Topre Hi-Pro vs SA keycaps?

[evoman]

I have spent a couple of weeks using my CM NovaTouch with a set of SA keycaps (from Filco, but I believe that they are made by Signature Plastics, so match their standard ABS SA profile caps - though perhaps the rows structure is different, I have no idea) and it has really improved the feel of the keyboard (I like the switches but didn't really like the keyboard based on the feel of the original caps).

So I am wondering if the HiPro version of the Topre keyboard is likely to be similar and perhaps even better? The more I use the Topre switches the more I like them, and I have started to use the NT full time and leave my Model M off to the side. But I don't love the SA ABS caps, and would prefer a keyboard with a more solid feel (I had a RealForce and I really liked the solid feel compared to the NT construction).

My sense is that people have limited experience with the HiPro version, and I have read mixed reviews. But in this case, I am mainly comparing them to the SA profile and perhaps the overall feel of the SA on the NovaTouch.

I am waiting on a set of MX sliders for Topre switches, so I could potentially find a hybrid solution if that seems optimal.

thanks for any input

[zslane]

A RealForce Hi-Pro board will definitely feel more solid than a NovaTouch. The overall build quality is unmatched.

The Hi-Pro keycaps are a bit different from SA, especially in that they have a very sharp, crisp top edge and more pronounced dishing than SA. I prefer SA, but if you can get used to the Hi-Pro keycaps, I think you will really love the RealForce board. You won't find alternate colors for keycaps (unless you seek out the elusive Korean variant), so if you like the all-dark-gray color scheme then maybe that won't bother you.

You could swap out the non-stabilized sliders with the MX-compatible sliders, but you'd need to do some major modification work to make use of the stabilized sliders and their stabilizers. I don't think it is worth it, to be honest.

One alternate idea is to pick up a RealForce RGB board, put your Filco SA keycaps on it for now, and then get a set of Matt3o's PBT beamspring-inspired keycaps when they become available (ETA unknown though).

[belowgeek]

Are Topre keyboards still expensive? Or is there an affordable one already?

[zslane]

They are all more expensive than other brands for the same form factor.

[XMIT]

I for one hate the dishing on HiPro caps. They're like inverted pyramids with harsh corners, and not really spheres at all.

[evoman]

A RealForce Hi-Pro board will definitely feel more solid than a NovaTouch. The overall build quality is unmatched.

The Hi-Pro keycaps are a bit different from SA, especially in that they have a very sharp, crisp top edge and more pronounced dishing than SA. I prefer SA, but if you can get used to the Hi-Pro keycaps, I think you will really love the RealForce board. You won't find alternate colors for keycaps (unless you seek out the elusive Korean variant), so if you like the all-dark-gray color scheme then maybe that won't bother you.

You could swap out the non-stabilized sliders with the MX-compatible sliders, but you'd need to do some major modification work to make use of the stabilized sliders and their stabilizers. I don't think it is worth it, to be honest.

One alternate idea is to pick up a RealForce RGB board, put your Filco SA keycaps on it for now, and then get a set of Matt3o's PBT beamspring-inspired keycaps when they become available (ETA unknown though).

How is the contrast on the keycaps? I have a Realforce with the dark on dark scheme and it was a nightmare. I need enough contrast to see the letters to ground myself occasionally (I'm not a touch typist - more of a 65wpm hacker).

The RGB board seems too expensive to justify since I don't want the lights and I don't see the utility of the adjustable activation. I will have a set of sliders at some point, so presumably can swap caps on any RF.

I'll keep an eye out for the beamspring inspired version - i assume they are reasonably high profile, but with the smoother contours of the beamspring compared to the Topre ones.

I wish I could try the Topre ones before buying, but they seem quite rare. I might manage to get our IT people to order me something at work, but can really only justify them ordering one keyboard (and I cannot sell it, so it has to work or end up in a drawer!).

