Group Build prototyping phase

[matt3o]

I believe I nailed it

...

this is so funky I might end up making it. Look at it, it's adorable... and still stabilizer-free!

The problem with 1.75u is still anecdotal so not worth commenting until I did some serious testing.

I like it!

got the duck seal of approval!

edit: I do hope 1.75 works as spacebars, otherwise I'll try with 1.5 as Muir suggested.

[Muirium]

Can't argue with Duckthority…

[webwit]

It's an anecdote you can test for yourself: try wobbling your Caps Lock / Control key, and then try Tab just above it. That's the difference between 1.75u and 1.5u. It's not horrible, but it is there. 1.75u is very close to needing a stab.

Old Korean trick, applied differently. What happens if you remove the 1.75u cap, cut a small square of scotch tape, apply it on the stem, and put the keycap back on again? Is the wobble still the same?

[bearcat]

QQ: what's the motivation behind avoiding stabs? hard to source?

also, curious if anyone's tried this: if you have e.g. a 3 unit or greater, can you just mount three switches and take the springs out of all but the middle switch? does that work?

[Muirium]

Not too difficult to source. I have hoarded a few for these projects anyway! The reasons to avoid them are: general simplicity (no need to consider their mounting points in our plate and PCB designs), more compact layouts with smaller keys, and arguably better feel and sound. You can surely hear and feel the stabilised keys in your board while typing. Stabs make a difference.

I'm not against using them (I picked them up for a reason) but the idea of going stab-free is interesting in its own right. At least as an experiment.

As for using switches as stabs:

http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/grou ... ro#p160876

It doesn't quite work. Those wires that stabs have are there for a reason!

[bearcat]

ah, ok; so even if you take the springs out, you're missing the torsion wire?

Here's the svg for the plate, if anyone wants to put a border around it & ponoko it:

Code: Select all

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</g>
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</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(180.4 20) rotate(0 -159.9 0.5)">
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</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(200.45000000000002 20) rotate(0 -179.95000000000002 0.5)">
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</g>
</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(220.5 20) rotate(0 -200 0.5)">
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</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(90.175 40.05) rotate(0 -69.675 -19.549999999999997)">
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</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(130.275 40.05) rotate(0 -109.775 -19.549999999999997)">
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</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(150.32500000000002 40.05) rotate(0 -129.82500000000002 -19.549999999999997)">
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</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(210.475 40.05) rotate(0 -189.975 -19.549999999999997)">
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</g>
</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(270.625 40.05) rotate(0 -250.125 -19.549999999999997)">
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</g>
</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(290.675 40.05) rotate(0 -269.925 -19.549999999999997)">
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</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(20 60.1) rotate(0 0.875 -39.6)">
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</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(55.0875 60.1) rotate(0 -34.5875 -39.6)">
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</g>
</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(75.1375 60.1) rotate(0 -54.6375 -39.6)">
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</g>
</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(95.1875 60.1) rotate(0 -74.6875 -39.6)">
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</g>
</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(115.2375 60.1) rotate(0 -94.7375 -39.6)">
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</g>
</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(135.28750000000002 60.1) rotate(0 -114.78750000000002 -39.6)">
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</g>
</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(155.3375 60.1) rotate(0 -134.8375 -39.6)">
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</g>
</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(175.38750000000002 60.1) rotate(0 -154.88750000000002 -39.6)">
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</g>
</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(195.4375 60.1) rotate(0 -174.9375 -39.6)">
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</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(215.4875 60.1) rotate(0 -194.9875 -39.6)">
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</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(235.5375 60.1) rotate(0 -215.0375 -39.6)">
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</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(255.5875 60.1) rotate(0 -235.0875 -39.6)">
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</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(275.63750000000005 60.1) rotate(0 -255.01250000000005 -39.6)">
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</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(300.7 60.1) rotate(0 -280.2 -39.6)">
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</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(20 80.15) rotate(0 0.625 -59.650000000000006)">
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</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(45.0625 80.15) rotate(0 -24.5625 -59.650000000000006)">
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</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(65.11250000000001 80.15) rotate(0 -44.61250000000001 -59.650000000000006)">
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</g>
</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(85.16250000000001 80.15) rotate(0 -64.66250000000001 -59.650000000000006)">
<path d="M3.0250000000000004 3.0250000000000004 h1 v-1 h3.5 v1 h5.05 v-1 h3.5 v1 h1v1 h1 v3.5 h-1 v5.05 h1 v3.5 h-1 v1h-1 v1 h-3.5 v-1 h-5.05 v1 h-3.5 v-1 h-1v-1 h-1 v-3.5 h1 v-5.05 h-1 v-3.5 h1 v-1" fill="lightgrey" stroke="black" stroke-width=".1mm"></path><rect width="19.05" height="19.05" x="0.5" y="0.5" stroke="black" stroke-width=".1mm" fill="none"></rect>
</g>
</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(105.2125 80.15) rotate(0 -84.7125 -59.650000000000006)">
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</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(125.2625 80.15) rotate(0 -104.7625 -59.650000000000006)">
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</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(145.3125 80.15) rotate(0 -124.8125 -59.650000000000006)">
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</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(165.3625 80.15) rotate(0 -144.8625 -59.650000000000006)">
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</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(205.4625 80.15) rotate(0 -184.9625 -59.650000000000006)">
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</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(50.075 100.2) rotate(0 -29.575000000000003 -79.7)">
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</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(70.125 100.2) rotate(0 -49.375 -79.7)">
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</g>
</g><!-- end ngRepeat: key in keys() --><g ng-repeat="key in keys()" ng-mouseover="hoveredKey=key" ng-mouseleave="hoveredKey=null" ng-bind-html="key.svg" class="ng-scope ng-binding"><g transform="translate(100.2 100.2) rotate(0 -79.325 -79.7)">
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  </svg>

