Trump v Clinton: who do you support?

How would you vote if you could vote?

Vote enthusiastically for Trump
12
14%
Vote enthusiastically for Clinton
8
9%
Vote for Trump because you despise Clinton
12
14%
Vote for Clinton because you despise Trump
19
22%
Refuse to vote because you despise them both
30
34%
Undecided
6
7%
 
Total votes: 87

User avatar
Halvar

22 Mar 2016, 08:40

chuckdee wrote:
fohat wrote:
chuckdee wrote:
The money given to the government to govern is given in trust. It doesn't belong to the government
I absolutely disagree with this concept in the strongest terms possible.
And that's cool. Still doesn't change my opinion as stated. And I'm not taking that from the bible, so not sure why the verse was quoted in that context.
Stating opinions in a forum without any sort of discussion or even explaining or argumenting makes no sense whatsoever though, does it?

I didn't understand the argument that's supposed to be in that bible verse either though. To me the bible verse seems to make no sense in a modern democracy and without the religious context that there are supposedly more important things than money that don't belong to Caesar.

User avatar
chuckdee

22 Mar 2016, 13:59

Halvar wrote:
chuckdee wrote:
And that's cool. Still doesn't change my opinion as stated. And I'm not taking that from the bible, so not sure why the verse was quoted in that context.
Stating opinions in a forum without any sort of discussion or even explaining or argumenting makes no sense whatsoever though, does it?
It does actually, when the opinion is off the topic and is a small part and detracts from the actual thrust of the conversation. I realized that in that way I had erred in even stating it, and corrected my own behavior in stating something that would take a lot more time to argue. If we wish to argue it, it would be more politic to take it to a different thread. As it was a statement in a larger point that I *would* debate, I merely acknowledged his statement, and moved on.
I think that there is a "collective better idea" that is conceived and nurtured in compromise, that you can never get in an echo chamber. Everyone that signed the Declaration of Independence didn't have the same beliefs on all points, nor did they agree with each other on many others. However they took what they did agree on, and used that as a basis for the Constitution that came after, and set the stage for our United States. Not the United States of those that I agree with. But the United States of America. People can, and should disagree, and debate, and compromise in pursuit of that "collective better idea". But these days, it seems that more and more, we're after "Our Perfect Idea", and damn the other side. And as we spiral into the end of the republic as we know it, we laugh at and ridicule the other side, rather than recognizing the truths before us.

In my opinion, both sides want a better America. But conservatives tend to minimize the human factor, and liberals tend to minimize the fiduciary factor.

<snip />

The preamble of the constitution seems to be ignored as a vision statement by all sides, and it's sad to see.
All of that was passed over, if not ignored, to find the one point that was arguable.

Hmm.

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

22 Mar 2016, 14:46

chuckdee wrote:
not sure why the verse was quoted in that context.
My reason for quoting Jesus, one of the greatest moral philosophers (and arguably one of the greatest men) of all time was two-fold.

First, because I generally try to make it my policy to reinforce my comments with independent 3rd-party opinions or information to widen the context of my response and provide background on why I feel the way that I do.

And second, (since this social conversation is being conducted in the context of current US politics) because the I would not want to miss an opportunity to demonstrate the cynical and disingenuous attitudes and behaviors of the bad guys when they attempt to cloak themselves in the false trappings of "Christian values" while defending precisely what Jesus himself spent his career disparaging.

User avatar
cookie

23 Mar 2016, 09:01

Saw this and had a good laugh :D
uploadfromtaptalk1458720072341.jpg
uploadfromtaptalk1458720072341.jpg (50.67 KiB) Viewed 8073 times

User avatar
chuckdee

24 Mar 2016, 19:03


User avatar
Redmaus
Gotta start somewhere

24 Mar 2016, 19:26

People don't speak out because the left demonizes Trump and the sheep persecute those who do openly.

jacobolus

24 Mar 2016, 21:11

Donald Trump breaks many taboos of polite society from the past 50 years. Republican presidential candidates since Nixon have relied on “dog whistles”: coded statements which particular groups of constituents know the meaning of, but which sound relatively innocuous.

