This isn't a review as much as a "first impressions" report. I have swapped out my Filco for this Topre to get some typing time on it. I am typing this post on it right now.
I don't think I need to rehash all the superlatives that RealForce boards almost unanimously receive by their devotees. Let's just assume that I don't dispute any of that. Instead, for now, I'll just report on what surprised me a little about it.
First of all, the row profiles are unusual to my eye, though I'm sure they make some kind of ergonomic sense. The function row looks further away than usual, probably due to how low they sit, almost as if trying to hide from view behind the towering number row keys. Then the bottom row, the "thumbing" row, is very low compared to the veritable cliffs of the row 4 keys. I'm also not used to the angle of the spacebar, which puts a disconcerting "edge" right under my thumb knuckles. But hey, at least the shift keys have a matching row 4 profile.
The other thing that sort of surprises me is the fact that all the row 3 keys feel like deep dish keys. In general, the spherical depression on the tops of all the keys is extremely pronounced. It isn't the soft, gentle bowl of Signature Plastics SA-family keycaps. It is a deep divit with prounced inner "walls" and a sharp edge that just dares your fingers to even think about sliding off of them. This doesn't seem to match the photos I see of this or the 104UG where they keycaps seem to have more subtle top curvature, like you see on the Alt key below (most of the keys on mine don't share its gentler spherical top contour).
It will be interesting to compare a hybrid Topre-clone Noppoo equipped with Round 5a SA caps to this RealForce in terms of the overall feel of the typing experience. So far I do like this RealForce, but the feel is still so alien to me that I can't yet say I prefer it to my MX boards.
Topre RealForce 104UK "Hi-Pro"
-
002
- Topre Enthusiast
- Location: Australia
- Main keyboard: Realforce & Libertouch
- Main mouse: Logitech G Pro Wireless
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: 0002
Nice little write-up. Surprised to see you got a Realforce after (IIRC) a pretty lukewarm opinion of them before 
Interesting note on how aggressively dished they are. I found this to be the case too and I assumed that SA caps would be the same. This uncompromising design might be the reason these HiPro boards so often pop up Yahoo Auctions. HiPro seems to be *next* level of "love it or hate it" -- a step up from the Topre switch in general.
Interesting note on how aggressively dished they are. I found this to be the case too and I assumed that SA caps would be the same. This uncompromising design might be the reason these HiPro boards so often pop up Yahoo Auctions. HiPro seems to be *next* level of "love it or hate it" -- a step up from the Topre switch in general.
-
zslane
- Location: Los Angeles, California, USA
- Main keyboard: RealForce RGB
- Main mouse: Basic Microsoft USB mouse
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: -
My feelings towards any keyboard (not just RealForce boards) with cylindrical keycaps and a tenkeyless layout is decidedly lukewarm, if not outright chilly. What sets this Hi-Pro keyboard apart from all the other RealForce boards is its spherical keycaps, appealing color scheme, and full ANSI layout. This is a keyboard I can (potentially) get enthusiastic about.
Two things ultimately led me to give it a try: (1) intense curiosity towards Topre switches, particularly in their reportedly finest form, and (2) a mounting impatience to get my fingers on some high profile, sculpted, spherical keycaps. The 104UK allowed me to kill two birds with one stone, as it were.
This experience has served to really make me wonder now what Round 5/5a sphericals feel like on a keyboard with hybrid Topre switches. Hence my comment about the Noppoo (the NovaTouch is a non-starter owing to its TKL form factor).
Two things ultimately led me to give it a try: (1) intense curiosity towards Topre switches, particularly in their reportedly finest form, and (2) a mounting impatience to get my fingers on some high profile, sculpted, spherical keycaps. The 104UK allowed me to kill two birds with one stone, as it were.
This experience has served to really make me wonder now what Round 5/5a sphericals feel like on a keyboard with hybrid Topre switches. Hence my comment about the Noppoo (the NovaTouch is a non-starter owing to its TKL form factor).
-
Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
And the Noppoo is a non-starter on account of its inherent unbearable shittiness!
