3 Keyboards controllers dying due to possible electrical interference?

[parsa_strife]

Hey guys I recently made this post pointing out my issue with my 2 Logitech G410 Keyboards.
They both started chattering in a time frame of 4-6 months and it was clearly a controller issue since it wasn't just 1 or 2 keys but multiple keys that did this. Also the more it was on the worse it'd get.

So I asked for advice on what other keyboard that is available here I could buy and out of the keyboards I mentioned everyone suggested the Cooler Master MasterKeys Pro L RGB. So I got one with MX Browns.

And now about after a week I see a few switches occasionally chattering. And again it's not just one key...
I've confirmed this with Elite Keyboard's Switch Hitter program.

I'm really lost guys and I have no idea if this is just a USB port issue (probably not), An issue with the mobo (probably not but the mobo might have started going bad after all this time with these problems?), PSU or just simply the bad, noisy and unclean power that we have here. Or maybe a combination of these stuff together.

Removed keycaps, tried cleaning. No change. So it must be the controller as it's not only 1 key and it's pretty random on this CM keyboard. Also when I shut down via Windows, when the PC is fully turned off when I press a key on my CM keyboard the lights turn on for the time that the key is pressed. I have to either turn off the PSU and press the power button multiple times so the remaining power would completely disappear and then this wouldn't happen anymore. OR I have to turn the PC back on, and turn it off before it tries to boot into Windows. What is the problem? Motherboard? I didn't have this mobo when my first Logitech keyboard went like this. But I did have the same PSU back then.Do I just need a new PSU? Or is the motherboard also affected now? Or do I need an active battery UPS to "clean up" the power that goes into my PSU? I really need help. I currently stopped using my CM keyboard in fear of it getting damaged to no return (if it already isn't...)

I think it might be worth mentioning that the Logitech keyboards had Ferrite Beads at the end of the cable that goes into the USB port while the CM keyboard does not. That might explain why the Logitech keyboards took longer (my first one took 4 months and the second one 6 months, while the CM keyboard only took a week) to go bad.

My system:
- Ryzen 3 1200 @4GHz
- Asus GTX 760 DF @Stock (the cooler can't even keep it cool at stock lol)
- Some cheap Silicon Power 1*8GB 2133MHz RAM @2666MHz CL16
- Asus Prime X370-Pro mobo
- Green GP580A-ES PSU (This brand is pretty reliable here in Iran from what I know, but this particular "ES" series is the cheapest one in their lineup)

I also tried running everything at stock. Loaded the defaults in bios and it still didn't help.

I'd really appreciate it if you guys could share your thoughts with me on this confusing situation and what I could possibly do to fix the problem.
I tried posting everywhere but haven't gotten any answer anywhere...

[Blaise170]

I don't understand Arabic but I'm pretty well versed in PSU design. I can say that it looks rather anemic and honestly I wouldn't trust it in my own system (granted I don't know what kind of options you have in Iran).



The heatsinks look like pieces of tinfoil and the PSU isn't even a proper 580W (it's rated for 500W max before you blow your 12V rails). Not that this is necessarily bad, but the line filtering looks almost non-existent (not many photos to document this, but basing my analysis on this one below).



So... It very well could be your PSU.

[Blaise170]

Oh now that I found a review on it, a little more to go on - yes it does have line filtering in the form of one X cap, two Y caps, and two coils, but the capacitor brands in this thing are mostly junk. I see CapXon, what appears to be G-Luxon, C.S Chhsi, and perhaps even Teapo (all terrible brands). There are a couple I couldn't quite figure out because the photos all conveniently left out the cap brands. The manufacturer also conveniently placed stickers on top of the capacitors with marketing which is incredibly stupid - not only will those stickers melt under the temperature requirements but if those capacitors do need to vent, the vents will be blocked by the goopy mess on top of it. I've also never seen 100% Taiwanese capacitors being considered a good thing - all of the good capacitors come out of Japan, not China, not Hong Kong, and certainly not Taiwan. CapXon is okay in certain applications, but as the primary? No way.

