A Whole Lot of Layers

[Muirium]

I've been playing around with layouts for my first custom keyboard build. It's a little 60%. The HHKB's function layer is what inspired me, and I've gathered up several ideas for different layers since.

But before Matteo puts anything into metal, I should really ask about what is possible with a custom controller. I've got several function keys across my current design. Two are down at thumbs' reach by the space bar, while another two are at the sides in higher rows. So I should always be able to reach one (or more) of them quite easily.

This is currently what I've got:

Custom 60% Layout 5.1.png (317.8 KiB) Viewed 8301 times

A lot of layers! The symbols are the crazy things I'm used to on the Mac (like ⌥ Option instead of Alt) and there's two space bars as I doubt I can source a 5u or smaller cap. In fact I could be very wrong about row 1 as a whole, do feel free to educate me!

The flipped QWERTY layer is for single handed typing. I heard about someone doing this as a half sized hardware keyboard years ago, but a quick search doesn't find it. But I did find a good description of doing it in software at xkcd. The idea is you use symmetry to find your way around. Looks crazy but I've had success with some basic experiments.

As for the controller, I'd like to know:

• Are 5 layers (including the default) doable?
• Are 4 function keys okay?
• Can I make fancy logic for locking into a layer? I'm thinking about the numpad and single handed layers in particular.
• Can I change my mind later, and reprogram the controller when it comes to function keys? Example: say I wanted to change the function key above left shift into Control.

I'd like all the function keys, when pressed alone, to do the same thing: engage the primary function layer. It's the layers after that I'd like to get inventive with. Perhaps something like pressing two function keys and a number to select one to engage and lock, until I press two function keys again to get out of it?

This kind of internal state seems like a good fit for using LEDs to indicate what's going on, too.

[ماء]

is there a button turn on the PC or MAC,like button your picture top, side corner (esc/~`) usually

[ne0phyte]

I've been using the Mirrorboard layout for a while (I made an AutoHotkey version for windows).
It feels super natural and easy to use after a short while.

[matt3o]

• Are 5 layers (including the default) doable?
• Are 4 function keys okay?
• Can I make fancy logic for locking into a layer? I'm thinking about the numpad and single handed layers in particular.
• Can I change my mind later, and reprogram the controller when it comes to function keys? Example: say I wanted to change the function key above left shift into Control.

1) you can have up to 32 layers
2) you can have 32 FN keys, from an usability standpoint I dunno
3) There are a couple of options (tap, toggle, ...), but don't worry you can update your layout (and fn layer) at any time
4) yes, anytime, and you don't even need to open the keyboard to do that

Perhaps something like pressing two function keys and a number to select one to engage and lock, until I press two function keys again to get out of it?

There's a "layer toggle" function, but I never tried something like what you suggest.

[Muirium]

is there a button turn on the PC or MAC,like button your picture top, side corner (esc/~`) usually

It's Escape. Confusing, right? Apple used that symbol for the Escape key when I got my first Mac. Here it is in action:

Even they've given up since then! I just like the look of single symbols more than words. Even to fit "Esc", I'd have to use another font size which jumbles up my diagram.

We discussed power on keys in this thread. I usually just let my computers sleep, and pressing any key will wake them.

[Muirium]

1) you can have up to 32 layers
2) you can have 32 FN keys, from an usability standpoint I dunno
3) There are a couple of options (tap, toggle, ...), but don't worry you can update your layout (and fn layer) at any time
4) yes, anytime, and you don't even need to open the keyboard to do that

Perhaps something like pressing two function keys and a number to select one to engage and lock, until I press two function keys again to get out of it?

There's a "layer toggle" function, but I never tried something like what you suggest.

That's the stuff! Three or four function keys is plenty enough for me. I would go with just the central two, around the mini space bar, if I weren't so intrigued by HHKB style arrow navigation. The key above left shift is essentially to be decided. It's a prime spot, and I'm pleased to hear I can do whatever I like, whenever I want with it! One thing it won't be is cAPS lOCK on the primary layer.

The hard part remains the caps.

[Muirium]

I've been using the Mirrorboard layout for a while (I made an AutoHotkey version for windows).
It feels super natural and easy to use after a short while.

Symmetry sure is powerful. I'm keen to give it a try in hardware.