Remember your perspective. There'll be a fullsize NovaTouch (or some Topre blessed (or even branded!) equivalent) before your Round 5 order ships. They developed those switches for a purpose. The nightmare you're trying to avoid — a strong preference for Topre blooming by the time a whole load of Round 5 caps shows up at your door — won't be a problem if you get a "hybrid" board by then.
I don't consider the NovaTouch to be a hybrid. Even if that's CM's corprospeak on the box. The NovaTouch is just MX mount Topre. Or, as my fingers like to tell me: the natural evolution of MX. They're a hell of an upgrade for all these MX caps of mine!
As for the HiPro: how are you liking the switch weight? Tall caps really do lighten a switch. I like SA on my 45g NovaTouch quite a bit. So my 55g Realforce is always quite a surprise when I switch to it. I've found I'm against the grain among Topre users and prefer them light. Tall caps are therefore no problem for me. The lighter the feel, the better!
I can't quite tell from your pictures, but perhaps all of the home keys are deep dish. Rather than the whole home row, which would be pointless, it looks like they've deep dished ASDF and JKL. Notably *not* GH. But I really want to grab the HiPro through my screen and look for myself! Deep dishing several adjacent keys like that was a trick IBM liked to play on "data entry" layout beam springs.
Hmm… data entry. Is that why you think you need a numpad? Bopping in numerics all day?
The HiPro bottom row does look a bit isolated from the rest. I only briefly tried a HiPro at HaaTa's keyboard meet at GitHub HQ. That struck me there, too. SA actually manages that better. Row 3 isn't so much shorter than row 4. (How could I walk away from a HiPro without being damn sure of my observations, you ask? You should have seen that meeting. There was a DataHand and a Space Cadet Keyboard just to mention a few!)
Speaking of row terminology: those names are SP specific. Cherry used something else (GMK inherited that different terminology) and we don't know what Topre calls them, unless 002 can clue us.
SA doesn't get everything right, though. The dishing that you like is actually very shallow compared to the classics. Even the HiPro is on the flat side, versus Honeywell caps (same shape as on the Space Cadet):
http://deskthority.net/post125355.html#p125355
And IBM's beam spring is my all time favourite profile, as well as switch feel:
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/hi-p ... bt%20hipro
By the way, be sure to check that last link. Matteo has something special in the works. And it's based on beam spring caps I sent him for scanning.
Anyway, of all these tall sphericals, I like the shape of SA the least. It's not bad, and the row sculpting is actually very good. But it's inferior to beam spring, both in sheer looks and that vintage spherical feel. Honeywells are better shaped too, but lack row sculpting. They're for mounting on tilted sliders.
And, lastly about caps: low function rows aren't just a HiPro thing. Round 4 SPH was flat row 3 up there too:
One of DT's most infamous pictures! I used that one a whole lot!
Row 3 isn't bad up there, but it's not as right as row 1 (let alone row 0). So I nagged 7bit and got my way in Round 5. But forgot the need for function keys in the REPAIR kit for my blue Round 4s. Doh…
Remember your perspective. There'll be a fullsize NovaTouch (or some Topre blessed (or even branded!) equivalent) before your Round 5 order ships. They developed those switches for a purpose. The nightmare you're trying to avoid — a strong preference for Topre blooming by the time a whole load of Round 5 caps shows up at your door — won't be a problem if you get a "hybrid" board by then.
I don't consider the NovaTouch to be a hybrid. Even if that's CM's corprospeak on the box. The NovaTouch is just MX mount Topre. Or, as my fingers like to tell me: the natural evolution of MX. They're a hell of an upgrade for all these MX caps of mine!
As for the HiPro: how are you liking the switch weight? Tall caps really do lighten a switch. I like SA on my 45g NovaTouch quite a bit. So my 55g Realforce is always quite a surprise when I switch to it. I've found I'm against the grain among Topre users and prefer them light. Tall caps are therefore no problem for me. The lighter the feel, the better!
