F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

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depletedvespene

05 Aug 2019, 19:32

Zed wrote:
05 Aug 2019, 18:20
Ellipse wrote:
05 Aug 2019, 02:49
The 1.75U Ctrl key is included - it is part of the HHKB set. It is currently spelled out as Control.

I'd be fine with Ctrl as an additional option if there is room on the templates.
We have space for an additional 1.75U in the 'Extras' group. I'll add a 'Ctrl' to it.
Cool to know. Now show us the updated template. :mrgreen: (turns out to have been for the best that I spent last week procrastinating about doing the full list of keys I want to order)

ryvnf

05 Aug 2019, 20:41

Zed wrote:
05 Aug 2019, 18:20
We have space for an additional 1.75U in the 'Extras' group. I'll add a 'Ctrl' to it.
Awesome! :)

Also if there is room for one more 1U front-printed key. I would also add an Esc-key with ~ (tilde) front-printed. There are people who put tilde on a function layer that I think would be interested in that. And I remember there was a person who requested that a very long time ago. I won't order one, but I think other people would.

The renders look really nice. But I found one point to raise about the PgUp and PgDn for the front-printed keys. It appears that a space has slipped in between the capitals. So it looks like "Pg Up" and "Pg Dn". I think you should put less space between the characters, so it is consistent with the "ScrLk" and "PrtSc". Hope to see that resolved before the keys go into production. Here is image so you can see what I mean.
frontprint.png
frontprint.png (16.79 KiB) Viewed 2950 times

User avatar
Zed

07 Aug 2019, 00:39

ryvnf wrote:
05 Aug 2019, 20:41
Zed wrote:
05 Aug 2019, 18:20
We have space for an additional 1.75U in the 'Extras' group. I'll add a 'Ctrl' to it.
Awesome! :)

Also if there is room for one more 1U front-printed key. I would also add an Esc-key with ~ (tilde) front-printed. There are people who put tilde on a function layer that I think would be interested in that. And I remember there was a person who requested that a very long time ago. I won't order one, but I think other people would.

The renders look really nice. But I found one point to raise about the PgUp and PgDn for the front-printed keys. It appears that a space has slipped in between the capitals. So it looks like "Pg Up" and "Pg Dn". I think you should put less space between the characters, so it is consistent with the "ScrLk" and "PrtSc". Hope to see that resolved before the keys go into production. Here is image so you can see what I mean.

frontprint.png
Thanks for the feedback. I'll take a look at the spacing. I agree on the Esc w/ tilde key and I can work one in if Ellipse is game. Would folks want " ~ " + " ` " on the front or just the tilde?

Humanoid

07 Aug 2019, 09:25

Regarding the standard 1.5U model M tab:
Zed wrote:
24 Jul 2019, 04:05
Unfortunately, we don't have room to add any more 1.5U keys to the printing template...
Regarding the non-standard 1.75U ctrl key:
Zed wrote:
05 Aug 2019, 18:20
We have space for an additional 1.75U in the 'Extras' group. I'll add a 'Ctrl' to it.
Is the space for a 1.75U key not usable for a 1.5U key?

I just noticed that the standard "Print Screen / SysRq" and "Pause / Break" are part of the extras, and not part of the standard set. They should be part of the standard set. The ones without the front-printed SysRq and Break should be in the extras.

User avatar
Zed

07 Aug 2019, 19:45

Humanoid wrote:
07 Aug 2019, 09:25
Regarding the standard 1.5U model M tab:
Zed wrote:
24 Jul 2019, 04:05
Unfortunately, we don't have room to add any more 1.5U keys to the printing template...
Regarding the non-standard 1.75U ctrl key:
Zed wrote:
05 Aug 2019, 18:20
We have space for an additional 1.75U in the 'Extras' group. I'll add a 'Ctrl' to it.
Is the space for a 1.75U key not usable for a 1.5U key?