[suka]

Symmetry sure is powerful. I'm keen to give it a try in hardware.

How true - bold enough to try out completely custom keyboards, and yet you decided to keep the conventional asymmetric stagger Sorry to repeat myself, but I just don't get it...

But otherwise these later designs look quite promising, very clean and compact layout.

[matt3o]

I find symmetry just for the sake of it completely useless, but in the realm of custom keyboards you can do whatever you want

[Muirium]

Well, it is my first. I'd quite like to try a matrix layout later on. But I need to devise an appropriate layout for a perfect grid.

Symmetric stagger also looks appealing. But I think I'd just buy a μTRON rather than try to build my own!

[Muirium]

Symmetry sure is powerful. I'm keen to give it a try in hardware.

How true - bold enough to try out completely custom keyboards, and yet you decided to keep the conventional asymmetric stagger Sorry to repeat myself, but I just don't get it...

But otherwise these later designs look quite promising, very clean and compact layout.

Thanks. I'm pretty thrilled to be on the way to building a little something like this.

You're doing sterling work exploring ergo keyboards. I am literally a beginner, but I may explore that direction myself, eventually. The place I could most use a compact, non traditional keyboard is with my iPad. I'm forever writing on it these days, for convenience's sake while travelling, and there's not much less ergo than on screen typing.

I'm keen to see where custom keyboards go with Bluetooth. I think there's another world of ergonomic puzzles and opportunities out there, where we weren't as busy with computers before.

[Grond]

Looking forward to your experiments with bluetooth – there's no such thing as a compact mechanical bluetooth keyboard on the market nowadays.

[Muirium]

Exactly. Even full size mechanicals are very seldom Bluetooth. But fortunately, it's getting easier for us to make our own; or do conversions of course.

I think I'll try first Bluetooth controller in a Model M! Not quite the most ideal iPad keyboard, but a fine start.

[Grond]

Well you sure find a lot of free space inside a Model M!
My main concerns would be:
- swapping battery (kind of a hassle to unscrew the whole case every time);
- lack of "on/off" and "connect" buttons usually found on bluetooth devices.
I would also expect a old keyboard to suck a lot of power, but this may just be prejudice.

[Muirium]

Yeah, it's a whole other project. And I haven't got the Model M yet!

My understanding is that if I swap out the Model M's controller, figure out the membrane's matrix, and install my own controller, it shouldn't take any more power than a little Cherry MX board. With all the room in there, I could do a Matias and install a lot of battery power. I'd like to do the USB / Bluetooth dual mode controller trick, where the keyboard can run from a wire, too, and charges by it. No need to rummage around inside to swap out batteries that way.

Pairing is the last step. My Apple Bluetooth keyboard just has a single power button; you hold it until the (normally hidden) status light flashes, which puts the keyboard into discoverable mode for connecting to new hosts. The keyboard wakes right up whenever you press keys anyway, so it doesn't need switched on otherwise. My one complaint with its Bluetooth (quite aside from its keys…) is that it can only pair with up to four hosts, apparently. I seem to exceed that limit now, annoying!

Logitech keyboards can maintain connections with several hosts and you can swap among them right from the keyboard. I think that would be a neat trick to try, too. It'll need a layer!

[hasu]

Some Ideas.

Thumb Fn keys are nice, other fingers can move freely enough even while pressing Fn with thumb. Thumb keys are precious estate to be squeeze out its potential. I think you can handle 4 layers with two thumb Fn keys, like this.
Layer 1: pressing left FN
Layer 2: pressing right FN
Layer 3: pressing left FN then right
Layer 4: pressing right FN then left


And there is another idea I want to introduce. With this dual-role trick you can place Fn key on non-dedicated normal key(even on space!) without losing its original funciton. I usually place Fn key on ';' to use hjkl cursor layer with this trick. This is too tricky to recommend to everyone but it is worth giving it a try at least.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41685.0

[Muirium]

That is sneaky! We might as well make good use of rollover.

The single handed keyboard I read about some years ago – the inspiration for my flipped layer – used space as a function key: F = F and Space + F = J.

The more cunning the layers, the more useful LEDs are beneath the keys. I think they would make a great feedback system when learning how to use this kind of keyboard.