Trump doesn’t bother with dog whistles. He comes right out and says that women should be treated as second-class citizens, that we should kick all the Mexicans and Muslims out of the country, that we should bomb the hell out of the whole middle east, that we should torture people, that we should directly target terrorists’ wives and children, and that protestors at political rallies should get beat up. He has dragged the whole Republican party with him into the mud, so that now Cruz also talks about carpet bombing Syria and turning Muslim neighborhoods in the US into a police state. Trump goaded Rubio into starting a conversation about the size of Trump’s penis, which he was overjoyed to continue. Whenever anyone tries to call him out as a liar or a hypocrite, he dodges the substance and turns to cheap insults.

This is a big problem for the Republican party, because they’ve spent 50 years trying to subtly imply all the same things that Trump is willing to say outright. So if they completely repudiate him, the whole angry racist wing of the party will feel betrayed. But they can’t really agree with Trump directly, as then the 60+ percent of the country who believes in respect and common decency will be turned off.

It’s not necessary to “demonize” Trump. He’s not a demon. He’s just a pitiful angry little man with a huge ego who desperately wants to be respected but couldn’t ever quite figure out how.

User avatar
Redmaus
Gotta start somewhere

24 Mar 2016, 22:46

Jeez you guys are really desperate to bash Trump aren't you?

You essentially just called him satan with a bunch of false claims.

User avatar
seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

24 Mar 2016, 22:52

Nope I'm not bashing him, you have to admit he's a pretty high profile type of person. A lot of media coverage even before this political race. The longer this race goes the more his "enemies" are going to dig up, and it seems there is a ton of material. But Mrs. Clinton has a lot of known stories too.

User avatar
Redmaus
Gotta start somewhere

24 Mar 2016, 23:00

I was talking to jacobolus but if you look at his website and his policies, I can agree with almost all of them. Compared to Hillary's which is scary and Bernie's which is laughable.

User avatar
seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

24 Mar 2016, 23:02

You do know that all candidates may not actually be able to implement all those policies though right? That goes for all of them.

User avatar
Invisius

24 Mar 2016, 23:09

Neither, for different reasons. While Trump's an outsider to the typical GOP bribery, he's got very little substance behind his "plans" for the country. A whole lot of posturing, and refuses to actually support any of his positions when asked. I don't think for a minute he'd hesitate to put his own business interests into play if elected, especially since there's no voting record to say otherwise.

Clinton is easily the most bought and paid for candidate, along with Ted Cruz. Just look at all the PACs, banks and hedge funds paying for her campaign https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/cont ... 019&type=f not to mention, she's all about continuing many of what I consider Obama's mistakes (surveillance, bailouts, etc.)

GOP wants everyone to think Cruz is an outsider, except his funding is all from deregulation-centered superPACs and Goldman Sachs. Not only that; he's been married to a Sachs executive of 10 years. Not a company I want given any more power. :? This leaves Bernie as the lesser of evils for me, by far. He might have some extreme positions on foreign policy and gun control, but his funding and voting record are pretty sound.

User avatar
Redmaus
Gotta start somewhere

24 Mar 2016, 23:13

Bernie will destroy the economy though. Not that it matters anyway, as the democratic party wants Hillary to be the nominee. The super delegates will ensure her victory.

User avatar
Invisius

24 Mar 2016, 23:25

Redmaus wrote: Bernie will destroy the economy though. Not that it matters anyway, as the democratic party wants Hillary to be the nominee. The super delegates will ensure her victory.
Do you mean companies leaving due to being taxed higher? I already see that happening (tech companies moving to Ireland, offshoring bank accounts, outsourcing).

I really think it's either collusion/lobbyism squeezing us dry over time, or Bernie's policies forcing them to pay up if they want to continue doing business here. Sure some will say no, but I don't think most would for such a large market.

You're spot on about the superdelegates, though. Even when he wins some states, news outlets refuse to keep them out of the equation. Really undermines the whole point of voting, no?

User avatar
Redmaus
Gotta start somewhere

24 Mar 2016, 23:40

Trump intends to have a max corporate tax of 15% but close all the loopholes. I think this is a sounds approach.

