First mechanical keyboard questions
- Yasu0
- Location: hawaii
- Main keyboard: dull grey ibm selectric
- Main mouse: vertical ergonomic old man mouse
- Favorite switch: unicomp m, spring and rubber in perfect harmony.
I'll say this for any normies reading through this thread. Buy a unicomp or AT model M for your $60 to $140 USD for a "first mech" then STOP. Don't keep going the rabbit hole. Sure that other whatever else may "feel a little bit better" or whatever but just STOP. Like MJ says. Hindsight being 20/20 its what I wish I'd done.
- Yasu0
- Location: hawaii
- Main keyboard: dull grey ibm selectric
- Main mouse: vertical ergonomic old man mouse
- Favorite switch: unicomp m, spring and rubber in perfect harmony.
Nah I'm talking to any noob normals happen to be reading through this thread. Trying to put a silver lining on a trash thread.
- Bjerrk
- Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
- Main keyboard: Cherry G80-1800 & Models F & M
- Main mouse: Mouse Keys, Trackpoint, Trackball
- Favorite switch: IBM Buckling Springs+Beamspring, Alps Plate Spring
There is of course also the possibility that some people actually enjoy the hobby. Just throwing it out there.
- robo
- Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA
- Main keyboard: IBM Model M SSK (1993)
- Main mouse: Logitech M570
- Favorite switch: Buckling Spring
- DT Pro Member: -
- Mandarbmax
- Location: USA
- Main keyboard: Unicomp Classic
- Main mouse: Steel Series Sensei Raw
- Favorite switch: Buckling Springs
I agree completely. The first keyboard I bought was a unicomp classic. Now half a decade, dozens of keyboards, and many hundreds of dollars later I still haven't found anything better.Yasu0 wrote: ↑24 Nov 2021, 18:36I'll say this for any normies reading through this thread. Buy a unicomp or AT model M for your $60 to $140 USD for a "first mech" then STOP. Don't keep going the rabbit hole. Sure that other whatever else may "feel a little bit better" or whatever but just STOP. Like MJ says. Hindsight being 20/20 its what I wish I'd done.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
None of those hundreds of bucks went on Model Fs or Topres then, I’m guessing. If not: kiss goodbye to more!Mandarbmax wrote: ↑04 Dec 2021, 08:30I agree completely. The first keyboard I bought was a unicomp classic. Now half a decade, dozens of keyboards, and many hundreds of dollars later I still haven't found anything better.
I started out with a Model F XT as my first mech, which ruined me on Model M right from the start. There’s just no comparison. I love the size and layout of my (IBM original) SSKs, but even NIB is lousy compared to a Model F. If only the Model MF project hadn’t gone tits up.
The leap from M to F is as night and day as MX blue to Model M. And I’m saying this as someone whose most costly IBM keyboard was that NIB Model M SSK. Yes, my Kishsaver was less, back in the day you couldn’t convert them yet! Can’t vouch for Ellipse’s remakes, but vintage Fs are gold.
Conclusion: If you’re not here for the journey and just want to buy one keyboard, make sure it’s a damn good one. If you want that to be a Unicomp, then never under any circumstances ever allow yourself to touch a Model F, or despair!
- Mandarbmax
- Location: USA
- Main keyboard: Unicomp Classic
- Main mouse: Steel Series Sensei Raw
- Favorite switch: Buckling Springs
I typed that post and this one on an F XT. It feels about the same and sounds much worse. Though I am a fan of the case, the little bit of extra travel in the switch, and NKRO is a nice little bonus feature. The layout of the F XT isn't too bad but I agree that model M layouts are generally better. I like my F XT a lot but it is a curiosity more than a true rival to my modded up unicomp.Muirium wrote: ↑04 Dec 2021, 09:33None of those hundreds of bucks went on Model Fs or Topres then, I’m guessing. If not: kiss goodbye to more!Mandarbmax wrote: ↑04 Dec 2021, 08:30I agree completely. The first keyboard I bought was a unicomp classic. Now half a decade, dozens of keyboards, and many hundreds of dollars later I still haven't found anything better.
I started out with a Model F XT as my first mech, which ruined me on Model M right from the start. There’s just no comparison. I love the size and layout of my (IBM original) SSKs, but even NIB is lousy compared to a Model F. If only the Model MF project hadn’t gone tits up.
The leap from M to F is as night and day as MX blue to Model M. And I’m saying this as someone whose most costly IBM keyboard was that NIB Model M SSK. Yes, my Kishsaver was less, back in the day you couldn’t convert them yet! Can’t vouch for Ellipse’s remakes, but vintage Fs are gold.
Conclusion: If you’re not here for the journey and just want to buy one keyboard, make sure it’s a damn good one. If you want that to be a Unicomp, then never under any circumstances ever allow yourself to touch a Model F, or despair!
