Contact with Maltron.

[fossala]

I talked to maltron (martin) this morning. Thought I would share with you guys what was said.

Programmable keyboards are getting closer. The have made big steps in the last 2 days.

He was asking about layouts. Bepo mainly, maybe people that use Bepo should get in contact with them.

The rumours about maltron and kinesis that where on GH a few years ago are true. They went to do a group venture, had good communication. Sent kinesis 2 keyboards and communication stopped, 1 year later they came out with the classic. They said they are not holding grudges against them though.

I discussed with him the nice programmable of the kinesis and that they are looking at releasing a new model soon.

Also told him about this place, he said he would check it out. He honestly wants people opinions on what should happen. He also asked me about gaming but I don't game on the PC so maybe people that do should get into contact with him.

Finally, I'm sending some keyswitches to them it was only going to be red, but I may send them a full set. I want to see them offering different keyswitch models, it would be an easy way to add option to reach more people.

[Vierax]

Greetings

I am not interested personally 'cause I'm a DIY man but I relayed the information on the bépo forum. Now we'll see if people in the heart of the future association are ready to welcome a third manufacturer who takes the risk to sell a bépo layout KB.

BTW thx for the news

[Icarium]

I would be interested in buying just a case from them. Not sure if they could sell them at a reasonable price or want to but considering that switches are easy to get in group buys and I want my controller to be programmable anyway that would be the ideal route for me.

[fossala]

They are making programmable ones soon anyway.

[Input Nirvana]

A gaming friendly, or gaming option design/features may help get exposure and drive design But I'm not a gamer, so I'm not the most qualified to offer opinions.

[Sunspots]

I think the main selling point that makes a keyboard a "gaming" keyboard is the aesthetics and programmability (mostly macros), extra programmable buttons are some times also a big selling point.
As a gamer myself, I really feel the lack of ergonomics in gaming keyboard but I don't really know about others.
Also, since "gaming" keyboards are marketed with that label, they seem to be more appealing to a gaming crowd, no matter the specifications of the keyboard.

My 2 cents on gaming keyboards.

[Input Nirvana]

Don't forget some acute angles, bold colors and logos.

[Vierax]

you forgot numpad, full retro led lighting, USB VelKRO ultra pudding 1000 GHz, USB Hub, etc… LULZ

[Input Nirvana]

No, I didn't forget, I just have no idea

Although I'm totally befuddled as to why there can't be a better way to have any keyboard wireless via bluetooth.

[Jim66]

It's nice that Maltron are taking the time to answer your questions honestly. I'm pleased he's/she's wanting opinions on what they should be focusing on; here's what I think.

In a nutshell: The build quality/attention to detail/aesthetics are adequate for those suffering from RSI but non-RSI populations (e.g., gamerz, ergonomic mechanical keyboard enthusiasts, etc...) will be left disappointed.

Why...?

Here's a hypothetical opinion from an RSI sufferer: "Maltron have obviously spent a great deal of time and effort researching the 'ergonomics of their keyboard. The Maltron layout, while difficult to learn, is far superior to QWERTY and the case/key placement is great!!! I'm so pleased that I complained to my HR department about my RSI and they bought me this keyboard! I'm so happy that I can carry on doing my job, I don't care how much they cost, I would defo have paid the price. OMFG, HAhaHFaHFhAHDFfjlsdfkjlskjdfolwjeruio."

Now here's my evaluation of a Maltron dual handed keyboard as a non-RSI sufferer who likes ergonomic keyboards: "Yeah, I've read the papers (their conference papers not peer-reviewed academic papers) on their website. The keyboard feels very 'ergonomic', I'm sure they've spend a lot of time and effort researching layouts and key placement etc; the layout is nice to type on. I have some complains though: the keyboard is too light, it slides around of my desk. The case flexes when I rest my hands on it. I pulled a keycap off the other day and the switch came out with it, the switch is just pushed into the whole which has been cut by hand using a stanley knife/dremel; the whole is slightly too big. Some of the other wholes for the switches still have excess plastic around their edges from where they were cut. I guess the overall 'finish' of the product feels very home brewed. Let's be clear, I'm suggesting home brewed not handmade or boutique. Perhaps this keyboard is more about function over form?!? It's bloody expensive though, it cost almost double when I paid for my Kinesis advantage and that is built to a much better standard; that's disappointing!"

Conclusion? Those suffering from RSI most likely overlook these, trivial nit-picking flaws as the keyboard allows them to work without pain. Non-RSI populations are left thinking, "I've paid a lot for this, it kinda doesn't feel like much time has gone into making the product feel nice. Why haven't they developed a neater way of making the case, why haven't you chosen a different type of plastic that doesn't go a significantly different colour when sand the rough edges down? Why haven't you thought of a neater way of attaching the bottom of the case?"

RSI suffers are willing to overlook these problems, I don't think that non-RSI populations would. Chasing gamers and other markets would be a mistake until the product looks and more importantly feels more finished and professional.

[mintberryminuscrunch]

They should take a look at professional, especially Korean, sc2 gamers. There are plenty complaining about RSI

[fossala]

I have to agree with everything Jim said.

[MarkWilliamson]

I think I contributed to the rumours in GH by creating a thread where I asked about them - nobody seemed to have terribly specific knowledge at the time, so it's quite interesting to get a response about the particular circumstances. It's sad to see business dealings go that way in terms of collaboration gone bad.

