Beam Spring vs Topre

[Ace]

A while back, I asked how Beam Springs felt compared to Buckling Springs, and got some great insight as to how these beasts work. Apparently there are even ongoing efforts to bring BS (Beam Springs) into a modern layout (let me know if there's been any progress on that, Mu). It just got me thinking: The ultimate switches in modern day can be agreed upon by most as being Topre. There were some indirect comparisons in my previous thread, but I thought I'd ask it plain and simple: Which is better, Beam Springs or Topre?
I mean this in terms of feel, price, feasibility, practicality ect. But Mostly feel.

[Muirium]

Ungh. Don't make me choose AGAIN!

For those interested, here's the earlier topic:

http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/bea ... t9961.html

This time round, I'd say there's really strong advantages to both sides. Topre has awesome dyesubs, beamspring has epic doubleshots. (Both of them have nice, smaller than usual, contact areas for your fingers; incidentally.) Topre has a wonderful swing to it, with a nice gentle landing. Beamspring has a magnificent swing in its force curve as well, which ends with a resolute, classic click. Topre can be among the quietest mechs around, in its damped Type-S form. Beamspring can be the loudest of the mechs, when the solenoid is on!

The big difference is simply age. Beamspring is from so far back that its layouts are all downright weird. Topre is still made today, and so you can get it in a range of fine choices, including the sublime little HHKB. Beamspring is downright gigantic, so its keyboards are all super thick just to house it. Topre is pretty slender, which allows the HHKB to be just as thin as any modern mech. Beamspring is downright impossible to find spare parts for, you've got to collect a donor. Topre, well, okay it's not much better. You've heard about dome swaps, right? Costly madness.

Neither of them is as custom or mod friendly as discrete switches like MX. Both of them have exotic cap mounts, so can't play in those groupbuy games either. Oh and they'll both cost you a fair old penny. But goodness me if they're not the best switches of them all, each in their own way.

[Firebolt1914]

In terms of practicality, feasibility, and ease of purchase, topre wins. The layout on most beamspring keyboards is awful, the only one that is somewhat decent is the displaywriter. They're also gigantic, as the switch itself is fairly large. You would also need to use a converter.

I'm not sure about feel, as I have not tried a beamspring keyboard. Someone else can answer that question . IIRC, beamspring is just slightly cheaper than topre.

[mr_a500]

I've never tried Topre - and judging by the prices, I probably never will. I have a few beam springs and I've never had a problem with strange layouts. As long as it's QWERTY and isn't missing arrow keys or basic things like "?", then that's good enough for me.

[Muirium]

You would also need to use a converter.

Actually, you need to fit a whole replacement controller. (Yay Xwhatsit!) And configure it, which can be hair raising… but yeah, beamsprings don't quite come in USB, or PS/2. Another point to Topre.

Ultimately, the correct answer to this question is you need both. You'll never know, otherwise. It's not a simple rivalry where one side wins.

[Firebolt1914]

Yes, it's like comparing apples to oranges; they're two totally different things.

[jacobolus]

The ultimate switches in modern day can be agreed upon by most as being Topre.

Where by “most” you mean “a small handful of rabid fans”. The rest of us find Topre uninspiring.

[Halvar]

Which is better, a 1963 Porsche 911 or a 2014 BMW?

One thing is clear: in 20 years no 2014 BMWs will even work any more, and no one will care...

[Ace]

As per usual, thanks for the replies and information. I'll be posting some more threads involving BS board later; I'm still trying to figure out if it's possible for me. Even with a ton of help, I'm still not sure if I'll be able to get one off the ground, so to speak.

[seebart]

Which is better, a 1963 Porsche 911 or a 2014 BMW?

One thing is clear: in 20 years no 2014 BMWs will even work any more, and no one will care...

True, a comparison is far fetched. But of course the switch "feel" can be compared.

[002]

Which is better, a 1963 Porsche 911 or a 2014 BMW?

One thing is clear: in 20 years no 2014 BMWs will even work any more, and no one will care...

This analogy goes out the window when you consider the fact that there are fully functioning 30-year old Topre keyboards. People seem to be in this mindset that Topre is a new switch, but it's not. It's been around since the early 80s and hasn't really changed much.

[Halvar]

... yeah, like Cherry MX, Alps and rubberdome membrane - all 80's designs. Why did so much happen in the 80's in keyboards? Because of the PC revolution. Why do we still use 80's designs? Because of the rubberdome revolution of the 90s.

But beam springs are 10 years older, an obsolete design from the mainframe era.

[002]

I feel like the point you were trying to make is that the keyboards will just stop working and no-one will care or something? Just because something is new doesn't mean that it can't obtain some sort of 'classic' status later on (and be appreciated!). I don't know much about cars really but I am pretty sure there would some produced in the 80s, 90s and 00s that will go on to be classics.