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=388

[parsa_strife]

I don't understand Arabic but I'm pretty well versed in PSU design. I can say that it looks rather anemic and honestly I wouldn't trust it in my own system (granted I don't know what kind of options you have in Iran).



The heatsinks look like pieces of tinfoil and the PSU isn't even a proper 580W (it's rated for 500W max before you blow your 12V rails). Not that this is necessarily bad, but the line filtering looks almost non-existent (not many photos to document this, but basing my analysis on this one below).



So... It very well could be your PSU.

Thanks for the reply! It's actually Persian, not Aarabic

Sorry I'm pretty noob in electrical stuff and don't know much so I'm kinda gonna bombard you with stupid questions feel free to not answer if they're too stupid
What exactly is line filtering? I'm assuming it filters noise and unwanted interference out to get a clean power? So do other decent PSUs have a good line filtering so I wouldn't need a UPS?
Will the chattering issue go away if the possible interference is gone? If not could my motherboard also be affected?
Also could this issue not be the fault of the PSU but a ground loop issue?
I'm just really worried that this issue might still be present even after swapping my PSU.

So I'll try changing my PSU ASAP, don't have many choices tho. I only really have 2 options:

1- Green GP700B-HP+ for $60 (sorry for the Arabic page But there are many pictures and also some specifications in English)
Also its 80 Plus certification

2- Cooler Master MasterWatt 650 for $80
And its 80 Plus certification

[parsa_strife]

Oh now that I found a review on it, a little more to go on - yes it does have line filtering in the form of one X cap, two Y caps, and two coils, but the capacitor brands in this thing are mostly junk. I see CapXon, what appears to be G-Luxon, C.S Chhsi, and perhaps even Teapo (all terrible brands). There are a couple I couldn't quite figure out because the photos all conveniently left out the cap brands. The manufacturer also conveniently placed stickers on top of the capacitors with marketing which is incredibly stupid - not only will those stickers melt under the temperature requirements but if those capacitors do need to vent, the vents will be blocked by the goopy mess on top of it. I've also never seen 100% Taiwanese capacitors being considered a good thing - all of the good capacitors come out of Japan, not China, not Hong Kong, and certainly not Taiwan. CapXon is okay in certain applications, but as the primary? No way.

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=388

From what I read from their website, GP700B-HP+ uses a mix of Nippon Chemi-Con and Rubycon caps.
And from some reviews, the MasterWatt 650 uses a mix of Teapo and Elite caps.
Seems like the GP700B-HP+ uses better caps? You judge idk

[parsa_strife]

Oh now that I found a review on it, a little more to go on - yes it does have line filtering in the form of one X cap, two Y caps, and two coils, but the capacitor brands in this thing are mostly junk. I see CapXon, what appears to be G-Luxon, C.S Chhsi, and perhaps even Teapo (all terrible brands). There are a couple I couldn't quite figure out because the photos all conveniently left out the cap brands. The manufacturer also conveniently placed stickers on top of the capacitors with marketing which is incredibly stupid - not only will those stickers melt under the temperature requirements but if those capacitors do need to vent, the vents will be blocked by the goopy mess on top of it. I've also never seen 100% Taiwanese capacitors being considered a good thing - all of the good capacitors come out of Japan, not China, not Hong Kong, and certainly not Taiwan. CapXon is okay in certain applications, but as the primary? No way.

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=388

From what I read from their website, GP700B-HP+ uses a mix of Nippon Chemi-Con and Rubycon caps.
And from some reviews, the MasterWatt 650 uses a mix of Teapo and Elite caps.
Seems like the GP700B-HP+ uses better caps? You judge idk

Hell no, Master Watt 650 uses 85°C Teapo and Elite caps while the cheaper higher capacity GP700B-HP+ uses 105°C Rubycon and Nippon Chemi-Con caps.
I think it's smarter to go with the cheaper yet better quality PSU here?

