deskthority

Hi Guys,

First time poster - so nice to meet you all!

So over the last couple of years I've been slowing falling down the rabbit hole of finding a better keyboard.. I've gone from my average IBM SK8815 rubber dome, to a Sun type 5 which I converted to USB with an Arduino, to an Apple M0116 mechanical (which also got the Arduino conversion) and have now seen the light regarding mechanical keys (despite protests from the co-workers)

So now I'm looking for my dream keyboard in this rather large new frontier i've waltzed into

My requirements for a keyboard are
mechanical switches (don't currently have a preference to make/model)
full number of keys
NKRO as it'll be for gaming too
and most unusually - I really like the idea of the 1800 layout... all the keys and a little narrower.

The interesting thing for me about the 1800 layout is that I'm a lefty and use the arrow keys for gaming - nudging everything closer should give me a few more 'easy to reach' keys without me having to retrain my hard-ingrained muscle memory.

I'm in the UK and I want to be sensible with cost (ideally keeping it under £120) and right now don't want to go DIY (enough unfinished projects as it is)

There seems to be 2 main options. The Leopold FC980M and the Cherry G80-18XX (the latter of which there are several versions it appears (wiki/Cherry_G80-1800#cite_note-1869dhgate-17)

Does anyone have any experience with these keyboards - any reason one is better than the other?

Are there any other 1800 layout keyboards easily available to the UK right now I should look at?

I've been googling around and so far

The normal Cherry is cheaper (around £70 vs £120)
The cherry has a couple of extra buttons (not a major factor, but more is more)
The Leopold has a steel plate making it feel more robust
The Leopold is def NKRO (I can't tell with the basic Cherrys on ebay)
I 'think' they keycaps on the Leopold are doubleshot (again cannot tell with the cheap cherry, likely not)

So 'out the box' and 'easy to buy' the Leopold looks to me to be the better keyboard, but the 'fancier' cherry models like the Raptor Gaming K1 would be maybe slightly better... but I think almost impossible to buy over here without either high cost or a long time searching

Assuming I fall further down the rabbit hole and want to customise the keys etc down the line... is one better than the other in this respect?

Thanks for reading

Tim

I would go with the Leopold. It has better build quality.

Great thanks guys

Did a lot more digging and definitely looks like the leopold is what I'm after.

Annoyingly it looks like Cherry MX Browns would be the best option for me for keys... you think I can find somewhere with one in stock in the UK....

Anyone recommend somewhere with sensible international shipping/customs they've used personally that might stock one?

Thanks

Tim

ddrfraser1 wrote: 30 Apr 2020, 16:32 I would go with the Leopold. It has better build quality.

Leopolds are more rigid and heavier than Cherry G80s thanks to the metal plate. If you like the typing feel/sound of a rigid keyboard, then the Leopold could be a great choice. They're good keyboards - no doubt about that.

...And vice versa, G80s are much more flexible, given that they're PCB mount and use "shell" casings. I only ever see bad things said about this; G80s are constantly associated with "low build quality". I couldn't disagree more though. Firstly, people talk about flexibility as if it's an objectively bad thing. No, there are plenty of people who prefer a flexy keyboard (either with particular switches, or with any switch), and for those people the G80 series is a dream. Really, the typing feel/sound of a properly tuned G80 with an older casing* can't be compared to anything else. This is the main thing I want to get across - typing feel/sound is subjective, and I think this fact should be recognised. Especially on a forum dedicated to keyboards.

*I say older casing because the quality of G80s has dropped severely over time. The newer offerings really are low quality, and they might creak if you type too strongly on them. The older ones absolutely won't though.

Regarding "build quality", I feel like people judge it based entirely on rigidity and sheer invincibility. Sure, an IBM would survive a nuclear blast or a natural distaster, but you're not buying a keyboard to survive a nuclear blast or a natural disaster. You're buying a keyboard to type on. And in the context of typing, there's nothing you could hold against a G80 in terms of build quality. Hell, I've used them for years and I've never had a single issue with one breaking in any way. I've dropped them numerous times and a mark was never made. On the other hand, drop an Alps/IBM boards and the case could shatter instantly because of the weight from the same metal plate that everyone purports to be oh so conducive to "build quality". I can understand somebody instinctively judging it based on rigidity though, it's how I used to judge things when I was first getting into keyboards, and it's still a factor when I judge other electronics/products. But when it comes to keyboards I think it should be avoided; unlike most consumer products, keyboard flex can be a good thing if it matches your taste.

