 Jan 2020, 21:06
So I'd like to ask, will the Triumph mods be available? I would have gotten in on the small TKL-sized Drop buy a few months ago, but there were no Triumph mods. I basically want to buy a hefty R2 dev/tty.
yes, triumph will be available

HungerMechanic

06 Jan 2020, 21:13

matt3o wrote:
06 Jan 2020, 16:20

Of course everything will be also available in teal mods. I had not a single request for ergodox over the past year or so... so I guess that ship has sailed. I still miss a few keys, the spacebars and some extras (being APL or the secondary legends or whatever)
Ok, sorry, so teal means Triumph mods? That sounds pretty good. Let me have some coffee and I'll check over this but right now it's looking good.

EDIT: Saw your post, that's great. I'll be getting this for sure.

User avatar
depletedvespene

06 Jan 2020, 21:15

Quick comments:

- Vertical ("ISO") Enter in the base kit, yadda yadda yadda (let us note that adding it would carry, at the very least, the R3 \| key into the base kit, to support properly English (USA) over ANSI and ANSISO; the left Shift complaints can be left for round 2 in this fight, so to speak ;) ).

- Split space bars (one 2.25U and one 2.75U would be the barest minimum here and would gel in well with the <=75% layouts).

- You seem to have no tertiary legends on anlpha keys anywhere EXCEPT in the R1 `¬| key (for English (UK)). My opinion about the omission of tertiaries notwithstanding, I find that one inclusion to be a bit weird (also, it should be `¬¦, given R4 has \| and not ). Why not have simply instead?

- Base kit has the usual two versions of the corner alpha key (`~). The international kit has no mod-colored corner keys ( etc). Could they be present? The answer might perfectly well be "No.", but the question does need to be asked.

- I'll check thoroughly the international kit when I get home. For now, note the key is present twice.

- BTW, is there a finalized list of national layouts to be supported? I see English (UK), German, Danish, Norwegian, Swedish/Finnish, Spanish (Spain) and Italian, but not, say, Portuguese (Portugal) and others.

- Why no F20..F24?

- Remember to add as many AltGr keys to the (whichever) kit as needed to replace all the RALT keys in the base kit.

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

07 Jan 2020, 09:08

depletedvespene wrote:
06 Jan 2020, 21:15
- Vertical ("ISO") Enter in the base kit, yadda yadda yadda (let us note that adding it would carry, at the very least, the R3 \| key into the base kit, to support properly English (USA) over ANSI and ANSISO; the left Shift complaints can be left for round 2 in this fight, so to speak ;) ).
depends on pricing of the base kit. Adding ISO enter means adding 4 keys. We'll see how it goes.
depletedvespene wrote:
06 Jan 2020, 21:15
- Split space bars (one 2.25U and one 2.75U would be the barest minimum here and would gel in well with the <=75% layouts).
there are spacebars for everybody (sold separately). We have almost everything from 1u to 7u.
depletedvespene wrote:
06 Jan 2020, 21:15
- You seem to have no tertiary legends on anlpha keys anywhere EXCEPT in the R1 `¬| key (for English (UK)). My opinion about the omission of tertiaries notwithstanding, I find that one inclusion to be a bit weird (also, it should be `¬¦, given R4 has \| and not ). Why not have simply instead?
We had the | removed and the Brits raised their eyebrow (which is the equivalent of rioting anywhere else in the world).
depletedvespene wrote:
06 Jan 2020, 21:15
- Base kit has the usual two versions of the corner alpha key (`~). The international kit has no mod-colored corner keys ( etc). Could they be present? The answer might perfectly well be "No.", but the question does need to be asked.
International kit must be as cheap as possible.
depletedvespene wrote:
06 Jan 2020, 21:15
- BTW, is there a finalized list of national layouts to be supported? I see English (UK), German, Danish, Norwegian, Swedish/Finnish, Spanish (Spain) and Italian, but not, say, Portuguese (Portugal) and others.
DE, DK, ES, FI, IT, NO, SE, UK