I can't quite tell from your pictures, but perhaps all of the home keys are deep dish. Rather than the whole home row, which would be pointless, it looks like they've deep dished ASDF and JKL. Notably *not* GH. But I really want to grab the HiPro through my screen and look for myself! Deep dishing several adjacent keys like that was a trick IBM liked to play on "data entry" layout beam springs.
Hmm… data entry. Is that why you think you need a numpad? Bopping in numerics all day?
The HiPro bottom row does look a bit isolated from the rest. I only briefly tried a HiPro at HaaTa's keyboard meet at GitHub HQ. That struck me there, too. SA actually manages that better. Row 3 isn't so much shorter than row 4. (How could I walk away from a HiPro without being damn sure of my observations, you ask? You should have seen that meeting. There was a DataHand and a Space Cadet Keyboard just to mention a few!)
Speaking of row terminology: those names are SP specific. Cherry used something else (GMK inherited that different terminology) and we don't know what Topre calls them, unless 002 can clue us.
SA doesn't get everything right, though. The dishing that you like is actually very shallow compared to the classics. Even the HiPro is on the flat side, versus Honeywell caps (same shape as on the Space Cadet):
http://deskthority.net/post125355.html#p125355
And IBM's beam spring is my all time favourite profile, as well as switch feel:
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/hi-p ... bt%20hipro
By the way, be sure to check that last link. Matteo has something special in the works. And it's based on beam spring caps I sent him for scanning.
Anyway, of all these tall sphericals, I like the shape of SA the least. It's not bad, and the row sculpting is actually very good. But it's inferior to beam spring, both in sheer looks and that vintage spherical feel. Honeywells are better shaped too, but lack row sculpting. They're for mounting on tilted sliders.
And, lastly about caps: low function rows aren't just a HiPro thing. Round 4 SPH was flat row 3 up there too:
One of DT's most infamous pictures! I used that one a whole lot!
Row 3 isn't bad up there, but it's not as right as row 1 (let alone row 0). So I nagged 7bit and got my way in Round 5. But forgot the need for function keys in the REPAIR kit for my blue Round 4s. Doh…
-
Hypersphere
- Location: USA
- Main keyboard: Silenced & Lubed HHKB (Black)
- Main mouse: Logitech G403
- Favorite switch: Topre 45/55g Silenced; Various Alps; IBM Model F
- DT Pro Member: 0038
@zslane: Thanks for your report on the Topre RF 104UK. I've not yet tried a HiPro, but I would venture to say that you might not want to form an opinion of all Topre switches based on impressions gained from the 104UK. There are several parameters here, including all-45g vs all-55g vs 30-45-55g variable, tall profile vs Topre profile, spherical tops vs cylindrical tops, and silenced vs unsilenced Topre. Moreover, there is standard Topre vs the Novatouch with mx stems and Noppoo knock-offs. And of course there is the PFU HHKB Pro 2, which has case-mounted switches instead of plate-mounted switches.
My own preference is to favor most Topre over any Cherry mx. My current favorite is silenced 55g in a RF87UB55, although my favorite form factor in a keyboard is 60%, so I use my HHKB Pro 2 most of the time.
While I very much like the look of your 104UK board for its colors, profile, and spherical tops, I anticipate that I will prefer typing on my silenced RF87UB55 with its standard Topre profile and cylindrical tops. But I must try out a HiPro to be sure!
My own preference is to favor most Topre over any Cherry mx. My current favorite is silenced 55g in a RF87UB55, although my favorite form factor in a keyboard is 60%, so I use my HHKB Pro 2 most of the time.
While I very much like the look of your 104UK board for its colors, profile, and spherical tops, I anticipate that I will prefer typing on my silenced RF87UB55 with its standard Topre profile and cylindrical tops. But I must try out a HiPro to be sure!