And omg this topic seems like a power supply topic now. I'm so sorry but to be clear this is all to solve my keyboard issues.

I really hope this will fix my keyboard issues. I don't want to go back to a rubber dome/membrane keyboard because my mechanical keyboards start chattering after a few weeks/months for mysterious reasons.

[Blaise170]

As is the case with everything in life, you typically get what you pay for, but there are always exceptions. The HP+ series looks really good from what I can see, it's 100% JP caps and has a much better fan than the one you currently have. Just to be clear, I have no idea if replacing your PSU is the answer to your problems, but if the 5V rails are out of spec like the 12V rail is, it wouldn't be all that surprising that your USB devices are also having issues (USB runs on 5V). Also, it's okay to discuss non-keyboard things here, this is offtopicthority.net after all.

[parsa_strife]

As is the case with everything in life, you typically get what you pay for, but there are always exceptions. The HP+ series looks really good from what I can see, it's 100% JP caps and has a much better fan than the one you currently have. Just to be clear, I have no idea if replacing your PSU is the answer to your problems, but if the 5V rails are out of spec like the 12V rail is, it wouldn't be all that surprising that your USB devices are also having issues (USB runs on 5V). Also, it's okay to discuss non-keyboard things here, this is offtopicthority.net after all.

The weird thing is I have no problem with any other USB devices of mine.
But I also don't have any other explanation on how anything else could cause the same problem on 3 keyboards.
Could it be a ground loop issue maybeee?

[parsa_strife]

Could it be a ground loop issue maybeee?

Apparently not:

Anything USB powered isnt grounded, there is no ground wire in USB cables.

[spongebob1981]

I'm not as electronics savy as blaise here, but I do have some background as a support tech with a large number of PCs. And before I entered the thread and read blaise's remarks, I came in thinking to tell you that you should check your PSU.

And, as he also told you: it's very hard to accurately diagnose the issue, so no guarantees here, but it is the best place to start to dig.
The good thing is that maybe you can borrow a PSU to test in your PC, before you go and buy a new one.

The other thing that could be messing around, in the same line of thought, are the power lines at your house. I used to have a PC that would hang randomly when connected to a certain outlet, but not on others! Perhaps you have a neighbor with some large motors plugged in the same line and they are introducing additional noise that your PSU can't succesfully filter out.

And finally, and this is a long shot: if the PSU turns out to be the cause of your issues, and you can't seem to find a proper filtered one in your market, perhaps you could modify the one you have to add some additional filtering on the +5v line? (blaise? opinions?)

Good luck and see ya!

[Blaise170]

Somehow I completely missed your comment here...

Thanks for the reply! It's actually Persian, not Aarabic

Sorry I'm pretty noob in electrical stuff and don't know much so I'm kinda gonna bombard you with stupid questions feel free to not answer if they're too stupid
What exactly is line filtering? I'm assuming it filters noise and unwanted interference out to get a clean power? So do other decent PSUs have a good line filtering so I wouldn't need a UPS?
Will the chattering issue go away if the possible interference is gone? If not could my motherboard also be affected?
Also could this issue not be the fault of the PSU but a ground loop issue?
I'm just really worried that this issue might still be present even after swapping my PSU.

So I'll try changing my PSU ASAP, don't have many choices tho. I only really have 2 options:

1- Green GP700B-HP+ for $60 (sorry for the Arabic page But there are many pictures and also some specifications in English)
Also its 80 Plus certification

2- Cooler Master MasterWatt 650 for $80
And its 80 Plus certification

Line filtering is pretty much what it says on the tin. It theoretically helps to remove RFI/EMI from the lines. It doesn't actually do much to "clean up" poor electrical though, which is what UPS units are for. I also can't say much about how clean the power is in Iran, but if your locale is prone to brownouts, a UPS might be a worthwhile investment, irrespective to the keyboard issue. I doubt it would be an issue with the ground, but it's something I wouldn't be able to rule out from an ocean away. And finally, it's always possible that you got the luck (or unluck) of the draw and managed to find three bad keyboards in a row.

