KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards

[Hypersphere]

@czarek: Could you provide some additional detail about how you got your V60MTS to work with an aluminum case? Have they updated the plate and PCB since the earlier models? On mine, only one screw can be used with an aluminum case. (AFAIK, the Cherry mx versions of the V60 work okay with an aluminum case, but the Matias-switch models did not). Thanks.

Regarding the switches, recently I have tested the MTS-C and MTS-Q switches alongside boards with Monterey blues, white Alps, and brown/orange Alps. I would now have to say that the Matias switches are not on the same level as these. However, I haven't tried them in an aluminum case, which might improve the sound somewhat if not the feel.

[czarek]

@czarek: How did you get your V60MTS to work with an aluminum case? Have they updated the plate and PCB since the earlier models? On mine, only one screw can be used with an aluminum case. (AFAIK, the Cherry mx versions of the V60 work okay with an aluminum case, but the Matias-switch models did not). Thanks.

They haven't - there are no holes in the plate at all, but if you play around you can scew it using 2 screws on a side like I did. Just use a small screw driver and move the keyboard within the case from left to right a bit. It's a bit ghetto and definitely not perfect, but the improvement over the standard case is collosal. Eventually I'll cut myself a new aluminium plate that will fit the case better and allow screwing in all places, but I'm too busy to bother at this moment, and it's really not that bad with only those 2 screws.

[czarek]

I have got to disagree about the switches. The Matias Ergo Pro really disappointed me in that department. It's a solid board, so they should have felt stellar, but Matias tactile / Quiet Clicks are no comparison for good complicated Alps switches. Let alone Topre!

The fantasy switch that's half Topre and half Model F does in fact exist. Find yourself a beamspring! They're my favourite switch of all I've tried for good reason. Got that Topre swing — thanks to the lateral, and literal "beam" spring — and that classic sharp IBM click.

Matias "quiet clicks" are much more like MX clears than that. A lot of awkward, clunky tactility instead of smooth then instantaneous sharp. And they wobble a heck of a lot more than I'd like, too.

The problem with beamsprings and Model Fs is that they're basically unusable today for anything but writing novels. Anything that requires modifiers (good to have cmd, opt/alt and ctrl on both sides) and function keys is extremely cumbersome on boards that come with those switches, which usually have very little to none of the modifiers.
I do await Ellipse's new Kishsaver though. I really have very high hopes for this board.

As for ancient Alps, I went through dozens of keyboards with white, black and cream switches and most of them were very scratchy and worn out, not nice to type on at all. The best of old ones I came by were a batch of NIB Dell AT 101s with complicated black Alps, apart from those, all other Alps keyboards were mostly rubbish.
I'm not losing hope yet though, still looking for a good example of blue Alps that will be smooth and clicky as they're often described. I'll be happy to use them in this keyboard too

[Muirium]

Mwa hahaha!



Living the dream. Today!

[seebart]

I have got to disagree about the switches. The Matias Ergo Pro really disappointed me in that department. It's a solid board, so they should have felt stellar, but Matias tactile / Quiet Clicks are no comparison for good complicated Alps switches. Let alone Topre!

The fantasy switch that's half Topre and half Model F does in fact exist. Find yourself a beamspring! They're my favourite switch of all I've tried for good reason. Got that Topre swing — thanks to the lateral, and literal "beam" spring — and that classic sharp IBM click.

Matias "quiet clicks" are much more like MX clears than that. A lot of awkward, clunky tactility instead of smooth then instantaneous sharp. And they wobble a heck of a lot more than I'd like, too.

The problem with beamsprings and Model Fs is that they're basically unusable today for anything but writing novels. Anything that requires modifiers (good to have cmd, opt/alt and ctrl on both sides) and function keys is extremely cumbersome on boards that come with those switches, which usually have very little to none of the modifiers.
I do await Ellipse's new Kishsaver though. I really have very high hopes for this board.

As for ancient Alps, I went through dozens of keyboards with white, black and cream switches and most of them were very scratchy and worn out, not nice to type on at all. The best of old ones I came by were a batch of NIB Dell AT 101s with complicated black Alps, apart from those, all other Alps keyboards were mostly rubbish.
I'm not losing hope yet though, still looking for a good example of blue Alps that will be smooth and clicky as they're often described. I'll be happy to use them in this keyboard too

Very interesting opinion. It is well known that old dirty Alps do not feel nice and that the Alps SKCL/SKCM series are prone to dirt. I have experienced extreme differences between very dirty used and almost new Alps switches myself. I can tell you that clean Alps SKCM Blue is one of the nicest switches around, but of course that is also only my opinion. Oddly quite a few share that opinion.

The problem with beamsprings and Model Fs is that they're basically unusable today for anything but writing novels

Scottish novela?

[Muirium]

Yes, yes. It's not my keyboards that make me slow at that!