[bearcat]

(looks like this)

plate.png (36.38 KiB) Viewed 7955 times

[matt3o]

QQ: what's the motivation behind avoiding stabs? hard to source?

also, curious if anyone's tried this: if you have e.g. a 3 unit or greater, can you just mount three switches and take the springs out of all but the middle switch? does that work?

the stab-free is mainly an exercise in style. Also consider that the most expensive caps are 2u and up. If you remove them from the equation you end up with a rather inexpensive keyset.

There are many numpad and pos (mainly) with 2u/2-stems caps. For bigger keys you need the stabilizer because the metal wire distributes the force along the whole size of the keycap. So if you press on one end, the wire brings part of the force to the other side.

[woody]

What is the choice of stabilizers for PCB (no plate)?

[matt3o]

What is the choice of stabilizers for PCB (no plate)?

PCB mounted cherry stabilizer. don't think we have much options there.

[Broadmonkey]

Fortunately it's also the best option

[DanielT]

This is what I was thinking for the Teensy and USB :

ScreenShot1.png (185.3 KiB) Viewed 7906 times

ScreenShot.png (337.55 KiB) Viewed 7907 times

[matt3o]

yes it's totally feasible, but I don't think it fits a poker case. At least it wouldn't fit the Alu one I have that admittedly is very slimline

[DanielT]

I would pass on the Poker case compatibility, the cases are expensive, not easy to source in EU, and building a custom case is more fun :d . There are so many options for cases: wood, steel, gheto' style, aluminum, acrylic. Localy I found a fablab where a case would be around 30-40EUR in acrylic, with a nice choice of colors.

The PCB is a more interesting part

[Muirium]

Well, if they're good and we come up with a nice design, I might take you up on that! I bet cut acrylic is more expensive up here.

But I'm still keen to see how the wood test run works out. We're waiting on Matt's next paycheck, right!?

Metal Poker cases are pretty dashing, and I've always found them more appealing than the Poker itself. So I'm interested in a compatible PCB just in case. (Ugh!) Because I'm sure I can cook up something much more interesting, layout wise, in that size. Especially if there's cases that can take the PCB mounted header you showed!

[DanielT]

O yes! Poker cases are cool, I would love one for my Poker. If the PCB could fit the case that would bee something and I think than it is only a matter of finding the right position on the pcb for the Teensy. I have to find the topic where I saw a custom PCB + Teensy fitted on a Poker case, I saw that and it worked, the guy did some really nice things there.

I'm curious about the wooden case also, I'm waiting for the first experiments. Metal and wood are really cool combination.

L.E: I found it http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=24082.0

The teensy is placed on the upper side of the PCB under the space bar:

ScreenShot2.png (116 KiB) Viewed 7866 times

[woody]

What is the choice of stabilizers for PCB (no plate)?

PCB mounted cherry stabilizer. don't think we have much options there.

Thanks. I lack somewhat in the stabilizer department

[matt3o]

The teensy is placed on the upper side of the PCB under the space bar:

ScreenShot2.png

that can be done with PCB mounted switches only though. Or you could place a big hole in the plate just under the spacebar

[Muirium]

Which you pretty much do already for PCB mount Cherry stabs.

[DanielT]

Exactly and hole will not be vizible because is hidden behind the key caps. I think this is a good option if we want the PCB to be copatible with the Poker case. There are some problems if the bottom row has no classic space bar ...

[matt3o]

Exactly and hole will not be vizible because is hidden behind the key caps. I think this is a good option if we want the PCB to be copatible with the Poker case. There are some problems if the bottom row has no classic space bar ...

yes, definitely an option, but considering that GH60 is just around the corner, I don't find "standard" 60% layouts very appealing. Anyway if you want to experiment with that config, I'll be glad to help!

In the meantime I've probably found another laser cutter that is way cheaper than the other I was using so far!

[Muirium]

Nice! Because I've too many projects in mind this year to settle on just one…

[DanielT]

GH60.... I lost that boat, maybe I'll find one after the boards are shipped.
But is more fun building something from scrach, that's why I love this topic

[Muirium]

When the going gets weird, the weird turn custom!

Besides, I've M84s to put to good use. PCB mount only, and cute little buggers with MX mounts!



Bet the GH60 doesn't support those. I have low profile plans for these little guys. Hopefully even wireless ones…

[pyrelink]

When the going gets weird, the weird turn custom!

Besides, I've M84s to put to good use. PCB mount only, and cute little buggers with MX mounts!

How well do most key caps fit on those? They look like they would need some sort of low profile cap...

[Muirium]

Everything I have works fine. Including SA profile, believe it or not! The switch travel is only 2mm, but the mount holds even tall caps just nicely.

[pyrelink]

Speaking of key caps, the way that this is going, I assume it would be a good idea (now that 7bit has returned) to add a bunch of space bar options from whats left of Round 5?

I am really liking the stab-less ideas by the way.

[Muirium]

Correct!

[Vierax]

“Can read my, can read my, no you can't read my Poker case…”
I'm already out

[matt3o]

“Can read my, can read my, no you can't read my Poker case…”
I'm already out