P.S. If you are interested, I actually wrote a PSU guide a couple of years ago that used to get a lot of views. http://www.tomshardware.com/faq/id-2836 ... upply.html

P.S.S. If you do end up replacing your PSU, it might serve you well to buy a good PSU from another country and then using that one, international shipping from the US would only cost around $20 I think.

I'm not as electronics savy as blaise here, but I do have some background as a support tech with a large number of PCs. And before I entered the thread and read blaise's remarks, I came in thinking to tell you that you should check your PSU.

And, as he also told you: it's very hard to accurately diagnose the issue, so no guarantees here, but it is the best place to start to dig.
The good thing is that maybe you can borrow a PSU to test in your PC, before you go and buy a new one.

The other thing that could be messing around, in the same line of thought, are the power lines at your house. I used to have a PC that would hang randomly when connected to a certain outlet, but not on others! Perhaps you have a neighbor with some large motors plugged in the same line and they are introducing additional noise that your PSU can't succesfully filter out.

And finally, and this is a long shot: if the PSU turns out to be the cause of your issues, and you can't seem to find a proper filtered one in your market, perhaps you could modify the one you have to add some additional filtering on the +5v line? (blaise? opinions?)

Good luck and see ya!

If you can solder, it's certainly plausible but you would have to study the layout and/or schematics and make sure that you aren't going to blow it up the next time it turns on. I'm really no expert in electronics so I couldn't tell you how to do that, I just happen to be highly knowledgable in the basic functionality of computer power supplies.

http://www.tomshardware.com/community/p ... 414361.htm

[Wodan]

LOL yeah order something from the US in Iran...
Have you been reading the news lately?

[Blaise170]

LOL yeah order something from the US in Iran...
Have you been reading the news lately?

Of course I have - Iran is sanctioned but with licensing you can ship with USPS. DHL will usually carry it even without a license as long as you sign an indemnity waiver. In any case, it was an example.

[Wodan]

But ... how do you pay? Bitcoin?
German cigar shops offering cuban cigars were banned from Paypal due to the US sanctions.
Pretty sure the common credit cards and paypal are largely unavailable in Iran.

[parsa_strife]

Could it be a ground loop issue maybeee?

Apparently not:

Anything USB powered isnt grounded, there is no ground wire in USB cables.

So apparently it might be ground loop:

That's incorrect for all pcs that use an ATX power supply and laptops that use a power brick with a grounded plug. In both cases the ground wire from the mains is bonded to the negative/common/black DC wire and to the metal casing of the psu/case and to the outer shielding of all usb/hdmi/etc plugs. So in a USB cable there are two conductors that are bonded to the earth, common/negative lead and the outer shielding of the usb cable that is soldered to the usb plugs.

I'm not as electronics savy as blaise here, but I do have some background as a support tech with a large number of PCs. And before I entered the thread and read blaise's remarks, I came in thinking to tell you that you should check your PSU.

And, as he also told you: it's very hard to accurately diagnose the issue, so no guarantees here, but it is the best place to start to dig.
The good thing is that maybe you can borrow a PSU to test in your PC, before you go and buy a new one.

The other thing that could be messing around, in the same line of thought, are the power lines at your house. I used to have a PC that would hang randomly when connected to a certain outlet, but not on others! Perhaps you have a neighbor with some large motors plugged in the same line and they are introducing additional noise that your PSU can't succesfully filter out.

And finally, and this is a long shot: if the PSU turns out to be the cause of your issues, and you can't seem to find a proper filtered one in your market, perhaps you could modify the one you have to add some additional filtering on the +5v line? (blaise? opinions?)

Good luck and see ya!

I don't think I can borrow a PSU to test. Maybe I could borrow a UPS. Not sure.
But you say test... But how can I even test that? I have tested the Logitech Keyboard on other systems including a battery power laptop and it still had the problem. It might take weeks for the issue to get disappeared or maybe never?
Tho if what the warranty service dude told me is true. This issue got fixed on my "first" Logitech Keyboard without him doing anything after a few weeks of usage. (He uses it as a daily driver now)
So it might not be actually damaging it but interfering with it and making it register multiple keystrokes?