[zslane]

I don't like the dark gray Topre keycaps and their poor legend contrast, which is why I bought a 104UK Hi-Pro, despite how very expensive it was. It is a very high quality keyboard, but the RGB is $70 cheaper and it allows me to put any of my spherical keycap sets on (like my beloved Space Cadet set). If you think the RGB is too expensive, then any Hi-Pro board is going to give you sticker shock as well.

I wish you luck with swapping the sliders, but honestly, without a good solution for the stabilized keys, I just don't see the point of it.

[evoman]

I don't like the dark gray Topre keycaps and their poor legend contrast, which is why I bought a 104UK Hi-Pro, despite how very expensive it was. It is a very high quality keyboard, but the RGB is $70 cheaper and it allows me to put any of my spherical keycap sets on (like my beloved Space Cadet set). If you think the RGB is too expensive, then any Hi-Pro board is going to give you sticker shock as well.

I wish you luck with swapping the sliders, but honestly, without a good solution for the stabilized keys, I just don't see the point of it.

The prices I see for the Hi-Pro model appear cheaper than the RGB, no? Like at Keyboardco.

[zslane]

Those prices are the inverse of what I typically see here in the U.S.

[evoman]

Those prices are the inverse of what I typically see here in the U.S.

I was also losing sight of the fact that you were talking about the 104UK, not the 104UG. So your comment about contrast makes more sense - the dull contrast of the UG version worries me since it looks even worse than the Noppoo keycaps on my Choc Mini, which I already find annoying.

So I might look at the RGB version again, though it might be harder to convince our IT people to order one since it looks too bling and gamer oriented (whereas I can at least argue that the HiPro is required because it will improve the ergonomics of my workspace!)

[zslane]

Does this RealForce RGB look too bling and gamer oriented?

[seebart]

Does this RealForce RGB look too bling and gamer oriented?

Turn down the lights and turn on all the RGB-barf effects and I'll tell you.

[Laser]

Does this RealForce RGB look too bling and gamer oriented?

Umm, pls remind me, exactly how much money (keyboard & keycaps), time (GB waiting time) AND effort (painting) was needed to accomplish that?

[seebart]

During the 37 months +/- it takes to ship those 7bitbot caps one can build an entire keyboard collection.

[zslane]

Does this RealForce RGB look too bling and gamer oriented?

Umm, pls remind me, exactly how much money (keyboard & keycaps), time (GB waiting time) AND effort (painting) was needed to accomplish that?

Almost more than it was worth in every category. Almost. And only because I am really lazy as a rule.

However, there are plenty of folks who have gone to much greater lengths (and expense) to put together their end-game boards than I did.

[Laser]

Hope I didn't sound critical! (gorgeous keyboard) - I was only pointing that one has to make (quite) an effort to go against Topre's current direction ("gamer oriented"). Maybe evoman could convince his IT department that the RGB colors could help with alarms and other serious events? Red blink: new mail message from the boss, continuous blue: lunch break is over, get to work now and so on.

[zslane]

Well, I think there is still a usable lesson to be extracted from my Space Cadet board, which is that if you take a RealForce RGB, leave the backlighting off (like I do), and put on a decent set of keycaps, it sheds its "gamer oriented" heritage and becomes perfectly suited to any professional work environment. You don't even have to paint it; after all, black is the current standard in workplace keyboards anyway.

[XMIT]

During the 37 months +/- it takes to ship those 7bitbot caps one can build an entire keyboard collection.

It's true! This is exactly what I did.

The collection: photos-f62/xmit-s-keyboard-collection-t15682.html

[seebart]

During the 37 months +/- it takes to ship those 7bitbot caps one can build an entire keyboard collection.

It's true! This is exactly what I did.

The collection: photos-f62/xmit-s-keyboard-collection-t15682.html

That may be true XMIT but we can all see I'm flaming 7bit so that's not very nice of me. Looking at your large collection I did not know you own a Micro Switch dual magnet Hall Effect keyboard !? XMIT_0457 still being my abolute favorite, but the compact Burroughs Hall Effect is real nice too. Quite Imrpessive.