I've tried topre at meet up and honestly I like good dome with slider designs better and I like mitsumi minimechs better than that so topre is pretty far down. Maybe if I could get topre for $10 a board I would be more interested in it since NKRO is a nice feature which membrane designs lack. Minimechs often have it though so other than the fact that topre is still made to this day it is pretty squarely beaten out imho.
In general I feel like model Fs and torpes are hyped up a lot and not "bad" per se but really aren't any better than the alternatives. You clearly disagree but this is my opinion on the matter.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Aye, pretty much opposite opinion to everything you just said.
Let’s find something to agree on: Unicomp’s legends are really bad. I’m not exactly wowed by IBM’s buckling spring caps either to be honest. One of the most boring profiles ever, and perhaps the daddy of them all. Massive backslide of theirs from beamspring’s juicy doubleshots.
If I could just have caps as good as Topre’s on my Kishsaver, damn it I would! Those are cylindricals done right, and dyesubbed to perfection too.
Let’s find something to agree on: Unicomp’s legends are really bad. I’m not exactly wowed by IBM’s buckling spring caps either to be honest. One of the most boring profiles ever, and perhaps the daddy of them all. Massive backslide of theirs from beamspring’s juicy doubleshots.
If I could just have caps as good as Topre’s on my Kishsaver, damn it I would! Those are cylindricals done right, and dyesubbed to perfection too.
- hellothere
- Location: Mesa, AZ USA
- Main keyboard: Lots
- Main mouse: CST2545W-RC
- Favorite switch: TopreAlpsHallEffectTopreAlpsHallEffectTopreAlps
FTFY.
I've bought several sets of keycaps from Unicomp and some look great and some look awful. I recently got a terminal M (1392595) that was missing a bunch of keycaps, so I went back into my box o' caps. I had a new set from Unicomp. The white alpha keys and top-line number keys looked great. The num pad white keys had the legends within millimeters of the top left edge. The lettering on all the F keys and the navigation column keys looked squished together.
I had another "regular" M set and the caps looked just fine, so I used some of those.
I don't specifically look for "vintage" Unicomp keyboards, but I know that other folks here have compared "vintage" Unicomp sets to identical sets made by IBM and Unicomp usually comes up short.
I agree that it would be nice if there were really nice Model M replacement caps out there. I'm pretty sure that there are at least as many IBM Fs and Ms out there as Alps and there are several Alps sets out there.
- Mandarbmax
- Location: USA
- Main keyboard: Unicomp Classic
- Main mouse: Steel Series Sensei Raw
- Favorite switch: Buckling Springs
Eh, the legends are fine. At least on my Unicomp. I've heard that they aren't super consistent. It isn't like legends matter a lot. Better to have even bad dyesubs than half shiny ABS double shots (smooth keycaps are fine as long as they are consistent; if you get ABS get them smooth). And boring as their profile may be I do like the curved assembly as opposed to sculpted caps. Quite ingenious really.Muirium wrote: ↑04 Dec 2021, 12:36Aye, pretty much opposite opinion to everything you just said.
Let’s find something to agree on: Unicomp’s legends are really bad. I’m not exactly wowed by IBM’s buckling spring caps either to be honest. One of the most boring profiles ever, and perhaps the daddy of them all. Massive backslide of theirs from beamspring’s juicy doubleshots.
If I could just have caps as good as Topre’s on my Kishsaver, damn it I would! Those are cylindricals done right, and dyesubbed to perfection too.
I do agree though that beamspring caps look much nicer. The beige plague was a blight upon the 80s and 90s.
What is so special about your topre caps? I haven't got one on hand to compare with.
I think that the big thing that the two of us can agree on is that keyboards are fun
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
I must admit I actually quite like the style of that time! Certainly when done right, not all the yellowed cheapo later stuff.Mandarbmax wrote: ↑05 Dec 2021, 22:11I do agree though that beamspring caps look much nicer. The beige plague was a blight upon the 80s and 90s.
photos-f62/learning-the-art-of-flash-an ... hotography
It did become an oppressive mono-culture, however, for much too long. So you do have a solid point.
They're sculpted and they're thick, and Topre still dyesubs them every bit as good as IBM did in the Model F era. The legends are fantastic, but I'll explain why I like the caps themselves better too.What is so special about your topre caps? I haven't got one on hand to compare with.