Yeah I know it's not easy to diagnose but there are problems... But I don't have all the budget in the world. And also there is no actual correct way of testing other than getting another new mechanical keyboard and see if it will start chattering that would also be a waste of money... And even if it still happened. I don't have the budget to get a UPS after I get a PSU.

Yeah the power line in our apartment is pretty messy and old... So I know it has issues...

That is totally out of question XD. I do not have any experience with soldering and electrical stuff. And I would not want to void 62 months of Warranty XD

Line filtering is pretty much what it says on the tin. It theoretically helps to remove RFI/EMI from the lines. It doesn't actually do much to "clean up" poor electrical though, which is what UPS units are for. I also can't say much about how clean the power is in Iran, but if your locale is prone to brownouts, a UPS might be a worthwhile investment, irrespective to the keyboard issue. I doubt it would be an issue with the ground, but it's something I wouldn't be able to rule out from an ocean away. And finally, it's always possible that you got the luck (or unluck) of the draw and managed to find three bad keyboards in a row.

So I might actually need an UPS even after a new PSU. Well that is so out of my budget XD I think I might be screwed.
It actually can't be a ground loop issue now that I think about it. Because I didn't have this case back then when my first Logitech keyboard got screwed.

P.S.S. If you do end up replacing your PSU, it might serve you well to buy a good PSU from another country and then using that one, international shipping from the US would only cost around $20 I think.

I don't think any store ships to Iran tho?
There are people who buy from overseas and ship to here and sell us but they cost 2.5 times the actual price so not worth it unless it's something that doesn't cost much and doesn't weigh much.

With licensing you can ship with USPS. DHL will usually carry it even without a license as long as you sign an indemnity waiver. In any case, it was an example.

Umm I didn't know about this. But I don't think it actually is possible to be honest. Someone would have found out if this actually was possbile. Sure they might be some special kind of shipping but it definitely won't cost only "$20".

But ... how do you pay? Bitcoin?
German cigar shops offering cuban cigars were banned from Paypal due to the US sanctions.
Pretty sure the common credit cards and paypal are largely unavailable in Iran.

And yeah payment is also an issue. No international credit cards available here.

[parsa_strife]

And finally, it's always possible that you got the luck (or unluck) of the draw and managed to find three bad keyboards in a row.

Oh man that would be such LUCK (or UNLUCK as you say).

But I kinda doubt it. For 2 reasons:
I haven't been able to find any chattering issue reports on any Romer-G keyboards online nor in the Warranty service.
And also the warranty service dude told me: This issue got fixed on my "first" Logitech Keyboard without him doing anything after a few weeks of usage. (He uses it as a daily driver now)

[parsa_strife]

Line filtering is pretty much what it says on the tin. It theoretically helps to remove RFI/EMI from the lines. It doesn't actually do much to "clean up" poor electrical though, which is what UPS units are for. I also can't say much about how clean the power is in Iran, but if your locale is prone to brownouts, a UPS might be a worthwhile investment, irrespective to the keyboard issue. I doubt it would be an issue with the ground, but it's something I wouldn't be able to rule out from an ocean away. And finally, it's always possible that you got the luck (or unluck) of the draw and managed to find three bad keyboards in a row.

Hey sorry to bother again!
I've been looking into Electrical Stabilizers and they seem to do exactly what an active UPS would do minus the battery! And they're a lot cheaper for a 1000W unit.
Will they do just fine instead of a UPS?