I don't like threads like this because they have a tendency to devolve into some kind of fanboy shit-slinging contest. Leave that to the videogame console fanatics.

[Ace]

And now you have what I like to call the "gaming revolution". Mechanical keyboards have been popularized for gaming in the last 3 years; you had specialized rubber domes before then. Companies have made massive profits off of the gaming branding. And now that Cherry's patents have expired, we're starting to see "gaming optimized" linear switches fly from every company in every imaginable direction. Still, I suppose some innovation is better than no innovation. at least Cherry is still pushing for progress in other ways.

[Ace]

I feel like the point you were trying to make is that the keyboards will just stop working and no-one will care or something? Just because something is new doesn't mean that it can't obtain some sort of 'classic' status later on (and be appreciated!). I don't know much about cars really but I am pretty sure there would some produced in the 80s, 90s and 00s that will go on to be classics.

I don't like threads like this because they have a tendency to devolve into some kind of fanboy shit-slinging contest. Leave that to the videogame console fanatics.

I try to avoid that; out in a way, you're absolutely correct. Asking people what switches they think feel better is bound to get me some biased results. I especially hate it when people act like there's no competition; like the two things can't be compared in any fair way. This thread is an excellent example. Some of you claimed that there is no comparison, while based on what I've heard, the most accurate way to describe Beam Springs to those that haven't used them is like they're more linear-like Topres.
Basically, most would say it's quite the opposite.

[Halvar]

I feel like the point you were trying to make is that the keyboards will just stop working and no-one will care or something? Just because something is new doesn't mean that it can't obtain some sort of 'classic' status later on (and be appreciated!). I don't know much about cars really but I am pretty sure there would some produced in the 80s, 90s and 00s that will go on to be classics.

I don't like threads like this because they have a tendency to devolve into some kind of fanboy shit-slinging contest. Leave that to the videogame console fanatics.

Sorry, I'm only playing this for the fun of it ... the question is absurd enough to not take this seriously. I don't care for the Topre feel much myself, but if I had to get a keyboard for everyday work, I would of course prefer a Realforce to a beam spring board by far. Same with the BMW. The reason to get a beam spring board is so different from the reason to get a Topre board that indeed it doesn't make sense to compare them. That's what I tried to say with my car comparison.

As for the potential to become a classic people will want to use in 20 years, I think that Topre rubber deteriorates with use, so I don't think there's any chance that they will work as long as a beam spring board. Which is by design. The HHKB may become a classic but not for its switches alone.

tl;dr: get both.

[002]

Thanks Halvar, that was a good response and it made me smile.

Edit: Regarding the deterioration of the sheet; I think this is something that is not a huge problem. The problem is obtaining a replacement for the dome sheet. Topre keyboards are expensive and you can't buy parts separately so that makes restoring them a bit cost-prohibitive. I will say though that I have seen people having to restore IBM keyboards too, so it's not like they are indestructible. They are just cheaper to restore.

[Muirium]

I don't like threads like this because they have a tendency to devolve into some kind of fanboy shit-slinging contest. Leave that to the videogame console fanatics.

Ain't that the truth!

The thing is that switch preferences are immensely subjective. I'm sure some people do honestly like MX brown, but I can barely get my head around it! And I know some people like to piss on Topre as a sport, wherever it comes up, for reasons of their own that they're certainly not saying in their text. Sounds a bit like the venom Amiga guys had for Apple after Commodore collapsed but Apple survived. Or as its called elsewhere: therapy!

Software platforms are harsher rivals, to be honest. Cherry MX's monoculture popularity isn't crippling Topre or Matias or Unicomp, in fact the rising tide of mechanical keyboards has lifted all ships. I'd never even heard of Topre before I got into all this. But when the PlayStation came along and attracted so many developers, Sega was strangled good and hard and had to abandon console hardware at the brink of death! I can sympathise why that nightmare (and all the others quite like it) still affects people decades later. Post Traumatic Platform Death Disorder. We're thankfully free from that in keyboards.

Then come the car analogies. Gods help us…

... yeah, like Cherry MX, Alps and rubberdome membrane - all 80's designs. Why did so much happen in the 80's in keyboards? Because of the PC revolution. Why do we still use 80's designs? Because of the rubberdome revolution of the 90s.

But beam springs are 10 years older, an obsolete design from the mainframe era.

Very true. Topre's directly comparable, generation-wise, to Model F, not beamspring. Though as neither IBM capsense generation is still made now, the point's quite academic.

I tiptoed around Topre's age earlier in this thread because the obvious way into it isn't via vintage boards but brand new ones sold at retail today. That's very much to Topre's advantage, naturally, over switches that were end of lifed by their manufacturer 30 years ago!