[hasu]

Matias half-qwerty keyboard? http://half-qwerty.com/
This is really very interesting idea. I also implemented half-qwerty layer on my keyboard and had used for some months.
I was not a serious user of it but it was good for lazy web browsing with having a beer...

[Muirium]

Yes, that's the one. For some reason, I remember a version which was physically only the left side. But this was years ago. Looks a deviously designed controller. It had better be: $595 USD.

[Muirium]

I had to redesign, as Matteo's sweet thin layered case actually requires a long enough space bar to put the Teensy under! Glad he reminded me.

So, reworking row 1 for a 6u space bar, I could either jam in the function keys and the rest I had before, all at 1u; or accept that there's no way to keep them all within thumbs' reach and drop the function keys. I did the latter. But look at the dark grey keys in the secondary layer.

Custom 60% Layout 6.png (309.22 KiB) Viewed 8064 times

Hasu's suggestion got me thinking. How about non-dedicated embedded function keys? I like ESDF for arrows, so, staying on home row, I could use A+D for down etc. and the same for ;+IJKL on the right. Matias' idea for the space bar in mirrored typing mode is definitely worth a shot. What I'm losing in keys, I'm compensating for in sneakiness.

Besides, it's all for this:

[JBert]

Thumb Fn keys are nice, other fingers can move freely enough even while pressing Fn with thumb.
...

And there is another idea I want to introduce. With this dual-role trick you can place Fn key on non-dedicated normal key(even on space!) without losing its original funciton. I usually place Fn key on ';' to use hjkl cursor layer with this trick.

Heh, I use palm-Fn-keys. And since my model F XT only has the right "Alt" key available for Fn, I had to use Alt + Space as AltGr. It works, but it takes some time to adjust and even then you have to stop and think which keys you have to press.

[hasu]

Yeah, palm key for Fn/Mod is also my favorite, combination of pinky and palm key feels awkward a bit but not big problem. I sometime miss them on HHKB...
Ah, I found XT has right "Alt" key at very nice position to be depressed with palm unlike AT keyboards!

[matt3o]

This would be your plate with 6.25 spacebar, though. All mods to the right are 1.25. Should be easy enough to source all the caps this way. Actually I'd probably make all the mods to the left 1.25 as well.

muirium.png (4.55 KiB) Viewed 8027 times

note: stabs for spacebar are not yet ready

[JBert]

Ah, I found XT has right "Alt" key at very nice position to be depressed with palm unlike AT keyboards!

Indeed. On normal Cherry keyboards, I noticed that a 1.25 wide Menu key is at the same nice position, so I modded my G80-3000s to have a similar Fn layout.

[Muirium]

Now that I have a sensible layout ready for production, it's time to go crazy with Plan B. What better than a wild, unstaggered matrix? I've also pushed harder for symmetry.

Behold!

Custom 60% Matrix 1.1.png (332.43 KiB) Viewed 7954 times

The advantage of a custom controller and a matrix layout (with blank caps) is that I can just move the home row around if I find this kind of split layout impractical. Note the split space bar (each half is 2u, and they're separated by another 2u function key, which makes the three the only stabilised keys on the board) and the To Be Decided keys dead centre. This is still a work in progress. But for a wild child, I kinda like it!

[dondy]

i would increase the size of (1,1) to (1,4) and (14,1) to (14,4) by 0.5 and add that width (+0.5*2) to the space bars. though that would mess up the layout a little it would look more comfortable to me.

also, i would try to merge layers as far as possible instead of having f.e. the arrow keys mirrored in 2 layers (that's a awful lot of redundancy). additionally, for the one handed layout i'd use a operating system software solution rather than having it as part of the layout.

it could be explored if having wasd-type arrow keys or hjkl-type arrow keys in a layer (hjkl would maybe allow to have function keys, media crap-keys and arrow keys on the same layer).

just a little output from me

[Muirium]

Thanks for the suggestions. I pick up all my best ideas from other people. As do we all!

I'm trying to stay within the 15x5u dimensions of my main plate. That way I have one case that fits both*. The layers are all highly speculative: they are the thing I can change any time in the future with ease. What I'm really after is the physical layout in which they are contained.

*Not that I expect plate swapping to be a simple matter. But laser time is nigh!