The thing I don't like about buckling spring caps, even on Model Fs, is that they're too thin and they're too flat. They're not cylindrical *enough* for me. The Shift keys are especially lacklustre, to my taste. I do appreciate the curved backplate concept, and make extensive use of it in my Model F mods, but the ultimate keyfeel isn't as comfortable to me as NMB or Topre's caps. I'm on about the top surface you touch rather than the underside, see. I find cylindrical IBM caps (and "OEM" profile MX caps) too flat, too similar to each other, and lacking personality. They all merge together a bit too much for my liking. Not at the cost of efficiency, I type just fine on both, but my fingers are happier on deeper dished cylindricals, like these:
Topre and NMB caps have more taper towards the top, as well. Cherry's own profile does too. Buckling spring caps are squarer as well as flatter. The gutter between adjacent keys is more V-shaped on the profiles I prefer.
As for material: Topre caps have a lot more body. You probably know what a world of difference thin vs. thick caps can make on a switch with more choices, like MX. I find Topre's particular PBT to have a drier feeling to the touch, which I really like a lot. NMB's almost as good, Cherry PBT a bit less so, and IBM not so much at all. Model F and M caps feel too thin for my liking, especially the alphas, they're too close to the mechanism in a key-feel way that's hard to describe. I want more PBT up there on top. They don't mellow the sound as thicker caps might. And I find they get a bit sweaty in the summer, like ABS. Only pumice-dry PBT will do in June!
Indeed! If it was really all about function over form, we'd have nothing worth talking about. We'd just type and never think twice about it.I think that the big thing that the two of us can agree on is that keyboards are fun
- Yasu0
- Location: hawaii
- Main keyboard: dull grey ibm selectric
- Main mouse: vertical ergonomic old man mouse
- Favorite switch: unicomp m, spring and rubber in perfect harmony.
Sure point and laugh at the dude trying to turn spam bot lemons into bot lemonade..
Used ps2 "AT" M and call it good. Plugs right in to a lot of modern systems without an adapter. Or just get a brand new usb one directly from the source. Either way you're only out around $100 USD. Probably outlive you, no rgb foolishness, good feel. They even still offer white cases for the 101/104/122 if you're not into the new black ones. Don't forget one of the not-ugly LED overlays.
https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/UNI041A
https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/LED
Or the other route is go with something modern.. which is fine too if that is ones preference.
- exxnewwb
Seriously though, Mu's advice not bad advice for newwbs. Even if it were meant in jest. Not like this hobby needs more new people coming in and hoarding a bunch of vintage shit for their 'collection' in any case. Like yours truly and many others did driving up prices. Yes do not try the F.
Used ps2 "AT" M and call it good. Plugs right in to a lot of modern systems without an adapter. Or just get a brand new usb one directly from the source. Either way you're only out around $100 USD. Probably outlive you, no rgb foolishness, good feel. They even still offer white cases for the 101/104/122 if you're not into the new black ones. Don't forget one of the not-ugly LED overlays.
https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/UNI041A
https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/LED
Or the other route is go with something modern.. which is fine too if that is ones preference.
- exxnewwb
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Thanks. Like most stuff I say, it is my honest opinion, I just like to find the humour in things as I write them. What could be more absurd than collecting perfectly functional keyboards and only ever using one of them at a time? Are they what we'll run out of in the apocalypse? Will normals trade them with you for food?
If the hobby really calls you, no advice is going to keep you out of the vortex. If you’re really lucky, you’ll even get to raid recycling centres with your own two hands! Oldschool. It’s the journey, see. My favourite boards all have stories.
- Palatino
- Location: England
- Main keyboard: Fluctuates.
- Main mouse: Of no interest.
- Favorite switch: Too early to tell.
I’m also becoming addicted to PBT (to touch only. Ingestion may follow if it comes on worse). Maybe I have moister than average fingertips (I’m not volunteering to collect that data) but the dryness of the caps is pleasant. Also gives a good sound, particularly in combination with dampened Alps: a good thud, like an Apple falling to earth.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Like what you like. That's my command!
For me it's definitely the other way around. The driest feeling caps for me are those PBT Alps-mount ones on Acers (otherwise unremarkable keyboards and switches), which are so rough to the touch they feel like chalk! They also have a high-pitched character to them; you can hear it when you take them off the keyboard to wash them, when they rub against one another in your hand they're quite squeaky. Not as much as POM but worlds apart from ABS.
Next after those are Topre caps. Less abrasive to the touch or squeaky when laid loose on the desk! They're my favourite, followed closely by NMB's Space Invader caps.
Cherry PBT caps aren't quite as nice materially, but their low profile (which keeps the spherical curve quite intact) is a treat. Matteo's legendary Granite set in SP's DSA profile is also full of character and PBT goodness. Great dishing, but a shame it has no rows.
Compared to these, IBM's PBT caps are barely PBT at all. No sense of that pumice dryness with them, and by buckling spring's design: they're so thin. And flat. I really don't like that about them. Especially given just how deep dished IBM's own doubleshots were that they replaced.