Also Bernie wants a 15$ minimum wage :lol:

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

25 Mar 2016, 00:06

I have yet to hear a single idea out of Sander's mouth that I do not agree with 100 percent.
Last edited by fohat on 25 Mar 2016, 02:52, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Redmaus
Gotta start somewhere

25 Mar 2016, 00:18

So you think that no white person knows what its like to be poor or live in the ghetto?

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

25 Mar 2016, 00:36

Anyone who actually listened to the complete segment understood exactly what he was actually saying.

Selectively snipping minor pieces out of a larger whole in order to twist the meaning is being disingenuous.

User avatar
Invisius

25 Mar 2016, 00:44

Redmaus wrote: Also Bernie wants a 15$ minimum wage :lol:
There's quite a few of Sander's stances I disagree with, but he's not afraid to support and explain them. That, and a 25+ year record of standing by and voting for what he believes in. To me that's more important than any rah-rah Trump or appeasement Clinton speeches.

User avatar
Redmaus
Gotta start somewhere

25 Mar 2016, 00:54

fohat wrote: Anyone who actually listened to the complete segment understood exactly what he was actually saying.

Selectively snipping minor pieces out of a larger whole in order to twist the meaning is being disingenuous.
Yeah I listened to the whole segment and what he said was racist. How is it not?

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

25 Mar 2016, 01:17

I suppose that "racist" could be defined as any member of any race making generalizations about any other race.

However it is a real stretch to call a member of one race who has been sincerely working, for decades, (far longer than you have been alive, by the way) to genuinely improve the lot of the other race, a racist.
Last edited by fohat on 25 Mar 2016, 02:53, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
chuckdee

25 Mar 2016, 01:25

Redmaus wrote:
fohat wrote: Anyone who actually listened to the complete segment understood exactly what he was actually saying.

Selectively snipping minor pieces out of a larger whole in order to twist the meaning is being disingenuous.
Yeah I listened to the whole segment and what he said was racist. How is it not?
I don't think that word means what you think it means.

having or showing the belief that a particular race is superior to another.

Nope. Definitely not.

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

25 Mar 2016, 02:51

Sanders has consistently been a tireless advocate for the downtrodden since he was in high school in the 1950s.

jacobolus

25 Mar 2016, 04:49

Redmaus wrote: You essentially just called him satan with a bunch of false claims.
LOLWUT?

I only listed a bunch of things he has directly said, in public. Which part do you think is a false claim?

jacobolus

25 Mar 2016, 05:06

A boosted federal minimum wage would be an incredible driver of economic prosperity for the country at large. I think $15 is politically impossible considering the current congress, but even an increase to $10 or $12 would be amazing, and I think it could be done with enough organizing / mobilization of the public.

In 1968, the peak year for the minimum wage in the US, the inflation-adjusted minimum wage (in 2016 dollars) was something like $11/hour. Today it is $7.25/hour. That’s a drop of more than a third, or to turn it around, $11/hour is about a 50% increase compared to $7.25.

Imagine if your salary dropped by 33%. Suddenly whatever financial stability you have would be put in jeopardy. You’d have to radically scale back your standard of living. Getting hit with a huge medical bill, having your car break down, needing to pay for an unexpected funeral, or whatever medium-scale financial shock would put you in dangerous territory. If all the other possible jobs paid the same or less, and might be difficult to land on short notice, you’d be in a terrible negotiating position with your boss. It would be tough to save money or get out from under existing debts.

Or alternately, imagine if your salary went up by 50%. Suddenly a lot of goods and services that were previously out of your reach would be much more affordable. You’d be able to have more flexibility and a better negotiating position vis-a-vis your employer. You could afford to work less and spend more time taking care of children or elderly relatives. You could more easily save up to buy a house, or more easily pay off college loans. You’d gain a considerable amount of financial stability.

Now imagine such benefits flowing to everyone in the bottom 50% of the society. It would be a huge help to economic equality and economic health at a societal level.

