Introducing the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard

[mondalaci]

It’s an interesting effort, and I’m glad people are experimenting with new keyboards, but to be honest several of the features seem a bit gimmicky, and the rest is mostly copied from a standard keyboard layout, warts and all.

Good design features:
* More keys pressable with the thumbs
* Split halves (so can be separated, rotated, tented, and tilted)
* Abolish caps lock and put something useful there (mouse movement is a nice feature, though it needs to be implemented right, which could be tricky)
* Arrow keys via modifier + home row. F keys slightly more reachable
* Fully programmable

Serious problems copied over from a standard keyboard:
* Typical key stagger makes some keys uncomfortable to press (especially the way most people are taught to type the left hand bottom row)
* Delete key is very far to reach; this is IMO one of the worst problems on a standard keyboard
* Right shift is unnecessarily far from pinky home position (and asymmetrical to the left)
* Ctrl key is still in a terrible place to reach for
* backslash, plus, minus, backtick take substantial reaching, and number row is still enough of a reach to be slow and error-prone
* No real accommodation for the shape of human hands.

New features which seem gimmicky:
* The split halves joining via a connector built into the halves instead of a cable. This seems like it could easily get corroded or break, and frankly seems like a gimmick rather than a particularly useful feature
* LED screen (could be marginally handy I guess, but meh)
* Super keys are pretty hard to reach, and not especially useful when you can make arbitrary layers using other keys via programmable firmware
* Keys below the spacebar seem like mouse switches or something silly: you should just put a real full-size keyswitch there instead.

For the same price, I’d advocate someone just get the new Matias ergo keyboard instead, which is more ergonomic, in my opinion, and has nicer (again IMO) keyswitches. (Although programmability is something it’s missing which is super nice.) Or, once it’s available, keyboard.io.

P.S. ISO enter and european layouts in general suck. Don’t listen to those guys.

Thanks for your super-detailed input, you are clearly an ergonomic advocate. We could surely incorporate some of your ideas into a future, more ergonomic version of our keyboard. We'd rather stick to ANSI for the first version, though.

[jacobolus]

among other things, they are basically impossible to program with

Impossible? I doubt that. I know plenty of developers, who happen to be users of Czech QWERTZ. Inconvenient? Sometimes.

I know guys who wrote code on punched cards, so sure, it’s possible. How about this rephrasing: anyone writing code on an ISO keyboard is a masochist.

[jacobolus]

Thanks for your super-detailed input, you are clearly an ergonomic advocate. We could surely incorporate some of your ideas into a future, more ergonomic version of our keyboard. We'd rather stick to ANSI for the first version, though.

If there’s one thing internet forums are good at, it’s providing opinions, solicited or not. Glad if they are sometimes appreciated.

To be honest, I think you’re going to have a difficult uphill slog, both with getting user adoption, and with handling manufacturing, which is much much much harder than anyone ever thinks up front.

I’m not holding my breath for even a V1, much less a V2.

But also don’t let pessimism stand in your way. I wish you all the best luck getting your product built and sold!

[scottc]

among other things, they are basically impossible to program with

Impossible? I doubt that. I know plenty of developers, who happen to be users of Czech QWERTZ. Inconvenient? Sometimes.

I know guys who wrote code on punched cards, so sure, it’s possible. How about this rephrasing: anyone writing code on an ISO keyboard is a masochist.

I call bullshit. I can't vouch for other ISO variants, but UK-ISO is perfectly usable for coding. I personally swap between ANSI and UK-ISO depending on which machine I'm using, and it's completely pain-free - all done in muscle memory.

[jacobolus]

You’re right, UK ISO layout is okay. Since it’s basically ANSI with a dopey enter key and a few characters moved. Putting straight quotation marks on shift-2 is silly, but not the end of the world. The far-away left shift kind of sucks, especially for people with small or inflexible hands, but it’s also not the end of the world. Some other European layouts are really annoying though.