A couple of them are there just because it's like 1-3 additional keys, but they sell very little in those countries (yeah I'm looking at you DK). I made the effort of designing the bloody French layout once and nobody got it, so I'm very... prudent when it comes to design international kits.
depletedvespene wrote:
06 Jan 2020, 21:15
- Why no F20..F24?
oh c'mon :D

User avatar
depletedvespene

07 Jan 2020, 13:26

matt3o wrote:
07 Jan 2020, 09:08
depletedvespene wrote:
06 Jan 2020, 21:15
- Vertical ("ISO") Enter in the base kit, yadda yadda yadda (let us note that adding it would carry, at the very least, the R3 \| key into the base kit, to support properly English (USA) over ANSI and ANSISO; the left Shift complaints can be left for round 2 in this fight, so to speak ;) ).
depends on pricing of the base kit. Adding ISO enter means adding 4 keys. We'll see how it goes.
Four? Mod-colored Enter, accent-colored Enter, R3 \| and... ?

Remember we're talking about the left Shift key separately (which would require two or three more: 1.25U left Shift + R4 \| and/or <>).


matt3o wrote:
07 Jan 2020, 09:08
depletedvespene wrote:
06 Jan 2020, 21:15
- Split space bars (one 2.25U and one 2.75U would be the barest minimum here and would gel in well with the <=75% layouts).
there are spacebars for everybody (sold separately). We have almost everything from 1u to 7u.
Excellent.

matt3o wrote:
07 Jan 2020, 09:08
depletedvespene wrote:
06 Jan 2020, 21:15
- You seem to have no tertiary legends on anlpha keys anywhere EXCEPT in the R1 `¬| key (for English (UK)). My opinion about the omission of tertiaries notwithstanding, I find that one inclusion to be a bit weird (also, it should be `¬¦, given R4 has \| and not ). Why not have simply instead?
We had the | removed and the Brits raised their eyebrow (which is the equivalent of rioting anywhere else in the world).
Add it or keep it out, but do take into account:

1) The (regular) English (UK) layout has TWO keys with tertiary legends: `¬¦ and 4$€ (although with Brexit coming... who knows). So, IMNAAHO, you should be adding OR omitting both tertiaries (¦ and ).

2) The pipe (|) and the broken bar (¦) characters are both present in the English (UK) layout; the formal (old) standard dictates that the relevant keys are R1 `¬| and , but the current (since at least the late '80s) usage has flipped them and now everyone expects to get the keys R1 `¬¦ and \|. Pick the former or the latter (The latter! Pick the latter!), but...

3) The kit, as it stands now, has R1 `¬| and \| (two pipes, no broken bars).


I can't believe I'm defending the presence of the broken bar character, anyway...


matt3o wrote:
07 Jan 2020, 09:08
depletedvespene wrote:
06 Jan 2020, 21:15
- Base kit has the usual two versions of the corner alpha key (`~). The international kit has no mod-colored corner keys ( etc). Could they be present? The answer might perfectly well be "No.", but the question does need to be asked.
International kit must be as cheap as possible.
... and a good way of attaining that is to move seven keys off from it and into the base kit (both Enter keys, both Shift keys, R3 \|, R4 \| and R4 <>).


matt3o wrote:
07 Jan 2020, 09:08
depletedvespene wrote:
06 Jan 2020, 21:15
- BTW, is there a finalized list of national layouts to be supported? I see English (UK), German, Danish, Norwegian, Swedish/Finnish, Spanish (Spain) and Italian, but not, say, Portuguese (Portugal) and others.
DE, DK, ES, FI, IT, NO, SE, UK

A couple of them are there just because it's like 1-3 additional keys, but they sell very little in those countries (yeah I'm looking at you DK). I made the effort of designing the bloody French layout once and nobody got it, so I'm very... prudent when it comes to design international kits.
Have I got a good eye or what? :D

I'll take the detailed look at the kit now that you confirmed what I had deduced.

matt3o wrote:
07 Jan 2020, 09:08
depletedvespene wrote:
06 Jan 2020, 21:15
- Why no F20..F24?
oh c'mon :D
I suppose there's no point to adding F25..F36, then. :(

Jokes aside, what I've seen lately in custom keycap sets is the "resurgence" of F13 (get a TKL, shove all the F keys a bit to the left, put a new key between F12 and PrintScreen), but F14 onwards remains the realm of bettleship keyboards for terminals. I understand the rationale for adding F13, the rationale for F13..F24, but not F13..F19.