Of course, the downside would be that the wealthy wouldn’t be able to have quite as much advantage over everyone. It would be harder to hire as many domestic servants, and labor-intensive products would go up in price somewhat relative to upper middle class salaries. Since the wealthy are the most influential drivers of American policy at every level, it would take a political miracle to get the Republican party on board with any policy aimed at helping the broad bulk of the public at the expense of the wealthy.

User avatar
III

25 Mar 2016, 05:11

I don't know that an increase to $15 would be good for the prices of current commodities but I do support an increase. I just feel that increasing too much at once will just lower the buying power of a US dollar.

jacobolus

25 Mar 2016, 05:22

A bit more inflation (we’ve been stuck well below the Fed target for years, which is why interest rates are stuck at 0%), and a weaker dollar relative to other currencies would be a big boon for most Americans. It would marginally hurt lenders and folks with large savings while helping debtors and working people. But it would also help American industry by boosting exports, help bring down the stratospheric prices of non-tradeable goods such as healthcare, education, and housing relative to tradeable goods like staple foods, textiles, or electronic gadgets, and it would reduce un- and under-employment. [All of these effects come from basic textbook models of international trade and macroeconomics.]

But any dramatic minimum wage change would need to be phased in over 4–5 years, a few percent at a time. There isn’t going to be any very sharp shock.

User avatar
Redmaus
Gotta start somewhere

25 Mar 2016, 07:22

Respectfully, I disagree with what you said. Companies for the most part don't care about giving jobs to Americans, they want to max out their profits. If the minimum wage is raised, they will outsource even more jobs or find ways to bypass it such as using automation to avoid paying these wages. Either that or the price of commodities will raise drastically(although it wouldn't be drastic if it was raised as you proposed) and your 5 dollar burger will be 10 dollars. That isn't an exact quote but more of an example.

Also the wage fluctuates throughout the years, and you used an example of it when it was at it's highest. When our economy was growing. The years after 1968 had been riddled with rising interest rates, rising commodity prices, and new technology.

Read this for more info on the topic: https://www.stratfor.com/weekly/u_s_eco ... xt_big_one
Pew research center.png
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Here is some info from the Pew research center about the minimum wage and where it is 6 years before now. Now the highest was 10$. Imagine a spike of 15$ all the sudden out of nowhere. Its an artificial anomaly. This will hurt the economy. Most minimum wage jobs are in the food service industry. As I said before, I think companies will find a was to use autonomous labor to circumvent the minimum wage if it was raised that high.

48% of people on minimum wage are in their teens which means it is only an entry level job and that is what the minimum wage is meant for. It isn't supposed to be a permanent situation.

In short, the economy has changed a lot since 1968, and making the minimum wage higher will not solve the problem. You cannot solve the problem with just increasing wages. The current economic and political climate must be suited for it as well. Thanks for the well thought out reply though. I am not used to arguing at such a high level of thought.

Kids at school aren't as informed as you guys are :roll:

jacobolus

25 Mar 2016, 08:54

Redmaus wrote: your 5 dollar burger will be 10 dollars. That isn't an exact quote but more of an example.
If wages from the bottom through middle go up by some steep amount, and restaurant meal prices go up by the same percentage, the only people negatively affected are those at the top. Everyone else gets a big boost to their standard of living because everything else (rent, healthcare, clothing, transportation, ...) becomes relatively cheaper for them.
The years after 1968 had been riddled with rising interest rates, rising commodity prices, and new technology.
More realistically, the mid-1960s were a high mark (the Great Society, the civil rights movement, a strong liberal Supreme Court, the hippie movement, etc.) as far as the social safety net, civil rights, labor rights, social equality and cohesion, women’s rights (at a legal level, if perhaps not yet in practice), and broad-based prosperity flowing from general sharing of the tremendous economic growth of the 30s–60s.

1968 was a critical year though. The Vietnam war was going into full swing. There were mass movements around the world. Big worker/student protests in Paris. The Tlatelolco massacre during student protests in Mexico. In the US, Martin Luther King, Jr. was assassinated, and there was a very contentious Democratic party primary. Then Bobby Kennedy was assassinated. And so on.