ABS is always smooth to my touch. Wears down so much faster, too. They're almost squeaky on the finger, I find. Though you're probably right (on your own terms) about the difference in sound between these two plastics. I suspect PBT has a higher speed of sound within it than ABS does, lending it a higher, stiffer pitch. Thick ABS, like SA profile, can work wonders on some keyboards' sound: emphasising the bass, especially of the thock. Topre doesn't need any assistance in that regard, though!
For me it's definitely the other way around. The driest feeling caps for me are those PBT Alps-mount ones on Acers (otherwise unremarkable keyboards and switches), which are so rough to the touch they feel like chalk! They also have a high-pitched character to them; you can hear it when you take them off the keyboard to wash them, when they rub against one another in your hand they're quite squeaky. Not as much as POM but worlds apart from ABS.
Next after those are Topre caps. Less abrasive to the touch or squeaky when laid loose on the desk! They're my favourite, followed closely by NMB's Space Invader caps.
Cherry PBT caps aren't quite as nice materially, but their low profile (which keeps the spherical curve quite intact) is a treat. Matteo's legendary Granite set in SP's DSA profile is also full of character and PBT goodness. Great dishing, but a shame it has no rows.
Compared to these, IBM's PBT caps are barely PBT at all. No sense of that pumice dryness with them, and by buckling spring's design: they're so thin. And flat. I really don't like that about them. Especially given just how deep dished IBM's own doubleshots were that they replaced.
ABS is always smooth to my touch. Wears down so much faster, too. They're almost squeaky on the finger, I find. Though you're probably right (on your own terms) about the difference in sound between these two plastics. I suspect PBT has a higher speed of sound within it than ABS does, lending it a higher, stiffer pitch. Thick ABS, like SA profile, can work wonders on some keyboards' sound: emphasising the bass, especially of the thock. Topre doesn't need any assistance in that regard, though!
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- Location: United States
- Main keyboard: Topre Type Heaven
- Main mouse: Logitech M705
- Favorite switch: Topre 45g
Topre keycaps are very nice. They're well made and a decent thickness. They need to fix the legend spacing on keycaps like Num Lock, Print Screen, Scroll Lock, and Pause/Break, though. They put way too much space in between the words. They could also stand to make their black keycaps just a tiny bit lighter. I have a couple of other sets of black on grey keycaps that are far more legible than Topre's black ones, and they look just as good, IMHO.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
What’s a Num Lock?
Realforce legends are slightly frustrating. In fact they’ve always been. The “Back Space” legend is Topre’s equivalent to Signature Plastics’ generations old insistence on “SHIF T”. I prefer the subtler way IBM handled the icons on their mods to Topre’s outlines. But then again Topre dyed them better, and their caps are nicer, so this swing easily beats that roundabout, for me.
Besides, the legends on the HHKB (black on white, as they should be, for my taste) escaped even those small errors.
Honestly, by far the best designed legends I’ve ever seen are Matteo’s dyesubs on DSA Granite. Truly magnificent attention to detail. Especially in the icon mods.
I’m proud to have been a persistent and annoying influence on his design process! One of the most tasteful sets I’ve ever had. If only Topre used legends like these. Or even Unicomp, in a parallel dimension where they ran their dyesub process when awake…
(Can’t find my old Novatouch in Granite photo set. The pic above is an early version before trades. Might have to pull out the Filco for an update. I optimised it nicely!)
Realforce legends are slightly frustrating. In fact they’ve always been. The “Back Space” legend is Topre’s equivalent to Signature Plastics’ generations old insistence on “SHIF T”. I prefer the subtler way IBM handled the icons on their mods to Topre’s outlines. But then again Topre dyed them better, and their caps are nicer, so this swing easily beats that roundabout, for me.
Besides, the legends on the HHKB (black on white, as they should be, for my taste) escaped even those small errors.
Honestly, by far the best designed legends I’ve ever seen are Matteo’s dyesubs on DSA Granite. Truly magnificent attention to detail. Especially in the icon mods.
I’m proud to have been a persistent and annoying influence on his design process! One of the most tasteful sets I’ve ever had. If only Topre used legends like these. Or even Unicomp, in a parallel dimension where they ran their dyesub process when awake…
(Can’t find my old Novatouch in Granite photo set. The pic above is an early version before trades. Might have to pull out the Filco for an update. I optimised it nicely!)
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- Location: United States
- Main keyboard: Topre Type Heaven
- Main mouse: Logitech M705
- Favorite switch: Topre 45g
SP uses those same legends on the SA Industrial keycaps of theirs that I have. They are lovely in every way. I currently have them on a Cherry G80-3494 with silent blacks. I had them on a Realforce RGB for a while, but they just didn't look right on that keyboard. They look much better on the G80, IMHO.
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- Location: The Netherlands
- Main keyboard: Tulip ATK 02.01.01 Tactile
- Main mouse: Logitech G603
- Favorite switch: Alps