Group Build prototyping phase

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Muirium
µ

18 Feb 2014, 11:35

madhias wrote:
Muirium wrote: Move Del to the right of Backspace and that's a handsome board. But whatever are you using function keys on a Mac for? That's my platform, too, and I only use them for media control and Exposé.
For example I have to use on my Mac a virtual Windows (Parallels) installation with some F-key-loving programs :)
Aha! Windows lurks behind the scenes…

I used FastScripts to run system wide accessible scripts from the f-keys many years ago. But Quicksilver is how I launch everything now. F3, F6 etc. are harder to remember than names.

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bazh

18 Feb 2014, 12:01

I dont know but just feel an additional right function key is more convenient to use with the secondary-function keys on the left (like the keypad on my mockup for example) :p I have 2 fn keys on my current HHKB pro2 too and the right one (which is actually the command key) help me alot when I need the arrow keys :D

JBert

18 Feb 2014, 12:36

But why stitch the F-keys to the alpha block? Even a little separation would help to locate them more easily...

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Muirium
µ

18 Feb 2014, 13:27

So, here's the SmallFry keyboard kit from Round 5.

Image

I really like it. But I'd struggle with so few mods, and that long spacebar isn't doing it for me. So, I just laid out two versions which can both be done with a TENKLESS kit and a 4.0 unit space bar.
BigFry.png
BigFry.png (178.39 KiB) Viewed 6472 times
You could probably make these from less than a (costly) TENKLESS kit. That was just my constraint when designing. The caps are fairly standard, besides the space bar.

With a keyboard as small as all these, you're going to live in the function layer. In fact, there's so little space, you'll really need two at least. So that's the motive for the liberal selection of mods: for layer access. Navigation, punctuation, TAB vs. ESC etc. is all in the layers.

The 4.0 space bar is my ideal one from Round 5. The even shorter 3.0 unit is the smallest size (unless I'm mistaken?) to be a true space bar shape (rounded, not squared), but the 4.0 has stab mounts. Round 5 has a 4.5 unit version, too, so there's plenty of choice for the audacious. In fact there are unstabilised space bars at 1.5 and 1.0 units too! But with a standard square profile.

LongFry is wide enough to be doable with a 6.25 unit space bar with some rearrangement, of course.

BigFry is the harder one. The space bar could easily be shunted left instead. And now I see why Jdcarpe went for that single legend period key. But I'm trying to stay standard.

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kint

18 Feb 2014, 14:15

I would have posted about an F row board, but rindorbrot tackled that already. There are a lot of Frow less boards out there, commercial products as well as community ones. Seldom one sees a small footprint board with Frow (TG3, Noppoo Choc, KBC race and keycool 84 are the only ones I can think of) so I vote for this as a (first) for a group buy.

Also, it is a very easy fix - goes well beside the Frow less boards. For example, if you make the space between Number Row and F row the size of the border atop of the top row everything apart from the middle layers can be reused. Instead of cutting the holes for the switches in the top plate, F row, theres a simple cut along that line to make a F row less board. Same with the bottom layer, and if the PCB is layed out accordingly even that could be reused the same way, no?

Here's a simple drawing, original image by madhias, just imagine the layout being the switch holes instead, the blue lines are the case outside:
frow.jpg
frow.jpg (57.14 KiB) Viewed 6455 times
If the general layout of the middle layer pieces are open at the top, as in no "O" shape frame but rather an "U" shape frame with a square profile piece atop the top row to close the gap, this will even make a corporate design for both, Frow equipped and less boards.

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damorgue

18 Feb 2014, 14:39

I'd like a keypad with a numpad in it. Eg:
Image
You could put an arrow cluster there, to allow it to be combined with a 60% while having the mouse inbetween. It could complement a 60% which you take with you and leave the pad at home. You could also place it to the left of your regular board and create a "leftie board" etc. Lots of possibilities, or just simply as a programmable keypad á la Genovation 682.


I think a board with numpad cluster or arrow cluster on the left side might be innovative too.

Also, there has been no custom with a few extra rows on top, to make it taller similar to an 1800 for instance.

Edit: I see lots of mixing of sizes of mods, even within the same board. This will become a hassle when it comes to finding caps for it. I am a proponent of using either 1.25, 1.5 or 1u mods on a board, not mix them up, and preferably the more standard sizes like 1.5u. Although I too would like to have a 4-5u spacebar, it will be very hard to source and very limiting.

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

18 Feb 2014, 14:44

damorgue wrote:Edit: I see lots of mixing of sizes of mods, even within the same board. This will become a hassle when it comes to finding caps for it. I am a proponent of using either 1.25, 1.5 or 1u mods on a board, not mix them up, and preferably the more standard sizes like 1.5u. Although I too would like to have a 4-5u spacebar, it will be very hard to source and very limiting.
THIS! :)

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Muirium
µ

18 Feb 2014, 14:51

Yeah, I'm still working on it. Besides, a 4u space bar or few is coming my way with Round 5 already, so it works for my purposes.

Re: left handed numpad, I have ideas about this too. Perhaps it could centre the home row on a TKL? The main thing I prefer in a 60% is its (near) horizontal symmetry.

Lefty numpad + function row less "TKL" = Balanced 90%?

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Madhias
BS TORPE

18 Feb 2014, 14:56

Ho! Lefthanded numpads, or numpad on the left side - i'm thinking of this since a view days. Wondering why it isn't like that, because it would be a nice idea when the mouse is on the right side of the board.