I just noticed that the standard "Print Screen / SysRq" and "Pause / Break" are part of the extras, and not part of the standard set. They should be part of the standard set. The ones without the front-printed SysRq and Break should be in the extras.
If I understand how Ellipse set up the printing jig correctly, we cannot interchange 1.5U and 1.75U keys due to the different stem positions. However, your determination may yet payoff as it got me to review the templates and I noticed that I have a slot in the 'Extras' group reserved for a 1.5U 'Alt Gr' key which I don't think is really needed since that key is already in all the ISO sets. If there is no demand for individually printed 'Alt Gr' keys from ANSI users or whomever, there is a slot available for your 'Tab' key pending approval from Ellipse, of course.

As far as the front printed 'SysReq' and 'Break' not being part of the standard set, this was the way Ellipse wanted to set up those keys and there is absolutely no room for any more front printed keys on the layout. The printing jig is basically a full keyboard with some extra keys to fill in the space around the nav cluster and where the space bar would be and with an extra row of 24 1U keys on the bottom. This bottom row are the only keys which can have front printing and the standard set template has the entire row occupied by the 'Front Print F Row' and 'Industrial SSK' keys.

User avatar
depletedvespene

07 Aug 2019, 20:54

Zed wrote:
07 Aug 2019, 19:45

If I understand how Ellipse set up the printing jig correctly, we cannot interchange 1.5U and 1.75U keys due to the different stem positions. However, your determination may yet payoff as it got me to review the templates and I noticed that I have a slot in the 'Extras' group reserved for a 1.5U 'Alt Gr' key which I don't think is really needed since that key is already in all the ISO sets. If there is no demand for individually printed 'Alt Gr' keys from ANSI users or whomever, there is a slot available for your 'Tab' key pending approval from Ellipse, of course.
Icon AltGr, have you been forgotten so quickly? :( :( :( :( :( :(

User avatar
Zed

07 Aug 2019, 21:17

depletedvespene wrote:
07 Aug 2019, 20:54
Zed wrote:
07 Aug 2019, 19:45

If I understand how Ellipse set up the printing jig correctly, we cannot interchange 1.5U and 1.75U keys due to the different stem positions. However, your determination may yet payoff as it got me to review the templates and I noticed that I have a slot in the 'Extras' group reserved for a 1.5U 'Alt Gr' key which I don't think is really needed since that key is already in all the ISO sets. If there is no demand for individually printed 'Alt Gr' keys from ANSI users or whomever, there is a slot available for your 'Tab' key pending approval from Ellipse, of course.
Icon AltGr, have you been forgotten so quickly? :( :( :( :( :( :(
You could probably fill a book with all that I have forgotten just about this project alone but the Icon 'Alt Gr' is accounted for in the 'Icon' group so no worries.

ryvnf

07 Aug 2019, 22:17

Is it possible to see a picture of the templates or their planned layout? Just curious how things are laid out.

Ellipse

08 Aug 2019, 01:39

In 1-2 days the product boxes are shipping to the factory doing the mass assembly. I have requested photos of the boxes. So I expect final mass assembly and packaging to resume next week and finish in the coming weeks for the remaining early bird units.

Regarding Pg Up and Pg Dn, interestingly my 1391472 from 1987 has a half space between Pg and Up and no space between Pg and Dn. Probably best to go with ryvnf's recommendation of no spaces.

I recommend ~ and ` if we are front printing Esc.

Humanoid

08 Aug 2019, 20:48

Ellipse wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 01:39
I recommend ~ and ` if we are front printing Esc.
Or more precisely, "Esc" goes on the top of the key. The backquote goes on the front left, and the tilde goes on the front right, since we have to press an extra shift to the get tilde.

The reason for putting Esc on the top is because it is far more common to press than the backquote or tilde.

But if there's space, the reverse can also be done, where the "Esc" goes on the front, and the backquote and tilde go on top in their usual locations.

