deskthority

Hi everyone!

Long time lurker here and on GH, since back when I was looking for a keyboard to alleviate my RSI, resulting in Kinesis Advantage—which is, I have to say, pretty nice in some regards and abominable in some others. And since I've took to coding lately, I've started looking for something with real F-keys. Something tenkeyless but not too keyless. And maybe the Kinesis doesn't do justice to those browns, but now I'm really, really curious about them Topres.

Cutting it short, I'm rather thinking NovaTouch barebones. But:

1. Is it Mac-friendly enough? I have Mac at my current workplace so my new keyboard is going to spend quite a bit of time with OS X.
2. Then again, is it Windows and Linux-friendly? As in, can you reprogram Fn or right-Win into the Menu key? (Of course, there's a lot you can do with stuff like AutoHotKey or custom layouts, so that one doesn't bother me too much.)
3. Last but not exactly least (I mean, there must be a reason I'm not asking about Realforce, right?), what are my options for the caps? Does anything come close to the HoneyBs? Should I hurry before the Round 5a ends? Or can there be something comparable in sound and feel on Massdrop? Are the Duckies any good?

Any advice is appreciated and yes, it does feel sweet to delurk

Welcome above the waterline!

a. It's fine on OS X. That's all I ever use. I've been getting some weirdness lately with the right side Command and Option keys (Alt and Windows) which doesn't seem to affect the left. Very odd. But I've no idea what's causing it and I never noticed sooner. Could be something in software on my desktop.

b. No idea.

c. Hypersphere swears by the Duckies. I don't. My favourite caps on this board are Granite. Both for looks and feel. Massdrop's running another round of them in January or so, apparently. Might take a while to show up, but thoroughly recommended. Awesome caps.

I wrote a lot about the NovaTouch when CM gave me one for review. Out the box, it's an imperfect keyboard. If you really haven't any MX caps already you want to use on it, the Realforce looks a pretty solid idea, as Topre does the full package. But I've come to really like the NovaTouch now I've fitted damping rings, which solve its key weakness.

Thanks for the reply, Muirium!

I was thinking of getting a Realforce and ending the game, but that's not as fun as custom caps, even though I don't have a budget to get a lot of them, leave along a lot of keyboards.

Maybe I will wait for Granite, if you say they're worth it. January is not that far off, and it would save me the agony of choice that is the Round 5a

Edit: It's Muirium, of course. Sorry!

The main selling feature of the Novatouch is its ability to accept keycaps with the Cherry mx mount. However, if you care about bottoming-out noise from the caps making contact with the switch housing and/or plate, I have found that only relatively high profile caps (such as OEM) will work. For example, I have found that caps in the Cherry or Leopold profile are not high enough.

In addition, I dislike typing on ABS, but I like typing on PBT. I've tried the Granite set on the Novatouch -- it mostly works and it is certainly handsome, but I find it difficult to type on the spherical tops and flat profile. Therefore, for my typing needs, the only sets that I would put on the Novatouch are PBT in OEM profile. There are sets made by Ducky that meet these criteria.

After installing internal silencing rings, putting on PBT OEM keycaps, lubing the stabilizers, and applying foam pads under the spacebar, my Novatouch looks and feels just about as good as my RF87U.

However, I have also overhauled my RF boards, including replacing some of the keycaps from Topre sets that I was lucky enough to buy when they were still readily available. You can still find sets for some Japanese layout Topre keyboards that will work for many of the keys on a RF87U, but some legends will be incorrect and some keys will not work. Fortunately, the stock keycaps on the RF87U are superb.

EDIT: Regarding OS compatibility, I have used the Novatouch with OS X, Linux, and Windows. One drawback is that the NT has a hard-wired Fn key that cannot be remapped. I use Karabiner for Mac and ATNsoft Key Manager for Windows as my keyboard remapping software, and on the NT, I remap Right Control as my Fn key. However, this leaves me with a dead key on the board. In contrast, the RF does not have a hard-wired Fn key, and so all my keys on the bottom row are functional before and after remapping.

Other extras that are present on the RF and missing on the NT include LEDs for NumLock and CapsLock, DIP switches, and an embedded numeric keypad.

About the only thing I miss in the RF is a detachable USB cable. I am considering installing a flush-mount USB connector in my RF.

Hypersphere's review is dead on.

MrsXMIT still prefers her RF 87U to a silenced Novatouch with silencing rings, FWIW. I think she notices the very slight reduction in travel that the rings cause.

From my experience the following key cap sets will work quite well with no bottoming out on any keys:
OEM Profile (e.g. Vortex PBT double shots)
Signature Plastics SA (e.g. Round 5, SA Retro)

The following key cap sets also work quite well, but may bottom out on larger stabilized keys:
Signature Plastics DSA (e.g. Granite, DSA Dolch)

The following key cap sets will bottom out on the ASDF row due to their shallow profile and may not be ideal:
Cherry ABS doubleshots (Cherry profile)
Vortex PBT key caps in Cherry profile (similar to Leopold, recently featured on Massdrop)

I have not tried these key cap sets:
Signature Plastics DCS (though I expect these to be the same as Cherry profile)

The purpose of the o-rings included with the Novatouch is to add more space between the top of the switch housing and the underside of the key cap. Unfortunately this may result in not enough of the key cap stem engaging on the switch slider, resulting in a key caps that is very easy to remove accidentally.