In the US, the Democratic party completely imploded. Kennedy’s assassination threw everyone into confusion. Despite Eugene McCarthy being massively more popular, the Democratic convention chose VP Hubert Humphrey as the nominee, and the Chicogo police brutally clubbed and tear-gassed protestors outside the venue.

The Democrats lost the general election to Nixon (I think the final tally was like 1% off in popular vote, but the electoral vote was a landslide). Nixon’s primary strategy was to appeal to whites who were pro-war and anti-black, and who disapproved of Johnson’s support for civil rights. It was a working strategy, causing a permanent party realignment, where racist southern whites switched from the Democratic to Republican parties. (At the state level, this party realignment took another 20 years in some places, but for presidential elections it was pretty fast.)

In broad strokes, Nixon, and later Reagan and both Bushes, as well as local Republican party officials around the country, prioritized breaking down voting rights, breaking up organized labor, sending spies into the civil rights movement to undermine it from inside, lowering taxes on the wealthy, fighting a “drug war” as a way to destroy minority communities, deregulating industries and privatizing national infrastructure, cutting down public education, fighting anti-discrimination laws, and so on. Basically tearing up the fabric of civil society, preying on people’s fear and hatred, and working to divide people. Not to mention foreign policy, which centered on overthrowing democratic governments and propping up authoritarian dictators, in the name of anti-communism (or more recently in the name of some vague “regional interests”), but mostly at the behest of multinational corporations.

The Democrats or at least a significant proportion of them, on the other side, have mostly been wishy-washy at best, and sometimes just as bought out by corporate (recently, especially financial) interests. Bill Clinton signed the repeal of Glass-Steagall, the shredding of federal welfare programs, a host of bullshit “tough on crime” laws, nasty anti-immigrant policies, continuing erosion of labor rights, corporate-but-not-person-friendly free trade agreements, and so on, in the name of “bipartisanship” and “responsibility”. Both Clinton and Obama have had great difficulty passing any substantive legislation through intransigent obstructionist Republicans in Congress.

Pretty much the only US president in the past 70 years who wasn’t a war criminal, and who stood on any kind of personal principles, was Jimmy Carter, and he only made it in on a fluke in the backlash against Nixon’s blatant criminality.

The US Supreme Court has moved steadily and now very far to the right. Pretty much every replacement of a Justice from the 1970s–2000s was for a more conservative one. Well established constitutional and statutory interpretations in favor of labor rights, consumer rights, voting rights, civil rights, debtors rights, etc. have been reversed, giving stronger advantages to the wealthy and powerful in every aspect of American society.

Labor productivity has gone up steadily from (to pick an arbitrary cutoff) the 1930s to today, but while those improvements were broadly distributed through the society up through the 1960s, in the time since, and especially since the 1980s, productivity keeps going up but middle-class wages are stagnant or slightly declining, while the share of income going to the top 1% has rocketed off the charts.

Figuring out how to unwind an oligarchic, aristocratic society fronted by a half-broken quasi-democracy, and return the society to some kind of equality is not an easy job. Maybe not possible, I don’t know. The way to start is to tax capital gains as income, push estate taxes back up to historical levels, add new top marginal income tax levels aimed at folks making >$1e6/year, and work to close tax loopholes. Then to spend massively on fixing up our infrastructure so it doesn’t all collapse, increase the minimum wage (spaced over a few years if you like), continue fighting for a single payer healthcare system, figure out how to get college to not force massive debt onto people too young to competently make such big financial decisions, work on unrolling the broken racist criminal justice and prison system, etc.

The sad thing is, having a broken society, with decrepit broken infrastructure, poor education, a broken healthcare system where people are left untreated or relying on emergency room care, a massive debt load, abandoned and underfunded civic institutions, governments at every level coopted by self-interested thugs, rampant cheating throughout business and society, etc., is not good for anyone. Even rich people don’t really want to live in a third world country.
Last edited by jacobolus on 25 Mar 2016, 09:08, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Redmaus
Gotta start somewhere

25 Mar 2016, 09:01

I will post my counterargument tomorrow you are a fast typist :lol: I need to get to bed

Odd obsession with democrats and republicans though. I notice a lot of that here.

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