User avatar
Zed

09 Aug 2019, 00:23

ryvnf wrote:
07 Aug 2019, 22:17
Is it possible to see a picture of the templates or their planned layout? Just curious how things are laid out.
Here is the master template that I assume was used to manufacture the printing jig.
F XT Print Jig.png
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The Base set and most of the extra keys artwork. The red boxes are for me to align the artwork and won't get printed.
F XT Base Set template.png
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F XT Extra Keys template.png
F XT Extra Keys template.png (51.01 KiB) Viewed 2482 times
The decoder sheet I made to work out how to arrange the extra keys. Main group of extra keys on the bottom with several extra 2 or 3 row segments for the rest of the keys. These will go in the extra space of large sheets that get printed out for the dye sub printing paper which I believe are big enough for 6 (or 7?) copies of full sized keyboard layouts.
F XT Extra Keys decoder.png
F XT Extra Keys decoder.png (91.85 KiB) Viewed 2482 times

Ellipse

09 Aug 2019, 04:39

Production of the double-walled boxes finished this week! Below are some photos of the boxes.

Unfortunately they made a mistake on the artwork color (I specified that shade of blue from the rendered artwork posted a while back but they did the artwork in black). We are moving forward with these boxes to avoid any further delays, and I have requested the blue color for the artwork of the final round boxes.
boxes (1).jpg
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ryvnf

09 Aug 2019, 14:10

Zed wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 00:23
Here is the master template that I assume was used to manufacture the printing jig.

F XT Print Jig.png

The Base set and most of the extra keys artwork. The red boxes are for me to align the artwork and won't get printed.

F XT Base Set template.png

F XT Extra Keys template.png

The decoder sheet I made to work out how to arrange the extra keys. Main group of extra keys on the bottom with several extra 2 or 3 row segments for the rest of the keys. These will go in the extra space of large sheets that get printed out for the dye sub printing paper which I believe are big enough for 6 (or 7?) copies of full sized keyboard layouts.

F XT Extra Keys decoder.png
Interesting. Seems quite complicated to manage while making sure everything is accounted for. I assume templates will be used to print the different keys on demand? So if there is more demand for certain keys that will be produced more, while other parts of the template will remain relatively unused. Seems like doing otherwise would create lots of remaining keys which would be hard to sell.

Is it possible for a sheet of dye sub printing paper to be used repeatedly? Or will the print quality fade out when the same sheet is used multiple times?

User avatar
darkcruix

09 Aug 2019, 17:58

Love the boxes and artwork (also while printed in black). Can't wait to see them in real life.

Wazrach

09 Aug 2019, 18:28

Aw man... I really can't wait.

ryvnf

09 Aug 2019, 21:38

The boxes look good. While I think dark blue would have looked even better, the black looks really nice too. Now the boxes become like the IBM Model M badges. The earliest ones have black, later ones have blue.

User avatar
Redmaus
Gotta start somewhere

09 Aug 2019, 21:48

ryvnf wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 21:38
The boxes look good. While I think dark blue would have looked even better, the black looks really nice too. Now the boxes become like the IBM Model M badges. The earliest ones have black, later ones have blue.
That a really good observation! I think this works out for the best.

User avatar
FXT
XT

10 Aug 2019, 03:44

I wonder if my matching number boards will come in the same color boxes.

NilesLinus

10 Aug 2019, 05:30

I can already hear the debate in 30 years:

I think the black-box era Fs are by far the best. They’re the true originals.

Oh no no. The blue-box era Fs are clearly superior, what with their evolution in production processes.

User avatar
Mattr567

10 Aug 2019, 07:09

NilesLinus wrote:
10 Aug 2019, 05:30
I can already hear the debate in 30 years:

I think the black-box era Fs are by far the best. They’re the true originals.

Oh no no. The blue-box era Fs are clearly superior, what with their evolution in production processes.
I'm saddened this will actually happen.

ryvnf

12 Aug 2019, 17:56

If a person orders extra/custom keycaps will those get shipped with the keyboard? Or do you plan to ship all keyboards before you start doing the extra keycaps?

Ellipse

13 Aug 2019, 13:47

ryvnf not sure yet.

The boxes have arrived!
2019 08 13 boxes (3).jpg
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2019 08 13 boxes (2).jpg
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2019 08 13 boxes (1).jpg
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darkcruix

13 Aug 2019, 17:08

a dream comes true

consensual-penis

14 Aug 2019, 05:48

I have read more than enough to know that I want in, especially seeing the progress that has been made.