I can tell you that clean Alps SKCM Blue is one of the nicest switches around, but of course that is also only my opinion. Oddly quite a few share that opinion.

Including me.



Something I didn't know until Chyros schooled me: complicated Alps are a sinch to open and clean, even when sitting firmly in a plate!

I made a video tutorial a while ago on how to clean and maintain Alps switches. Hope it helps . Some switches that have seen particularly heavy use are simply at the end of their lifetime though.

Green and salmon Alps projects await me in America…

[seebart]

Right I did know that. Another brilliant feature.

[Muirium]

Right. But Matias switches are much more of a pain, if you try the same on them.

I was bitching about this to Chyros, wondering why Matias had to clone the later, shittier, simplified Alps instead of their better ancestors. He wonders if there could be patents blocking the way.

Mind, didn't Matias get into switch making in the first place because their Alps supplier was trying to close down? Perhaps Matias started from simplified Alps because they literally started from those! Necessity, not choice.

[czarek]

Mwa hahaha!



Living the dream. Today!

Looks good. I hope it feels good too as my old Model Fs (I only have XT, AT and terminal, no Kishsaver sadly) feel pretty scratchy and inconsistent. The older the worse really, and that's why I use Model Ms mostly nowadays.

[Muirium]

It's my best feeling Model F. Like all 60%s, it's good and tough compared to its bigger brothers. And since it's 3 kilos of metal, that's very tough indeed!

Model Fs do vary a bit. But I've never encountered one that isn't better than every Model M I've tried. And I know what a mint silver label M is like, as well as my NIB SSK. There's something murky about Model M that's inherent to the mechanism. M is night, F is day. They vary, but you always know which one it is!

[seebart]

Right. But Matias switches are much more of a pain, if you try the same on them.

I was bitching about this to Chyros, wondering why Matias had to clone the later, shittier, simplified Alps instead of their better ancestors. He wonders if there could be patents blocking the way.

Mind, didn't Matias get into switch making in the first place because their Alps supplier was trying to close down? Perhaps Matias started from simplified Alps because they literally started from those! Necessity, not choice.

Yes that and cost calculation.

The older the worse really, and that's why I use Model Ms mostly nowadays.

That's not my experience. Sounds like you're mainly getting dirty crappy old keyboards. I own a 39 year old keyboard that feels better than most of my newer ones.

[czarek]

It's my best feeling Model F. Like all 60%s, it's good and tough compared to its bigger brothers. And since it's 3 kilos of metal, that's very tough indeed!

Model Fs do vary a bit. But I've never encountered one that isn't better than every Model M I've tried. And I know what a mint silver label M is like, as well as my NIB SSK. There's something murky about Model M that's inherent to the mechanism. M is night, F is day. They vary, but you always know which one it is!

That's quite surprising judging by the wear on the metal case of if. I'd suspect it to be exposed to dirt and dust in the past that usually makes it scratchy and difficult if not impossible to get smooth again. Due to experience with Model Fs I had and have I usually pass on boards like this one if I can't touch it before purchasing.
I do agree with you that Fs vary by quite a lot. I think it depends on the size and the way they're put together. IMO the most solid is the terminal (it's also the smoothest I have) while the least solid (XT), while scratchiest, feels like the most usable daily, if only layout was better.
While they do feel totally different than Model Ms, I wouldn't say they're better. My daily driver Model M is quite beaten up UK made (well Scotlant made) 1391401, with all original rivets, which feels pretty smooth and consistent, although a bit "lazy".
To contrast this one, I was very dissapointed with the NIB SSK I had before, which came with many broken rivets and required bolt mod on day 1, never felt that good, I sold it with vengeance just so I could forget the dissapointment.
I have 2 silver labels (1390120 and 1390131), but I don't like how they feel, they're a bit too heavy and very "lazy" (by lazy I mean they rebound slowly).
My favourite feeling BS board is apparently my SpaceSaver M from Unicomp, but I don't use it because I can't make Fkeys work normally (they're pointlessly mapped to media keys). It's nice, consisntent, light and smooth.

[czarek]

The older the worse really, and that's why I use Model Ms mostly nowadays.

That's not my experience. Sounds like you're mainly getting dirty crappy old keyboards. I own a 39 year old keyboard that feels better than most of my newer ones.

How come? It's against the laws of physics. To me with use (friction) and oxidation of plastics (and metals), often exposed to elements, they just simply slowly decompose.
I can understand higher standards of production (keyboards were very expensive back then), use of different material (that is not bio degradable for example), newer tooling, but on the other hand machines and technology today are way more precise and affordable - you can build a decent router to mill aluminium from readily available parts in your garage!

[seebart]

That's quite surprising judging by the wear on the metal case of if. I'd suspect it to be exposed to dirt and dust in the past that usually makes it scratchy and difficult if not impossible to get smooth again.