[cookie]

Verry interesting keyboard! I love the split spacebar design, this is something I've planed for my "Custom" keyboard for quite long time. My left thumb is like never in use... thats so wastefull. I also like the posibillity to split the keybaord into 2 pieces. This would have been even more ergonomic with a non staggered layout but this will make the keyboard wider when attached together. I must say that I slightly disagree with some key placements, for example the backspace and ctrl. I am absolutely in love where they are on my HHKB, and I believe this is the right place for such dominant keys like those.

I must say that this keyboard is not visualy appealing to me. The compact design and simplicity get struck by the display and this triangular head. I believe that the beauty of 60% keyboards lies in their simple and clear form. The UHK kind of breaks out of this frame, which can be seen positive or negative. Depends on your intention.

Anyway, it is a verry nice keyboard that you guys can be proud of!

[Findecanor]

there are actually ISO returns that would fit (SP has them). pretty rare though.

SP has ISO Return keys that are 1.25 wide at the top - 0.25 too wide. They do have J-shaped Return keys that would fit though.

[European layouts] are basically impossible to program with

I have always written C (-like programming languages) in Swedish layout, having to use Alt Gr-combos for braces and brackets. If you are used to it, no problem. I am also used to key combos for additional characters that are not part of the Swedish language, such as £ ↓↑→←, þ, ß, etc.

I actually love that the split compact mechanical keyboard can snap together with steel rods and magnets. I have had that idea myself, but found it a bit difficult to engineer, and there is also the cost of metal switch plates.
6P4C connectors have been discussed in the ErgoDox threads on Geekhack, and has emerged as the best choice for a split keyboard to have: replacement cables are really cheap and custom cables can be built at home.
Let me suggest that the next version will not only support ISO but also Bluetooth, for use with a laptop or Windows tablet.

[mondalaci]

@cookie: Thank you for your feedback! Regarding key placements please keep in mind that the keymap is 100% reconfigurable. As for the shape given that we had to make some space for the connectors of the bridge cable we opted for this triangular shape which is the most minimalistic and cleanest option that exist.

@Findecanor: It's crazy that Ergodox also uses 6P4C! We used to use S-Video connectors for our second generation prototype but those were bulky and less reliable. Regarding bluetooth you read our mind

[vivalarevolución]

What competitors? Axios, keyboard.io and ErgoDox and its forks are supposed to be open source, fit in the same price range and are actually rather ergonomic... and don't have tacky names. Then there's Matias Ergo Pro. Anything else?

Out of the above I only consider Matias a competitor. I respect the other projects, too, but I consider them DIY keyboards.

Regarding respect, constructive criticism is welcome, desctructive criticism not so much. You either use less offensive words than "tacky" or this conversation between us is over.

I would be open to all criticism, because somebody might be pointing out a fatal flaw in your design. Perhaps the suggestions should be considered for the first design rather than just considering them for the next board.

Also, it is unwise to label the Keyboardio as a DIY. They are getting funding in a business incubator and seem to have some connections to the Bay Area tech industry.

[jacobolus]

I also think the name is pretty silly, but it might appeal to the teenage-male-video-gamer crowd, which seems to be the target audience here.

[mondalaci]

Also, it is unwise to label the Keyboardio as a DIY. They are getting funding in a business incubator and seem to have some connections to the Bay Area tech industry.

Thanks for the info, I stand corrected.

[DerpyDash_xAD]

I feel most in the keyboard enthusiast crowd will be turned off by the name alone - I know I was. People are strongly affected by first impressions, and the name Ultimate Hacking Keyboard gives me a bad first impression. This may only have limited mainstream success due to this - in my opinion you should change the name.

[Muirium]

My first thought was that this was a redesign of the HHKB: one of the most prestigious boards on the market today. The name definitely sounds like a reference. But there's no obvious similarity.

[Grond]

Yes, I also think the name choice is unfortunate. You have a pretty original and unique product here, but the name makes it sounds like a knockoff.

[mondalaci]

I'm honestly getting interested about what's so wrong with the name. Do people think that it's an imitation of HHKB? Is that it? (For your information 7 years ago when I came up with the name I had no idea that HHKB existed.)