[parsa_strife]

Minor update:
I'm currently using my Cooler Master keyboard on my dad's laptop after I left my keyboard packed and unused for about 5 days.
I didn't really notice any chatter while typing normally this time. But initially it was doing lotsa chatters under 10ms if I tapped a key 10-20 times quickly or if I was "typing" faster (I can't type that fast but people do type that fast with multiple fingers at once, around 8 fingers in this "test", while I usually type with like 3-4 fingers at a time with about 50-60 wpm).
But after a while it seemed to get better. Now it hardly does any chatter below 10ms while doing the same as I did initially. But still does a few under 20ms and some below 30ms.
So it SEEMS like it is ACTUALLY some kind of electrical issue. And it SEEMS like it does get better when used on a system without that electrical issue. I hope my keyboard will stop chattering altogether after a while.
Also I'm hoping to fix the electrical issue by changing my PSU and getting an Electrical Stabilizer for the wall outlet that I plug my PC into ASAP.

[jwegman]

Question; is static electricity build-up a potential contributing factor? Perhaps the family Persian cat is rubbing up against his leg? Is it worth considering something like an ESD wrist (or ankle) strap so that he could ground himself?

[parsa_strife]

Question; is static electricity build-up a potential contributing factor? Perhaps the family Persian cat is rubbing up against his leg? Is it worth considering something like an ESD wrist (or ankle) strap so that he could ground himself?

Umm no. I don't think so.
Firstly and sadly we don't have any pets.
Secondly my CM keyboard now works just fine without any chatter in the exact same conditions (same desk, same monitor etc.) but connected to a battery powered laptop instead of my PC.

It might either be the shitty electricity in our apartment or my PSU or something that is connected to my PC (my mouse, headset etc.) or maybe a combination of those together.

[Blaise170]

I still think your issue probably lies in the electrical systems themselves. Either the lines in your apartment are bad (in which case a UPS or external line regulator is the solution) or it's your PSU that is bad. I'm going to guess it's probably the latter since the laptop is working fine. If it was the electrical, I'd think it would affect the laptop too.

[parsa_strife]

I still think your issue probably lies in the electrical systems themselves. Either the lines in your apartment are bad (in which case a UPS or external line regulator is the solution) or it's your PSU that is bad. I'm going to guess it's probably the latter since the laptop is working fine. If it was the electrical, I'd think it would affect the laptop too.

But the laptop was running on battery. It couldn't be affected by the electricity in the power lines.
Perhaps I could remove the battery of the laptop and connect it directly to a wall outlet and test for a while. If it doesn't get any worse after a week or so that means the power is probably fine here and it's either the PSU or something that is connected to the PC causing the issue.

There's one thing that is weird to me tho. And it even happens on laptop. I've said this before but when I shut down the computer and it's fully off, when I press keys on the keyboard the backlight turns on for the duration of holding the key down. That seems weird to me. Is that anything to worry about? Or just normal?


Edit: In case of the laptop, I noticed it takes way less time for this to stop! It takes only a few seconds (10-15) seconds for this to not happen anymore. But on my PC I think I once tested it even after 10-15 mins and it still did that. And yes I have made sure that the "provide power to USB ports in State S5 (system shutdown)" is turned off in the bios.

[Blaise170]

Ah I thought you had the laptop plugged in too. In any case, I think your idea should work, depends on how good the regulation of your laptop PSU is (they typically have ferrite cores which, at least theoretically, help too).

[parsa_strife]

I was talking about this with my friend today and he told me he once tried to charge his phone when he was here and it got really unusually hot. Which reminded us when he brought his laptop here and it got also unusually hot while idling and doing nothing as shown in task manager. (it was connected directly to the wall outlet without the battery inserted).
He said he have never had these issues at home.

My phone also does get pretty hot while charging with only a 5V/2A charger which also gets SUPER HOT. The charger gets hot to the extent that it kinda worried me before but nothing bad has happened to it so I thought it's fine.

I think the problem lies within the ultra shitty electricity we've got in our apartment. I'll try to find a decent Electrical Stabilizer.
I am not sure which one I should get. A relay voltage stabilizer which are also used in line-interactive UPS? Servo stabilizer? Or a voltage regulator which seems to be different but I'm not quite sure if I understand the difference.
I wish I could just get an online UPS which seems to be the best way to get a "clean" power but they are very expensive...