My order has been placed! :D

evoman

15 Aug 2019, 16:17

Forgive me for a somewhat naive query, but I am having a really hard time keeping track of the various layout options. So I wonder if someone can clarify these issues (perhaps others are having similar issues)?

1. Are the five layouts (plus the sixth with just numbers on keys) for the right side block shown on the website the only options? (I have seen people posting other ideas, so want to confirm). My order says I requested '0-9 and cursor keys', but I see two layouts that could fit that description.

2. Can I change the requested layout given all the updates and other info that has passed through this thread? (especially relevant to me personally since I have spent the last year using a CM Novatouch, so am now used to that sort of block). Or will the keyboard arrive with the keys required for either layout and I can just swap them (not sure how the mapping of keys works)

3. I added the HHKB set, but the website shows two different HHKB layouts, so it is not clear how one indicates which configuration they want (I assume that requesting an ISO enter makes that decision for me).

For other options, like the front printed F keys, I assume that I will need to swap those myself since they do not really alter the layout.

One other question (a bit off the topic of layouts) - if I ordered the zinc case and decide I would prefer the ultra compact, can that be changed?

Ellipse

16 Aug 2019, 00:51

1. You can configure them with any key as the Model F 1U keys are all interchangeable. You could make the right side block media keys or dedicated function keys, for example. The available factory configurations are the first two in that right side block options image on each F77 product page.
2. Yes this can be changed after you get the keyboard - please make sure you have a wire key puller like the one listed on the project web site.
3. You ordered UK ISO layout. Please message me to discuss whether you'd like the HHKB style split right shift or not as you cannot switch from full size right shift to HHKB style with the same components.

Please message me about your case question and what you'd like and I will check.

User avatar
consolation

16 Aug 2019, 05:44

evoman wrote:
15 Aug 2019, 16:17
...
2. Can I change the requested layout given all the updates and other info that has passed through this thread? (especially relevant to me personally since I have spent the last year using a CM Novatouch, so am now used to that sort of block).
...
As someone in exactly the same situation, I would recommend getting right block 5 and split right shift, that way you can have the navkeys in the same position as on the novatouch, and use the extra key beside r-shift as numlock to switch into numpad mode. You can program the function key to act as numlock when double tapping or as function key when holding down, to access F1-12 / media keys (map them on top of the number keys or anywhere you prefer.)

my 2c

evoman

16 Aug 2019, 11:29

consolation wrote:
16 Aug 2019, 05:44
evoman wrote:
15 Aug 2019, 16:17
...
2. Can I change the requested layout given all the updates and other info that has passed through this thread? (especially relevant to me personally since I have spent the last year using a CM Novatouch, so am now used to that sort of block).
...
As someone in exactly the same situation, I would recommend getting right block 5 and split right shift, that way you can have the navkeys in the same position as on the novatouch, and use the extra key beside r-shift as numlock to switch into numpad mode. You can program the function key to act as numlock when double tapping or as function key when holding down, to access F1-12 / media keys (map them on top of the number keys or anywhere you prefer.)

my 2c
Great suggestion - I need to properly consider all the options! (so many options it is almost overwhelming). If I swap keys around, how do I re-map the keys? I often switch between a few different keyboards, but the only change I ever have to make is selecting the language (or just ignoring the printing on the keys). So, if I swap to a different format in the block, what needs to be done to get the OS to recognise the new configuration?

Ellipse

16 Aug 2019, 15:04

Feel free to check out the xwhatsit manual. http://downloads.cornall.co/ibm-capsens ... odel_f.pdf

The operating system may also be able to switch between languages and layouts without you having to change the xwhatsit layout configuration.

The xwhatsit allows for saved layout configuration files to quickly switch between options without changing each key.

LessPaul

18 Aug 2019, 18:19

I am a bit confused regarding the possible Bluetooth option which may be offered in the future. I had thought the F62/F77 keyboard manufacturing was going to be a one and done sort of thing, however this seems to indicate there will be future production runs, with possible additional options. Where did I become confused?

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