[scottc]

I agree about the name. It does sound a lot like the Happy Hacking Keyboard (which is almost always abbreviated as HHKB, another similarity). For me, the word "Ultimate" just reminds me of things like a Linux distribution called "Ultimate Edition" which was an overly flashy Ubuntu derivative:



I think that the HHKB gets away with using the "Hacking" moniker due to its age and being the first to do it. Think of the 90s movie Hackers, released in 1995. The original HHKB was made in 1996. Nowadays, the word "Hacking" is probably more widespread and used more often for ridiculous things (mundane bullshit like "he hacked my Facebook page and shared a status saying that I'm gay, omg!" == I left myself logged in to Facebook on my laptop and I don't have a password). I think that "hacking" has just become an overly-used cheesy phrase, instead of its earlier uses. Just my theory.

There are a lot of really nice ideas in this keyboard (optional split layout, 60%, programmable, open source, to name a few) but lots of the features are deal-breakers for me (layout not supporting keycap replacements, awkward key sizes, big logo, and the screen isn't my cup of tea at all). Perhaps UHKBV2 will be even better if some of the community's groans are taken into account.

[JBert]

While I personally think UHKB might be somewhat too close to HHKB and "Ultimate" a bit too strong a word to use in a brand name, I would like to offer a few counter-examples to this discussion:

• Das keyboard: Literally "The keyboard", these guys wanted to act big and give an air of German engineering.
• Art Lebedev's Optimus: Literally translated as "the best", this bling-bling keyboard also wanted to strive for the title (though their price is their worst enemy).

Likely most people here know of them but forgot how preposterous their names sound. Just to say that naming might matter to us, but not to everyone else.

[JBert]

[snip] lots of the features are deal-breakers for me ([snip] big logo, [snip]).

Just something I noticed: seems the logo is only on the back and on the intterconnec-cable. I think you can replace the cable with a random 6P4C cable without logo you won't even see it's a UHKB.

[JBert]

To be honest, I'm afraid I'll not be buying this keyboard yet though.

For starters, I hate creditcards and that's exactly what Kickstarter requires. I don't know if there are other options.

Second I have mixed feelings about the layout. I'm an ISO user and might miss that button next to Enter (in my case the one next to left shift gets less use), but then again this keyboard does have a lot of modifier keys to program a replacement, and I do occasionally use an ANSI one. I do like that the Fn layer almost matches my preferred one, and the Super button on the right could be a nice Fn key for palming.

Third, I prefer MX Black or Clear (I am a buckling spring user at home). It likely will be around $250 and DIY, which I'm not sure about that I'm going through with it. I still have some money sitting in the hands of the GH60 group buy organisers.
On the other hand, I understand scaling one or two versions to as much users should be your focus right now. I wonder though if anything can be done for people like me as the keyboards will likely be soldered and "capped" automatically.

[webwit]

It's a tacky name. Imagine if the Lamborghini brand was named the Ultimate Super Car.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I'm honestly getting interested about what's so wrong with the name. Do people think that it's an imitation of HHKB? Is that it? (For your information 7 years ago when I came up with the name I had no idea that HHKB existed.)

Marketing is perhaps an impossibly fine balance.

"Ultimate" is a particularly inappropriate term for a market so tremendously subjective. There is no such thing as an "ultimate" keyboard: what's perfect for one person is a nightmare to another. Even if you get the layout right, the switch will be wrong, and so on.

"Ultimate" also means that it cannot be bettered or beaten. There will never be a Mk II by definition: you can't be "more ultimate". Even if the goal was purely objective, it is unlikely that you would be 100% free from compromises to save on money. There will always be something you can do better for more money — for example it could be the first keyboard to implement my idea of a standard keyboard configuration protocol for platform-independent GUI/console visual/interactive programming. Or ISO support for people who don't want to be switching back and forth between ISO and ANSI all day when they can't convert every computer around them to ANSI.

"Ultimate" really is a tacky name. It's a show-off, bragging name that will only appeal to people either too stupid or too young to give proper consideration to real-life tradeoffs in design and manufacture and the realisation that the name is incorrect. In terms of style, it's like calling it the "Wicked Keyboard" or "Totally Rad Keyboard" (or "sick" or whatever retarded term people use now).