-
zslane
- Location: Los Angeles, California, USA
- Main keyboard: RealForce RGB
- Main mouse: Basic Microsoft USB mouse
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: -
There's no denying that vintage caps are the best caps when it comes to spherical contours. I like deep dishing in general, and it isn't the deepness of SDF and JKL on this Hi-Pro that feels strange (thank you for that observation, Muirium, those six keys are indeed different from all the rest), it is the sharpness of the top-to-side transition, or "crease" if you will that feels so unexpected on my fingers. For instance, whenever I use the Delete key, I don't typically tap it in the center, rather I tend to hit it on its outer edge, and so I really feel the sharp crease of it. As for the spacebar edge problem, I solved that by simply turning it around.
The switch weight is difficult for me to assess. I think my fingers are still getting used to the tallness of the keys and the subtle resistance of the dome. Keep in mind that I am used to 45g MX reds with flat DSA keycaps. This Hi-Pro may provide a 45g resistance as well, but the domes don't quite make it feel that way. Topre switches truly make the "tactile switch" experience notably different from linears, as opposed to MX browns which feel like reds with a minor manufacturing flaw inside somewhere. In a sense, I am not just acclimating myself to Topre, I am acclimating myself to the whole notion of tactile switches. Like you, Muirium, I prefer a light switch resistance, though I am realizing that I have a tendency to touch type with a bit of aggression in my typing strokes which leads to a lot of bottoming out. As such, I think 45g is the minimum resistance I would be comfortable with.
As for the numpad, while I don't use it a lot, I use it enough while programming, filling out spreadsheets, and other data entry tasks that I would find it supremely frustrating if it were not there. And apart from the corner of my desk at work where my iPad rests (photo in another thread), I do not suffer from a lack of space for full-size keyboards in front of my monitor(s). I have no need or desire for the TKL form factor.
Lastly, I'll talk about the sound. I like the thock of the Topres, but I also like the shick of MX linears with ABS keys and the shuck of MX linears with PBT keys. When I started down this mechanical keyboard road I had two sounds in my mind: thock and shick. MX reds provide the latter quite nicely, and the Topres famously provide the former. Maybe I'm destined to love both kinds of switches!
The switch weight is difficult for me to assess. I think my fingers are still getting used to the tallness of the keys and the subtle resistance of the dome. Keep in mind that I am used to 45g MX reds with flat DSA keycaps. This Hi-Pro may provide a 45g resistance as well, but the domes don't quite make it feel that way. Topre switches truly make the "tactile switch" experience notably different from linears, as opposed to MX browns which feel like reds with a minor manufacturing flaw inside somewhere. In a sense, I am not just acclimating myself to Topre, I am acclimating myself to the whole notion of tactile switches. Like you, Muirium, I prefer a light switch resistance, though I am realizing that I have a tendency to touch type with a bit of aggression in my typing strokes which leads to a lot of bottoming out. As such, I think 45g is the minimum resistance I would be comfortable with.
As for the numpad, while I don't use it a lot, I use it enough while programming, filling out spreadsheets, and other data entry tasks that I would find it supremely frustrating if it were not there. And apart from the corner of my desk at work where my iPad rests (photo in another thread), I do not suffer from a lack of space for full-size keyboards in front of my monitor(s). I have no need or desire for the TKL form factor.
Lastly, I'll talk about the sound. I like the thock of the Topres, but I also like the shick of MX linears with ABS keys and the shuck of MX linears with PBT keys. When I started down this mechanical keyboard road I had two sounds in my mind: thock and shick. MX reds provide the latter quite nicely, and the Topres famously provide the former. Maybe I'm destined to love both kinds of switches!
-
Hypersphere
- Location: USA
- Main keyboard: Silenced & Lubed HHKB (Black)
- Main mouse: Logitech G403
- Favorite switch: Topre 45/55g Silenced; Various Alps; IBM Model F
- DT Pro Member: 0038
How would you describe the sound of an aggressively placed stone in Go?
-
zslane
- Location: Los Angeles, California, USA
- Main keyboard: RealForce RGB
- Main mouse: Basic Microsoft USB mouse
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: -
Depends entirely on the size and material of stone, and the thickness, style, and type of wood of the board. I will say this, it never sounds like it does in Hikaro No Go.