The rise of shitty keyboards — The Great Cheapening — is a topic that lurks behind everything we do here on our little island far out in the sea. Keyboards in general may be slowly declining thanks to smartphones and tablets taking the world, but the fact the vast, overwhelming, astronomical majority of them are total disposable junk the moment they're assembled… that's still a great challenge to everything we value. Why is typing so poorly valued by so very many? At home as well as work.

The strongest theme I get from talking to non-keyboard people is that they want their boards integrated into laptops. And they want their laptops, phones, tablets, desktops, televisions, etc. to be as thin as credit cards. Thinness and lightness is so far ahead of typing feel to them that they consider the hefty hardware I type on the height of steampunk retro! Even the HHKB looks like a brick to their eyes. And next to a modern Apple keyboard, I do see it.

[Halvar]

Some of you claimed that there is no comparison, while based on what I've heard, the most accurate way to describe Beam Springs to those that haven't used them is like they're more linear-like Topres.

Okay, if we limit the comparison to feel (which you didn't do in you OP), I personally prefer the beam spring feel. Typing on a beam spring is fun, it's a very balanced feel and the sound is very nice. Like with Buckling springs, you get an audible as well as tactile feedback that tells you you're getting something done. You're a typing pianist. Topre is very different to me, I don't agree that they feel similar. Some people described typing on Topre as "the feeling of oneness with your keyboard", that feeling that the keyboard disappears from your thoughts, your fingers take care of it, it feels organic, your thinking isn't distracted by noises or strange sensations. In short, you're a typing Ninja. I don't really feel it like that, but I can see what they mean.

[Muirium]

Bang on the nose! Topre has some of the same attributes as beamspring — the main one is the S shaped tactile curve, unlike all MX, Alps, and almost all other switches — and yet they feel dramatically different. How to describe that difference? Well, we're into subjective territory here for sure. Beamspring is metal while Topre is gentle supple… rubber. Yeah, but no. Argh!

Even with headphones on loud so I can't hear the board, I know I'm on beamspring or either generation of buckling spring, just by touch. Topre is another I feel immediately, but you don't have to crank the volume quite as loud for it to be 100% fingers, 0% ears!

[seebart]

Thinness and lightness is so far ahead of typing feel to them that they consider the hefty hardware I type on the height of steampunk retro! Even the HHKB looks like a brick to their eyes. And next to a modern Apple keyboard, I do see it.

it´s a fashion /lifestyle factor that has evolved with all these "devices" since Apple introduced the original iPhone in 2007. Mobile communication in form of "smartphones" has changed more socially in the last nine years than personal computing or has changed in the last centuries. Give a ten year old a keyboard today and they`ll look at you with wonder. They know what it is, but they will choose a touch screen device for communication. Where this is all leading to is probably dependent on the technological advancement. That´s why something like google glass or the oculus rift scare me slightly. Being a fourtysomething who grew up with home computing I would probably not use these technologies. Don´t ask me why.

Some of you claimed that there is no comparison, while based on what I've heard, the most accurate way to describe Beam Springs to those that haven't used them is like they're more linear-like Topres.

Okay, if we limit the comparison to feel (which you didn't do in you OP), I personally prefer the beam spring feel. Typing on a beam spring is fun, it's a very balanced feel and the sound is very nice. Like with Buckling springs, you get an audible as well as tactile feedback that tells you you're getting something done. You're a typing pianist. Topre is very different to me, I don't agree that they feel similar. Some people described typing on Topre as "the feeling of oneness with your keyboard", that feeling that the keyboard disappears from your thoughts, your fingers take care of it, it feels organic, your thinking isn't distracted by noises or strange sensations. In short, you're a typing Ninja. I don't really feel it like that, but I can see what they mean.

that´s a pretty good analysis Halvar. So your NOT a typing Ninja?

[Muirium]

Ask your elders what they thought of those damn computers of your youth. They'll have hokey answers but no reasons too. A lot of things come down to what was already around when we were children. People kept using horses when cars came along, but new generations didn't.

That's what surprises me so about the Internet. The few members of my family who never used it were so old they're dead. It's so deep in our culture, so fast.

[seebart]

Ask your elders what they thought of those damn computers of your youth. They'll have hokey answers but no reasons too. A lot of things come down to what was already around when we were children. People kept using horses when cars came along, but new generations didn't.

That's what surprises me so about the Internet. The few members of my family who never used it were so old they're dead. It's so deep in our culture, so fast.

I do actually know quite a few people in my parents age who do not use the internet and refuse to learn. They do like it as a recource when someone else looks something up for them.

[Halvar]

That's what surprises me so about the Internet. The few members of my family who never used it were so old they're dead. It's so deep in our culture, so fast.