Also, the abbreviation "UHK" (reads like "ugh") is just silly.

[002]

Haha! Tell us how you really feel, Daniel.

[Hypersphere]

"Unique" might serve, as there are many ways to make something unique without saying that each way is ultimate.

However, the name need not get in the way of a good product. The "Happy Hacking Keyboard Professional 2" is a rather unwieldy name, but I bought one anyway.

[cookie]

@Daniel: I think you've nailed it!

[Grond]

I'm honestly getting interested about what's so wrong with the name. Do people think that it's an imitation of HHKB? Is that it? (For your information 7 years ago when I came up with the name I had no idea that HHKB existed.)

I do believe you, still my first impression about the name (before seeing the picture of the keyboard) was indeed that the keyboard was some HHKB imitation.

[Broadmonkey]

The problem is not at all the "Hacking" part of the name, it's the "Ultimate" I find both arrogant and ignorant at the same time.

[cookie]

Come on guys, As much as we dislike the name, we have to give this thing credit for what it is, a fully programmable, 60% split design keyboard! I remember 3 years ago we would throw our monay at him

I wouldn't swap my HHKB's for that thing anyway, it is simply not appealing enough.

[Muirium]

I know how attached you can get to a project name once you've been working on it long enough. Been there a few times myself! The trouble with this one is just how negatively it's going down here, in the active keyboarding circles you need to get early support from the most.

Ultimate isn't great, as Daniel did a good job describing, but it's the Hacking Keyboard part that bothers me. To use a car analogy like Webwit's, it's like Tesla had turned up but called Terrari, or Torsche! Or I guess most exactly: TMW. It sounds just bizarre to use someone else's already endearingly awkward name like that. I thought HHKB was a stupid name until I looked up its origin: aha, Japanese English! Like Nintendo's Famicom: not a Japanese word, but Japanese imagined English that was too awkward to use in the English speaking world. Scott took down "hacking keyboard", and it would have been a silly name even if the HHKB didn't already exist. But it does!

What annoys me is the arrogance of stepping on someone else's name. So what if you hadn't heard of it? So what if Elon Musk never heard of Ferrari or BMW! Ignorance in your own competitors is arrogance. There's nothing good about it. Continuing regardless, once you do find out, is merely stubbornness, not a positive.

The best thing to do is to change the name. Otherwise you'll have HHKB related questions coming up, again and again, everywhere this keyboard is discussed, with no end in sight. It's the nature of the brand.

[ne0phyte]

My opinion was already reflected here, but I thought more people voicing their opinion might help you with the decision whether to keep the name or to listen to a bunch of keyboard guys in some forum.

I also think that the Ultimate part is too much. Ultimate is something I associate with gaming gear or false marketing claims. The name really makes it kind of a toy and the similarity to the Happy Hacking Keyboard is definitely there.

Considering that your target audience will look at the keyboard and at first think that it's pretty weird special (small, split design, tons of features) the name should sound unique and interesting. Something that makes people look up the specs instead of giving away what it is (or claims to be the ultimate version of). I am sure it won't be cheap, so no young gamers, poor students etc. who would potentially buy it. Then again, adults would probably rather buy a, e.g. "CompacKey Split", than the ULTIMATE HACKING KEYBOARD for haxxors. Just make it sound more serious.

So much text. I really like the keyboard and I don't even mind the design, but the display should get some shade so it's invisible when it's turned off. Open source firmware, compact, split, mechanical. What else do you need? A trackpoint maybe
One last thing: That thin usb cable that connects the two halves... Every single device/cable like that I had broke. From my experience those retractable cables aren't built to last but then again you may have some thick, quality one that withstands a lot of wear and tear.

[Muirium]

As we're on to new names now, I'd use Twin as part of it. Sounds good even to someone who hasn't heard of split layouts and needs a description.

Definitely scope for Gemini here too. Wonder if anyone has a copyright on The Gemini for a keyboard name?