And just to be pissy, I'll do one more:

- What about a Wang-style 2U Delete key? ;) ;) ;) ;)

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

07 Jan 2020, 15:35

depletedvespene wrote:
07 Jan 2020, 13:26
I understand the rationale for adding F13, the rationale for F13..F24, but not F13..F19.
Image

btw, thanks for your feedback. I'll see what I can do, but the basekit can only shrink!

andrewjoy

07 Jan 2020, 16:38

Alps support ?

User avatar
depletedvespene

07 Jan 2020, 17:49

matt3o wrote:
07 Jan 2020, 15:35
depletedvespene wrote:
07 Jan 2020, 13:26
I understand the rationale for adding F13, the rationale for F13..F24, but not F13..F19.
Image
Well, that's a fantastic rationale to REMOVE support for F14..F19! ;) ;) ;)

matt3o wrote:
07 Jan 2020, 15:35
btw, thanks for your feedback. I'll see what I can do, but the basekit can only shrink!
Always glad to.

User avatar
AJM

07 Jan 2020, 19:36

Just for the record: I don't want to add more and more keys, but instead would actually prefer smaller kits in general. Even, if it would cost the same for fewer keys in the end. The growing mountain of unnecessary R0 keys in my cupboard is hurting my environmental conscience a bit by now. ;)
I would prefer kit sizes like:
- 60 %
- nav keys + 65% extras
- numpad
- R0 keys
- winkeyless kit
- international kit

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

08 Jan 2020, 10:49

Drop prefers to merge kits as much as possible. I understand that because of: 1) they have a vast majority of noob customers; 2) less prone to fulfillment errors.

I'll try to have a side printed kit
side-printed.png
side-printed.png (96.28 KiB) Viewed 1053 times
if I can't have it side printed I'll drop it altogether... but I'd like to add more options. One could be PETSCII (but would be pure vanity). We could also add VOL UP/DOWN/MUTE somewhere... and so on. Ideas?

User avatar
Cholo

08 Jan 2020, 11:17

If it has International/ISO-IT, I'll be in. I really like when international kits includes ISO keys. I'd prefer red ISO enter instead of teal, but grey is fine.

How about a dark alternative? Maybe just dark grey alpha keys with the same modifiers?

Kind of OT: Do you know anything about Granite SA GB on Kono store? Last weekly update is like, a month old? :/

User avatar
matt3o
-[°_°]-

08 Jan 2020, 15:18

Cholo wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 11:17
If it has International/ISO-IT, I'll be in.
yes it has.
Cholo wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 11:17
Kind of OT: Do you know anything about Granite SA GB on Kono store? Last weekly update is like, a month old? :/
I try to stay up to date with I:C but they are not very talkative.

User avatar
depletedvespene

08 Jan 2020, 20:51

matt3o wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 10:49
if I can't have it side printed I'll drop it altogether... but I'd like to add more options. One could be PETSCII (but would be pure vanity). We could also add VOL UP/DOWN/MUTE somewhere... and so on. Ideas?
What about "Test", "Cursr" and "Blink" under V, B and N, respectively, as in the Kishsaver, F77 and F107 keyboards?

User avatar
depletedvespene

08 Jan 2020, 20:53

matt3o wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 10:49
if I can't have it side printed I'll drop it altogether... but I'd like to add more options. One could be PETSCII (but would be pure vanity). We could also add VOL UP/DOWN/MUTE somewhere... and so on. Ideas?
Ooooooh... I KNOW, I KNOW, I KNOW!!!

Frontprint N on the A key, O on the B key, P on the C key, .... M on the Z key. :D

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