[XMIT]

XMIT_0457 still being my abolute favorite

I would call this board XMIT119.

I still wish I hadn't retr0brighted that beautiful XMIT key. Maybe I'll find another some day.

[evoman]

Does this RealForce RGB look too bling and gamer oriented?

By 'bling and gamer oriented' I wasn't really talking about the board itself, but the reaction I expect from our anal IT services group. I can generally get them to order stuff I need since i do primarily computer based work, but I am worried that the RGB version will just look like I am asking for a toy. The HiPro has a serious working look to it, so i could potentially get that through the request system.

Because of the way the process works, I cannot get the IT people to buy keycaps - so I order those myself and swap them etc. Actually, I have spent my own money on almost all of the keyboards I use, but I am hoping that I can use money left from a project that is ending to buy a nice Topre keyboard (and sell one of my NovaTouchs afterwards to recoup my own cash!). So the HiPro also means I get a nice set of keycaps with the board. But I agree that the RGB would be a good solution and I could just recoup some cash from boards I purchased to buy another nice set of caps. I just need the RGB order to work!

Speaking of the RGB model - what do you think of the adjustable activation (or whatever they call it)? Is it a real selling point or just a gimmick? What part of the feel does it really change? thanks for all the info!

[evoman]

One other naive question - does the problem with the stabilised sliders apply to all Topre models (ignoring the spacebar since I could leave the original and get one of the aftermarket PBT ones) - like the Leopold and all RF models? (ISO and ANSI)? I don't know how they are stabilised since I have only swapped the caps on the NovaTouch and that obviously worked perfectly (after removing the Filco specific stabilisers that come in their version of the SA caps)

[zslane]

I think the variable activation is mostly a gamer feature. I mean, I'm sure there are typists out there who might make use of it, but being able to achieve key activation with a super light touch is mostly important for some types of games/gamers. I'm sure it's a selling point for them, but for me it's just another gimmick that I ignore.

As for stabilizers, AFAIK, regular Topre switches with stabilizers are incompatible with any other kind of keycap or switch, and that is true regardless of the keyboard brand or model.

[evoman]

Just a quick follow up - I received a Realforce RGB today and have an order in on MD for a set of the Beamspring inspired hi-pro keycaps, so I decided to go that route instead of the Hi-Pro model. Hopefully it works out well and I can shift one or two of the NovaTouches I have to cover costs! Thanks for all the comments that helped me decide on this route.

[phinix]

I for one hate the dishing on HiPro caps. They're like inverted pyramids with harsh corners, and not really spheres at all.

That is exactly what I'm worried about Matt3o's new caps.
I couldn't stand DSA profile because of those edges.
SA is perfect, but having SA with harsh edges may kill it...

[XMIT]

Oh I hate SA too, the dishing is not nearly deep enough and the symmetry of Rows 2 and 4 serves a manufacturing convenience, not an ergonomic need. That being said MAXKEY SA caps on an RC930 are pretty great. Not perfect, but pretty great. It's one of my favorite boards.

IBM Selectric / beam spring sphericals are damn near perfect, as are Alps sphericals and whatever sculpted sphericals are common on vintage Hall effect boards.

As for variable actuation: instead of using the analog nature of Topre or Hall sensors for different actuation heights, I'd prefer to use the absolute position, and the velocity of press, for something interesting. Perhaps having the repeat rate of the arrow keys be proportional to the position so pushing harder means you scroll faster. Or perhaps detecting a really fast press of an alpha key so you can touch type capital letters.

[zslane]

IBM Selectric / beam spring sphericals are damn near perfect...

I would expect you to like MT3 quite a bit then. Are you in on the /dev/tty drop?

[XMIT]

IBM Selectric / beam spring sphericals are damn near perfect...

I would expect you to like MT3 quite a bit then. Are you in on the /dev/tty drop?

Yes, I've ordered three sets IIRC.