Thank you both for the detailed answers!

One thing that scares me about the stock RF caps is that weird Win keys. They remind me of an old A4 keyboard and it's not a sweet memory. I would be awkward using them on Windows or Linux (I'm one of those people that actually uses Win- shortcuts a lot), and doubly so pretending it's just a little old Option key on a Mac.

As for the travel and the rings, I don't think I like bottoming out. Can't say I actually never did it on the Kinesis, but I thought at leas part of the reason for tactile switches was knowing where to stop pushing. So maybe the shorter travel would be ok with me.

Those domed Windows keys are awful. I use my Realforce 87U with some spare HHKB mods down there instead. They're not quite the right colour, but my fingers are thankful, and I like having real Command symbols too.

Over all, I tend to say go with the Realforce, because it's the real deal, out of the box; while the NovaTouch is a compromise that leads to no end of fiddling. But! The Realforce has its imperfections, those mods among them. More seriously, they also tend to misbehave when waking a Mac. I habitually wake my computers from sleep by pressing a key on the keyboard — it's where my hands are going anyway — and what I get on both of my Macs is a successful system wake, followed by a vanishing keyboard! The Realforce vanishes, as far as USB is concerned, if it instigates system wake on a Mac. I've no idea why, and it's a daft bloody bug to have in this day and age, but it's everpresent and does annoy me whenever I forget. The fix: reach around and pull out the USB cable. Ugh…

The HHKB has neither of these issues, incidentally. That really is a perfect keyboard, if you can handle the layout. I adore my Type-S.

Oh, apparently Topre did fix the Windows keys quite recently, so if you buy a new Realforce they come with flat, square Windows logo keys instead of the vile old bubble. Too recent a change for me, though. My Realforce is one of my youngest boards (I'm mostly into vintage) but was just too old to get that upgrade.

Not sure I'm willing to handle the HHKB layout. It's nice having all those PgUps, Homes and Dels, not to mention the F-row.

As for the RF with the flat Win keys, I'm afraid getting it might prove tricky. All the eBay listings I've found and the current Massdrop with PBT spacebars show the old domed keys. Some of the sellers may already have new stock, of course.

Where are you at?

In America, Elitekeyboards is the place to go:
http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products. ... _keyboards

In Europe, well, we're stuck with the stunningly pricey Keyboardco:
http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/usa- ... yboard.asp

The cheapest way to get a new one is actually Amazon Japan. And if you're not in the land of the rising sun, export it via Tenso. That's how I got my HHKB, and it worked a treat. I got the high end Type-S for a great price.

I thought I did add my residence. Oh well. It's Moscow, Russia, born and bread.

Doesn't Amazon Japan get you a Japanese layout keyboard? That's more keys to reprogram, but a shorter space bar.

I wish they made a TKL HiPro.

As do we all! Hopefully they'll do it someday. Or just let us buy the bloody HiPro caps!

Russia, eh? Now I know how you could spot the wrong Cyrillic layout on a keyboard! Naturally, I don't understand any of it myself. Just that it looks boss and lets me cover two keyboards with Granite as a second alpha set.

As for Amazon Japan, here's an American ANSI layout 55g Realforce 87U, just like mine:

http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/switch-langu ... uage=en_JP

$165. If only! But the rest of us must use proxies, like Tenso. That one looks to have the same bubble Windows key style. I wonder if (DT's Topre expert) 002 knows where to find the good ones…

I thought you were DT's Topre expert.

Expert in training. I've only got two authentic Topre boards (and two NovaTouches) which hardly counts! Not when you're up against this guy:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/User:002

I make up for it a bit with my IBMs. But only a bit.

That's... impressive, to say the least

If you're a keycap lover, a spherical keycap lover in particular, then anything involving Topre is a compromise. RealForce boards can't take any of the SA/DSA sets made by SP, and the NovaTouch suffers from bottoming-out noise issues and simply not being "the real deal". If you like cylindrical keycaps (I have a singular loathing for them), then there is surely a Topre-based solution out there for you. But if you want to put beautiful SA/DSA sphericals on your keyboards, then you either go with MX boards or live with all the compromises of the NovaTouch (which includes not having full ANSI layouts).

There's always the HiPro. That has stock Topre sphericals on it. Not the nicest sphericals in the world, but sphericals nonetheless.

MX might be seen as a compromise too, if my hypothesis that I'll like Topres better is right. As for the caps, that's all highly hypothetical too, since I've no idea whether I can live with cylindrical caps or not. That said, I'm even typing on a chiclet Apple keyboard right now.