-
zslane
- Location: Los Angeles, California, USA
- Main keyboard: RealForce RGB
- Main mouse: Basic Microsoft USB mouse
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: -
Yes, and if it is properly silenced (by your discriminating standards, Mu), then when that day comes I will be among the first in line to get one. Until then I will simply play with what is available.Muirium wrote: ↑There'll be a fullsize NovaTouch (or some Topre blessed (or even branded!) equivalent) before your Round 5a order ships.
Along a similar vein, I am probably going to try and pick up a set of pre-owned SA caps--any set of SA caps--so I can denude the painful anticipation building within me for my Round 5a kits. They won't be CADET or HONEY, but they will at least give my fingers something to dance with (on my MX boards) in the mean time.
-
zslane
- Location: Los Angeles, California, USA
- Main keyboard: RealForce RGB
- Main mouse: Basic Microsoft USB mouse
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: -
But I thought that's what "hybrid" meant in this context: a Topre switch that takes MX keycaps. That's how I've been using the term all this time.Muirium wrote: ↑I don't consider the NovaTouch to be a hybrid. Even if that's CM's corprospeak on the box. The NovaTouch is just MX mount Topre.
-
_PixelNinja
- Main keyboard: RAMA M60-A
- Main mouse: LOGITECH G102 White
- Favorite switch: C=Q/V=ε(A/t)
- DT Pro Member: -
That's how I understand it too.
-
Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Hybrid is a douchey term that CM is using in their promo materials just so they don't have to mention Topre.
There's nothing hybrid about these switches. They're Topre, with an MX mount on the slider. We've been here before. Did SMK ever call their many slider versions "hybrid switches"?
http://deskthority.net/wiki/SMK_second_generation
No. They didn't need to. They weren't bullshitting around the fact they were reselling someone else's property!
(Also: Don't think I didn't spot that Arial in your HiPro vid, Zslane! Despicable!)
There's nothing hybrid about these switches. They're Topre, with an MX mount on the slider. We've been here before. Did SMK ever call their many slider versions "hybrid switches"?
http://deskthority.net/wiki/SMK_second_generation
No. They didn't need to. They weren't bullshitting around the fact they were reselling someone else's property!
(Also: Don't think I didn't spot that Arial in your HiPro vid, Zslane! Despicable!)
-
zslane
- Location: Los Angeles, California, USA
- Main keyboard: RealForce RGB
- Main mouse: Basic Microsoft USB mouse
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: -
Okay, then what abbreviated term should we use? "Topre|MX"? "MX-on-Topre"? I'm not going to type "Topre with an MX mount on the slider" every time I want to refer to them.
Arial? You mean in the title text? Blame iMovie (on the iPad). I don't get to change the font.
Arial? You mean in the title text? Blame iMovie (on the iPad). I don't get to change the font.
-
Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
I just call them what they are: Topre. And if I were in CM's shoes, I would have requested Topre license the name for marketing as well as the physical technology. The whole point of the NovaTouch is to be the miracle keyboard with Topre switches that take MX caps. But instead they screwed up and called them something daft, that sounds like they've something to hide.
What are these switches?
Oh, uh, "hybrid."
Hybrid what?
Dude. Hybrid!
Shit name. They're Topre.
What are these switches?
Oh, uh, "hybrid."
Hybrid what?
Dude. Hybrid!
Shit name. They're Topre.
-
Hypersphere
- Location: USA
- Main keyboard: Silenced & Lubed HHKB (Black)
- Main mouse: Logitech G403
- Favorite switch: Topre 45/55g Silenced; Various Alps; IBM Model F
- DT Pro Member: 0038
We could call it a "graft". The double meaning of this term might be apt. 
@Mu: Could you please give us a definition and/or some examples of what you mean by "hybrid"? I infer from some of what you have said that in order for a keyboard switch to be considered a hybrid, there would have to be a mixture of some kind of the actual switching technology rather than a change in the keycap mount. So, for example, if under the keycap mount we have a rubber dome and conical spring that together constitute a capacitive switching mechanism and if this switching unit was manufactured by Topre, then it would be a Topre switch.