We have more than one thread that proves this is not true.

http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/ibm- ... =model%20f

I can understand higher standards of production

Exactly, and simply much higher quality of the materials themselfs as you say. The condition and degree of useage is relevant of course. I'm typing this on a Model F XT from 1984 that is so very smooth and clean in look and feel. But it was in very good clean almost new condition when I bought it!

[Muirium]

I've been deep inside my Kishsaver — it didn't originally ship in an HHKB layout! — and everything's in great shape besides the foam. No rusty springs. No mysteriously biodegradable plastic! It's a rock, besides that foam layer. I plan to ultimately replace that, because I'm OCD that way, but the feel is excellent and I have no immediate reason to, besides an unhealthy interest in internal aesthetics!

These boards are merely decades old. I suspect theyll be good for at least a century. No miracles required, just a refreshing absence of disposable design.

[seebart]

The IBM model F series is build to last and repairable. If you buy any "regular" PC keyboard today and use it a lot it will not last ten years. Huge difference. Even the difference between F vs. M in quality cutback is huge.

[czarek]

Well, call me lazy then - I'll wait for Ellipse to provide me with a brand new keyboard that I won't have to deal with to make perfect, haha
I don't have patience to clean every dust particle in Fs I have, and I'm very sensitive to keyboard scratchiness and inconsistency. And even if they felt perfectly I wouldn't use them because of their layout. XT and AT need more modifiers, and terminal is just too massive.

[seebart]

Ellipse's project will not reach old IBM quality in my opinion. But that's speculation on my part of course. And yes layout is often an issue with these old keyboards. I like to help myself on the software side with keymapping.

[Muirium]

I wonder about that, too. I've asked him for a review unit. He's not so hot on the idea! But I can't spare the cash for one myself. Bad timing!

I use my Kishsaver pretty heavily, and have done since I was Xwhatsit's guineapig for the Model F version of his controller. So I know the feel very well indeed.

[seebart]

It can still be a great keyboard, but from a pure production point he cannot achieve that high quality build.

[Muirium]

Man up and say that on his thread, where he might notice!

[czarek]

It can still be a great keyboard, but from a pure production point he cannot achieve that high quality build.

I believe he can. Machines are way more precise nowadays. Just look at the quality of moulds back then and today. For example Model M vs even QFR. If IBM made their cases out of ABS they would squeek like crazy (or, like Unicomps) - just look at how they move around when you flex them.

Remember when they said doubleshot PBT keycaps and straight PBT spacebars were impossible? They weren't for a long time, but technology today allows for those things to happen. Not to forget it's Chinese and Taiwanese companies behind those things.

Things like unibody aluminium laptop cases are only possible since recently, while still difficult and expensive to make.

Trust me guys, technology today allows for miraculous things to happen. It's just a matter of will and QC/QA - which brings the costs high.

[scottc]

Well, something is certainly driving the costs up. We'll have to verify for ourselves which one it is once we see them!

[seebart]

Well we shall see, it has nothing to do with percision of tooling IMO. What good is percision if you don't have the same quality in plastics etc available?

[Muirium]

I love how that horseshit about PBT spacebars will never die. IBM was making them, admirably straight, in the 80s. As was NMB/HiTek. In fact, mine is thick and awesome. Made decades before they were "supposed" to be possible.

http://deskthority.net/review-f45/nmb-r ... t8469.html

A lot of folklore is hooey.

[seebart]

I love how that horseshit about PBT spacebars will never die. IBM was making them, admirably straight, in the 80s. As was NMB/HiTek. In fact, mine is thick and awesome. Made decades before they were "supposed" to be possible.

http://deskthority.net/review-f45/nmb-r ... t8469.html

A lot of folklore is hooey.

Sure that's another nice example. Why did they stop producing them? Cut the overhead, that's all.

[Muirium]

Keyboards: stuck in reverse evolution since right about 1985.

It's insane. And it's the reason why my keyboard is the only piece of vintage kit I use in my computing. This isn't idle nostalgia. This is using the best ever made.

[czarek]

I love how that horseshit about PBT spacebars will never die. IBM was making them, admirably straight, in the 80s. As was NMB/HiTek. In fact, mine is thick and awesome. Made decades before they were "supposed" to be possible.

I can clearly see a bump in a middle of your spacebar (and enter key). Can't see anything like this even in peasant poker space bar
As for NMBs, they're quite remarkable. I love my Amiga keyboards! Just those bloody ISO enters and umlauts on them...

[Muirium]

No bump. Just ISO noise in the picture. My camera is way too fucking old to handle well in Scottish winter. 2005 Canon 350D: several generations obsolete. Just like how keyboards should be, but aren't!

Zoom in and see the full fuzz of my despair. A new camera is a higher priority for me than one of Ellipse's remakes.

[seebart]

As for NMBs, they're quite remarkable. I love my Amiga keyboards! Just those bloody ISO enters and umlauts on them...

Finally we can agree on something!

http://deskthority.net/photos-f62/cherr ... =commodore