HiPro looks very attractive but for one thing: it's not tenkeyless. That'll put my mouse way too far off. Unless I learn to wield it with my left hand, that is. I wonder if it would solve more problems than it would create (like more fatigue in the left hand).

The HiPro is very nice except that I can't change the keycaps. I like being able to switch out sets based on my mood.

I was pretty sure I'd love modern sphericals even before typing on them, and I was right. I have Dolch, Granite, and Round 4 SPH on various keyboards (two Pok3rs and two full ANSI Filco Majestouch-2s). Sphericals are it for me, and that means Cherry MX switches or NovaTouch. Thing is, I don't care for TKL boards; I want to see a full set of glorious keycaps on any keyboard used with a desktop machine, and that means full ANSI all the way (I give Pok3rs a pass in this respect because they must fit with the small footprint of my iPad).

Maybe one day CM will have full ANSI NovaTouch boards with properly dampened switches and both black and (off)white cases. If that day comes, I'll be first in line to buy them.

@hoichi: Thanks for reminding us that you live in Moscow. I have some friends and colleagues in Moscow and Chernogolovka (Moscow region).

Regarding the HHKB Pro 2, this has been my main keyboard for quite some time now. However, it took me a long time to try it. I thought I would not like the layout. Now, it is by far my favorite layout, and I remap all my other keyboards to mimic the layout as closely as possible.

Regarding the horrible Windows bubble keys on the RF keyboards, I have used keys from the HHKB Pro 2 keycap sets to replace them. I use the black-on-dark-gray modifiers with nearly invisible legends, so the legends don't matter.

Back to the Novatouch, I do really like it now that I have made several modifications, but I did not like it out of the box.

I've found something to like about almost every mechanical keyboard I've tried. The switches that have risen to the top of my list include silenced Topre (55 and 45 g), stock Topre (55 and 45 g), IBM capacitive buckling spring (Model F), various Alps and Alps-type (including Matias Click and Quiet Click), and NMB "Space Invaders" (Angry Bear). I will also type on IBM membrane buckling spring (Model M) in my SSK. Cherry mx of any kind (including Kalih and Gateron) are usually at the bottom of my list, but I like to type on them once in a while as a change of pace. Recently, I tried a KC60 with mx browns -- it is a rather nice little board with fairly decent dye-sub PBT keycaps.

zslane wrote: Thing is, I don't care for TKL boards; I want to see a full set of glorious keycaps on any keyboard used with a desktop machine, and that means full ANSI all the way (I give Pok3rs a pass in this respect because they must fit with the small footprint of my iPad).

I think my case is the opposite of yours so far. TKL is all I care for. For portability I have my Thinkpad X220 with its almost-TKL layout. On a desk, all the ten keys do for me is get in the way of my mouse—but I do use the F-keys, and the arrow keys, and the Ins-PgDn block. With modifiers. So adding even more modifiers to the mix (like all those 60-percenters most likely do) would make things unnecessarily complicated and unintuitive.

Maybe one day I'll see the utility, or at least, the fun in 60% boards. For now, I don't have time or budget for experiments.

Hypersphere wrote: @hoichi: Thanks for reminding us that you live in Moscow. I have some friends and colleagues in Moscow and Chernogolovka (Moscow region).

Never been to Chernogolovka (well, I've never even been to all of Moscow), but one of my first bosses and mentors was from there, so it must be a good place

By the by, I think I've forgotten to ask a very important thing: are all the modifier keys on the [ANSI] NovaTouch regular size? And is the space bar identical to CM Storm?

Yes. Same as every Filco wannabe out there. 1.25u mods with a 6.25u spacebar.

Thanks!

But why would everyone want to be Filco?

Standards...They make the world go round.

Standards like 1.5u mods and 7u spacebars!

Filco pretty much instigated the modern mechanical keyboard renaissance. Or at least a gathering interest found them and made sweet, hot commercial love. The Majestouch is the definitive MX keyboard, brand wise. Filco (aka Diatec) got to define a lot of things not by being a standard, but simply being a success. Copycats liked what they saw, and crashed the party. CM, Ducky, Vortex, Noppoo and all the rest of them followed Filco's footsteps as close as they could. Which is why you see so much convergence in modern mechanical keyboards, as if there was a new IBM!

"Filco layout" became the de facto standard because of Filco's success and because so many companies copied it.
Same thing with the "Model M layout" (1.5u + 7u). Before it came along with it's success, we had 9u and 10u spacebars as standard.

Well, standards are a good thing, I guess. Unless they're exceptionally bad standards.

Actually, before the Model M, the original IBM PC "XT" layout was standard in the realm of DOS boxes…



Yikes.

The point being: most companies are shameless copycats. Whatever's popular, they clone. And if something *bad* is popular, they clone that. Like all those chiclet desktop keyboards out there today!

Yikes indeed.

We did have an Acer XT beige box back at my first workplace in 1991, but luckily I don't remember this.

Another one: how big is a difference between Granite and Dolch?