Furthermore, if the mount of such a switch were changed to Alps or Cherry, the switch itself would still be Topre. (?)
And if such a switch were made by Noppoo, what would it be? A Noppoo knockoff of a Topre switch?
Thanks for helping us out with this terminology.
@Mu: Could you please give us a definition and/or some examples of what you mean by "hybrid"? I infer from some of what you have said that in order for a keyboard switch to be considered a hybrid, there would have to be a mixture of some kind of the actual switching technology rather than a change in the keycap mount. So, for example, if under the keycap mount we have a rubber dome and conical spring that together constitute a capacitive switching mechanism and if this switching unit was manufactured by Topre, then it would be a Topre switch.
Furthermore, if the mount of such a switch were changed to Alps or Cherry, the switch itself would still be Topre. (?)
And if such a switch were made by Noppoo, what would it be? A Noppoo knockoff of a Topre switch?
Thanks for helping us out with this terminology.
-
Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Yeah, hybrid indicates something deeper to me. You don't become a deer by putting on a pair of antlers.
The only MX "DNA" in a NovaTouch's switch is in the cap mount. And those are quite arbitrary.
Spoiler:
That's my opinion, yes. Just like how both an SMK with an Alps mount, and an SMK with an MX mount are still SMKs.Hypersphere wrote: ↑If the mount of such a switch were changed to Alps or Cherry, the switch itself would still be Topre. (?)
Exactly.Hypersphere wrote: ↑And if such a switch were made by Noppoo, what would it be? A Noppoo knockoff of a Topre switch?
Somehow, I doubt I am! But it all seems clear to me, if no one else…Hypersphere wrote: ↑Thanks for helping us out with this terminology.
-
zslane
- Location: Los Angeles, California, USA
- Main keyboard: RealForce RGB
- Main mouse: Basic Microsoft USB mouse
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: -
I completely understand Muirium's logic, and I certainly don't reject it. I just want a two-word nickname for Topre switches that accept MX keycaps, that's all. I invite Muirium to provide us with one he finds acceptable.
-
Hypersphere
- Location: USA
- Main keyboard: Silenced & Lubed HHKB (Black)
- Main mouse: Logitech G403
- Favorite switch: Topre 45/55g Silenced; Various Alps; IBM Model F
- DT Pro Member: 0038
One word: combine Topre and Cherry to get "Topey".
According to the online Urban Dictionary, "Topey" is defined as "The act of riding a friend like a horse while screaming "TOPEY TOPEY TOPEY." Usually performed in a pool or body of water."
It sorta fits.
According to the online Urban Dictionary, "Topey" is defined as "The act of riding a friend like a horse while screaming "TOPEY TOPEY TOPEY." Usually performed in a pool or body of water."
It sorta fits.
-
Hypersphere
- Location: USA
- Main keyboard: Silenced & Lubed HHKB (Black)
- Main mouse: Logitech G403
- Favorite switch: Topre 45/55g Silenced; Various Alps; IBM Model F
- DT Pro Member: 0038
Yeah, I agree!Muirium wrote: ↑Ugh.
-
Hypersphere
- Location: USA
- Main keyboard: Silenced & Lubed HHKB (Black)
- Main mouse: Logitech G403
- Favorite switch: Topre 45/55g Silenced; Various Alps; IBM Model F
- DT Pro Member: 0038
-
Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Again with the filthy hybridising.
There is none of MX's characteristics in these switches. And to lose a word, you've lost all meaning. If someone hears a board comes in "Topre/MX", they're perfectly right to misread that as "it comes in both!" Like Leopold's nominal FC660.
Apt. As, like "hybrid" MX switches, it does not exist.
There is none of MX's characteristics in these switches. And to lose a word, you've lost all meaning. If someone hears a board comes in "Topre/MX", they're perfectly right to misread that as "it comes in both!" Like Leopold's nominal FC660.
Apt. As, like "hybrid" MX switches, it does not exist.