I do actually know quite a few people in my parents age who do not use the internet and refuse to learn. They do like it as a recource when someone else looks something up for them.

My parents (75ish) like the WWW and E-Mail, but smartphones are where they're getting off the train. Smartphones are really hostile to seniors I have to say, with all the small fonts and figgly virtual touch buttons they use, and all the dark UI patterns ad developers use on them. If you have bad eyes and numb fingers and don't fully understand how they work (Wifi? EDGE? GPS? Transfer volume? Upload? Cloud?), they can be a bit scary.

[Muirium]

Opposite here. My Mum is on her iPad every day. I think the big screen and touch targets really help. We used to try to get her to use desktop computers back in the 2000s but she couldn't get her head around the mouse. As a secretary, she was more than proficient with the keyboard though! Seems to like typing on glass now.

Indirection is tough for a lot of people. (I remember learning how to drive, and the clutch + gear stick stuff during live traffic was enough to infuriate me!) The less they know what they're doing, the more hurried they feel.

Direct touch targets make the web and apps feel real to them. I don't doubt you're right about other platforms though. The iPad is good at keeping tech details the hell out of the way. Which is why many nerds loath it of course! Where's the fun if everyone can use it?

[mr_a500]

My parents (75ish) like the WWW and E-Mail, but smartphones are where they're getting off the train. Smartphones are really hostile to seniors I have to say, with all the small fonts and figgly virtual touch buttons they use, and all the dark UI patterns ad developers use on them. If you have bad eyes and numb fingers and don't fully understand how they work (Wifi? EDGE? GPS? Transfer volume? Upload? Cloud?), they can be a bit scary.

I'm far from 75-ish, but "smartphones" are where I "got off the train". It's not the useability I object to, but the evil, locked down, locked in, GPS tracked, money sucking monopoly of a corporate government spyware nightmare the whole thing is.

(smartphones, smartbombs, smart management, smart development, Wallmart smartcentres - why is everything evil called "smart"? ... oh yes, because if you're against it that would make you "not smart". How can anybody be against something "smart"? )

[Muirium]

Well, the only phone I can imagine you being proud of would have a miniature CRT.

Why isn't there a Linux of smartphones anyway? I mean the culture (and likely the same small pool of users) rather than the Unix dynasty chart. Android isn't much more your taste than iOS.

[scottc]

Well, the only phone I can imagine you being proud of would have a miniature CRT.

Why isn't there a Linux of smartphones anyway? I mean the culture (and likely the same small pool of users) rather than the Unix dynasty chart. Android isn't much more your taste than iOS.

http://jolla.com/

And would you believe that I already use one?!

[seebart]

My parents (75ish) like the WWW and E-Mail, but smartphones are where they're getting off the train. Smartphones are really hostile to seniors I have to say, with all the small fonts and figgly virtual touch buttons they use, and all the dark UI patterns ad developers use on them. If you have bad eyes and numb fingers and don't fully understand how they work (Wifi? EDGE? GPS? Transfer volume? Upload? Cloud?), they can be a bit scary.

I'm far from 75-ish, but "smartphones" are where I "got off the train". It's not the useability I object to, but the evil, locked down, locked in, GPS tracked, money sucking monopoly of a corporate government spyware nightmare the whole thing is.

(smartphones, smartbombs, smart management, smart development, Wallmart smartcentres - why is everything evil called "smart"? ... oh yes, because if you're against it that would make you "not smart". How can anybody be against something "smart"? )

I could not agree more! It get`s really bad for the people who are not even aware of all this whilst they are wrapping their whole life around these "smart" devices! When I´m out and about these days it´s starting to look like smart zombie land a little. With their head angled down walking without taking notice of the world around them.That´s why I like the word devices minus the smart. And it´s not a phone either. That´s just one function of the damn thing. And it´s going to get worse with the coming generations of users.

Well, the only phone I can imagine you being proud of would have a miniature CRT.

Why isn't there a Linux of smartphones anyway? I mean the culture (and likely the same small pool of users) rather than the Unix dynasty chart. Android isn't much more your taste than iOS.

http://jolla.com/

And would you believe that I already use one?!

there are: firefox OS and ubuntu are in the beta phase. Android is linux based btw. It´s highly customized by google of course.

[Muirium]

Why isn't there a Linux of smartphones anyway? I mean the culture (and likely the same small pool of users) rather than the Unix dynasty chart. Android isn't much more your taste than iOS.

there are: firefox OS and ubuntu are in the beta phase. Android is linux based btw. It´s highly customized by google of course.

You don't say.

Android gets cut a lot of slack for its Linux kernel. But it's just as proprietary a platform as Windows and OS X.