Most of the time i see pictures like keyboard-mouse-numpad and not numpad-keyboard-mouse. But maybe i haven't seen enough for now =]

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

18 Feb 2014, 15:13

This is another idea inspired by the many Function row designs you posted.

Image

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Muirium
µ

18 Feb 2014, 15:14

Both those mods aren't uniform!

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

18 Feb 2014, 15:18

whops sorry I missed this.
Muirium wrote:With a keyboard as small as all these, you're going to live in the function layer. In fact, there's so little space, you'll really need two at least. So that's the motive for the liberal selection of mods: for layer access. Navigation, punctuation, TAB vs. ESC etc. is all in the layers.

The 4.0 space bar is my ideal one from Round 5. The even shorter 3.0 unit is the smallest size (unless I'm mistaken?) to be a true space bar shape (rounded, not squared), but the 4.0 has stab mounts. Round 5 has a 4.5 unit version, too, so there's plenty of choice for the audacious. In fact there are unstabilised space bars at 1.5 and 1.0 units too! But with a standard square profile.

LongFry is wide enough to be doable with a 6.25 unit space bar with some rearrangement, of course.

BigFry is the harder one. The space bar could easily be shunted left instead. And now I see why Jdcarpe went for that single legend period key. But I'm trying to stay standard.
I believe the perfect midway is this:

Image

basically your longfry minus 1u, Maybe we could even remove the FN and place it on the right CTRL.

I'm talking about the "default" layouts of course.

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

18 Feb 2014, 15:20

Muirium wrote:Both those mods aren't uniform!
don't get it sorry. you mean 1.5u on the left and 1.25 on the right?

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Muirium
µ

18 Feb 2014, 15:46

iPad miscorrection, sorry. That's what I get for thumb typing on the bus. Both was But. Because the layout above it was a mix of 1.0, 1.25 and 1.5 unit mods.

The little one you did since then, however, is sweet. I want it with a smaller space bar, though. Perhaps I should please 7bit and grab a HONEY/FORTY after all.

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

18 Feb 2014, 15:54

oh ok. is it better to have the little gap next to the arrow cluster or uniform mods?

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bazh

18 Feb 2014, 16:00

mixed size mods is ok to me as long as it's common keycaps made in regular GB :/ actually I love 6x spacebar more than 6.25x but I only see Retro DSA has this size...

the F-row stick to the base block would make it so much easier to make a unibody housing


also, I love gaps 8-)

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ماء

18 Feb 2014, 16:45

Just For Fun :D :lol:
Image

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Ichigo87

18 Feb 2014, 17:32

This is what is on my mind since R5 started, i ordered keycaps to fit this layout and this should be my first DIY PCB.

A layered steel case with switch plate as top layer to keep a low profile would be great.

Image

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Muirium
µ

18 Feb 2014, 17:45

Nice alternates. That looks a solid board to me.

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

18 Feb 2014, 17:57

Ichigo87 wrote:This is what is on my mind since R5 started, i ordered keycaps to fit this layout and this should be my first DIY PCB.

A layered steel case with switch plate as top layer to keep a low profile would be great.

Image
that's more or less the Matt-2-ISO. the problem is that we have to take a decision on mods size, but my vote would go to 1.25, 1.25, 1.25, 6.25, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1

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Ichigo87

18 Feb 2014, 18:02

of course it is your design, i just played with spacebar from R5.

Your vote is clearly the wiser one.

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

18 Feb 2014, 18:05

are the stepped keys center stemmed?

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Muirium
µ

18 Feb 2014, 18:11

A basic rendition of the lefty numpad concept discussed earlier. Without a function row:
The Full µ.png
The Full µ.png (158.48 KiB) Viewed 6323 times
I already like it more than a standard full size keyboard. But I'm unsure what to do with the numpad's fifth row. A traditional numpad is bigger still. But I use the operators very seldom indeed.
Last edited by Muirium on 18 Feb 2014, 18:14, edited 1 time in total.

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

18 Feb 2014, 18:13

what do you think of a KMAC-mini layout?

Image

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Muirium
µ

18 Feb 2014, 18:18

The IBM XT style function column does balance it up a bit, actually. I've found those keys quite useful (as media controls) on my Soarer powered XT.

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Ichigo87

18 Feb 2014, 18:23

KMAC MINI is beautifull, with an ISO layout i am IN !

If i remembered well, SP is only off centered ? But like the GH60, it is possible to able both with a good pcb design.

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Muirium
µ

18 Feb 2014, 18:26

Any chance we can explore a little Alps / Matias in this GB? Or would that be just the kind of crazy talk to have me targeted by an angry robot army?

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matt3o
-[°_°]-

18 Feb 2014, 18:30

Muirium wrote:Any chance we can explore a little Alps / Matias in this GB? Or would that be just the kind of crazy talk to have me targeted by an angry robot army?
I would be totally in... if you can find me ALPS stabs reference material! I already have all the keycaps and I have to try the silent Matias switches

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Muirium
µ

18 Feb 2014, 19:01

Therein lies the rub. Perhaps I should try one with no stabs!

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skrsh3r

18 Feb 2014, 19:08

Mateo i got dwg file for kingsaver you can get stab placement dimensions from there, well at last some of them.
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