I now have both a Kinesis Advantage and an old Maltron (I think it's a type 89), both of which I picked up second hand after watching eBay for a while. Jim66's assessment of the appearance of the product (and how it might impact first-time buyers) seems reasonably accurate to me. In terms of product feel, the Kinesis is like a high end keyboard you might buy in a shop - in style, colouring, materials, etc it is like a mass market product. The Maltron is not as "polished" in terms of looking like a consumer item, although it does have its own charms for an enthusiast. They're both nice products in their own niches, though.

It would be nice if the Maltron felt a bit more solid in the hands - I would think that a heavier base and some internal supports between the base and the shell would help somewhat. It doesn't really matter when typing, though and I do think (even typing Qwerty) that my Maltron is probably nicer ergonomically than my Kinesis. That's partly because I think Maltron's layout changes are worthwhile and partly because the thumb clusters seem better thought out. Disregarding my personal inclination to support Maltron's business as the original innovators in this keyboard shape, if I was buying new out of my own pocket I'm not sure the Maltron's strengths would be enough to justify the extra outlay. If an insurer or employer was paying and were willing to shell out for it, the Maltron's design might win perhaps me over; not having RSI, though, I can't really judge what someone in a position of medical need might prefer (and obviously these things vary from person to person).

Maltron does, amongst other benefits, also advertise their ability to make custom keyboards (e.g. they made a mini of their contoured keyboard for someone, which looks quite cool). Getting custom ergo keyboards, particularly from a leader in the field, would be pretty difficult anywhere else!

[MarkWilliamson]

Regardless of how weighty (or otherwise) the Maltron is, I understand it's quite reliable long term. My second hand one is about ten years old, though I don't know how many of those it was in a cupboard for. There was a broken solder connection, which was easily home-repaired (the point-to-point matrix makes it relatively obvious how things work, so long as too many wires haven't come loose!).

Kinesis did once tell me they could supply replacement parts if I did my usual trick of filling my keyboard with beverage, so I guess that's also longevity-friendly. I don't know how they do in terms of lasting without maintenance, though they're also Cherry switches, which I imagine bodes well for a lifetime of typing.

On the topic of the Maltron's solid feel (or lack thereof), I've occasionally considered getting a new base (and perhaps internal supports) lasercut out of acrylic to make the keyboard feel a bit more solid.

[Jim66]

Yeah, it seems that your analysis of Maltron keyboards is very similar to mine. I completely agree with you that the Maltron has it's own charms to the enthusiast!! I just wish they'd take some time to bring overall design of the product out of the "standardised prototype" phase.

Come on Maltron, you've been at this for 20 odd years. I'm sure we could club together and get it done here!!!

[Input Nirvana]

Is the keyboard programming done internally, like Kinesis, or with software?

[MarkWilliamson]

I seem to recall the Maltron guy who was posting on GH may have suggested that the shape of the Maltron is hard to achieve without vacuum forming; it is fairly different to the Kinesis in the shape and orientation of the bowls. I think that vacuum forming in turn would limit the case construction somewhat towards thin plastic. That in itself doesn't preclude adding support structure inside the case, mind you.

Other techniques like injection moulding does, as I understand it, have significant setup costs - maybe they just don't want to get into that, since they've evidently found a business model that works for them. Still, like you I also feel slightly sad that the board is not more polished and product-y.

[Vierax]

That's a thing I talked this night on another forum : thermoforming is as far cheaper than injection and with composite mold it is the smart way for small series producing as Maltron does.

[adrien239]

I asked them a year ago (so do with Martin) but they seem to be very slowwwwwwww

good idea!!!




I changed the layout manualy

[fossala]

They really seemed interested in getting something done about it.

[adrien239]

Excellent I'm interested

[fossala]

Excellent I'm interested

Email and tell them then!

[Vierax]

Excellent I'm interested

Email and tell them then!

There's already Ms Zietek from bepo.fr who's dealing with them.

[fossala]

Martin was the one who brought it up with me, not the other way round. He must be interested.

[Malkavian]

I have been wanting a Maltron 3D keyboard with Maltron layout (and small qwerty) since 10 years. Now I could pay his high price (yes I know, they last decades so it's fair) but I have felt disappointed when I read that Matron keyboards only support two keys pressed at a time. I'd like to use it for everything, including gaming, so it would be great if PCD Maltron makes one that support 6 or even more keypresses at a time. About being programmable it's not a need for me, but I understand that for some people could be great.

Any news from PCD Maltron?

PD: Yes, I will write to PCD Maltron to tell them this (you can insist me ).

(Edited to remove a writing error)

[hoggy]

Unless you want to use the keyboard for games, I doubt you'll find the 2kro a problem. The model m only supports 2kro. Admittedly, the Maltron costs a tad more...

[rodtang]

The Maltron should be easier to mod to NKRO than the Model M

[fossala]

It's strange. Maltron keyboards have diodes in, isn't that something used for NKRO?

[rodtang]

It's strange. Maltron keyboards have diodes in, isn't that something used for NKRO?

Do you have a picture of one that has?
This one doesn't look like it has any:
http://www.maltron.com/images/stories/kw_open.jpg

[fossala]

Using jim66 picture as I don't have one, hope he doesn't mind. I did remeber diodes but it looks like it's only on a few switches.