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In response to OP: For you, I think you'd be best going with the Leopold. Not because of "build quality", but because of your NKRO requirement, ease of purchase and, to a degree, your budget. Older G80-1800s have 2KRO, and in order to remedy this you'd have to replace the PCB with a custom one. The Raptor K1 is an exception to this rule, but you'll really struggle to find one in UK layout unless you're willing to buy a replacement keycap set.

Now, if using a custom PCB doesn't scare you off, then there are a bunch of G80/G81 (G81 uses MY switches, which are terrible, but the casings and keycaps are identical to their G80 counterparts, so they can be used as vessels for custom MX PCBs) would be a prime candidate. If you get the right model, it'll come with beautiful, thick doubleshot UK ISO keycaps. For example, G80-1800HAG or G81-1800HAG (winkeyless layout)


or a G80-1800HAMGB (winkey layout)


However, going back to the ease of purchase that I mentioned.. These aren't readily available. They don't come up often. You'd have to search for one if you wanted one. Ones with lasered keycaps are much more common, but they're not as nice. That's why I say you're probably best going for the Leopold.

Interesting perspective, one that I haven't heard before and one that I'm not sure many others share. I myself have never typed on one of these older G80s. Now, I'd be interested to try it just to see if I can get a sense of what you're talking about. However, I recon Tim is choosing between a new Leopold and a new G80.

ddrfraser1 wrote: 02 May 2020, 23:43 Interesting perspective, one that I haven't heard before and one that I'm not sure many others share. I myself have never typed on one of these older G80s. Now, I'd be interested to try it just to see if I can get a sense of what you're talking about. However, I recon Tim is choosing between a new Leopold and a new G80.

Just to expand slightly on flexible vs rigid, even if it's a bit off topic:

I know a lot of people who prefer flexy boards, although most of them have been in the hobby for a number of years. Some of them prefer it for all MX switches, some of them only prefer it for particular switches (for example, vintage clears and vintage browns are popular choices).

Going back to 2014-2015 on the Western forums, it was a widely accepted fact that flexibility wasn't a bad thing. And the Korean forums had an affinity for flex long before then - for example, the OTD series of custom aluminium keyboards were regularly offered with polycarbonate half plates (half plates only cover the modifier switches, leaving the rest to be PCB mounted) in order to accentuate the flex as much as possible. This is why I get the urge to chime in whenever people dismiss flexible boards as being outright "low quality". I feel like it's taking a step backwards, and it's ignoring the subjective nature of input device. Just as flexible boards may not be for everyone, I don't think rigid ones are either.

I personally love rigid boards with vintage blacks, while I prefer flexy boards for vintage browns and vintage clears. Also, in terms of the G80 series, they're not all equally flexy since the PCB sizes are different. The 3000 series is the most flexible by far, with the 1800 series being less flexible (smaller PCB), the 1000 series being somewhere near (since it has a more rigid mounting/casing), and the 5000/ergoplus being the least flexible (two smaller PCBs).

I should also note that, while I'm a Cherry fanboy, I enjoy the famously rigid IBM and Alps offerings. Hell, if my beamsprings weren't so ungainly I'd probably be using them as my daily drivers.

Hi Photekq

Thanks for the detailed response - The old Apple mechanical (mo116) i type on right now is quite a rigid keyboard and I think is one of the qualities I like about it (over the membrane Sun type 5 I was using before that does have flex).

I think I've come to the same conclusion to you that the leopold would be my best bet for my first 'real' MK... Finding the 'right' cherry looks like it would take some time.

Mind you finding a Leopold with Cherry Browns hasn't been the insta-purchase I was hoping for - So going to start the hunt and try mechmarket (thanks ntv242)

Custom PCBs and firmware actually is pretty exciting to me.... but I'm trying to resist my natural urge to take on another project with this for now in favour of improving my initial typing experience and working out exactly what I want in a keyboard.

Thanks All

Tim

Regarding flex: count me as another pro-flex voice. In my case, it’s on Topre. The classic Realforce is a solid slab of a board thanks to that thick metal plate. (Think I remember hearing the R2 update is even more solid feeling thanks to the new case design.) And I won’t argue against Realforces as the essential, canonical Topre feel. Buut… I prefer my light and gentle HHKB. And that’s from years of typing on both. My initial impression was right and my preference remains.

Still prefer a solid plated MX black over my flexy G80-3000 though. So, as with so much in keyboards, it’s a context thing. Just to say that rigid is not always better, for everyone, everywhere. Not even close.

One thing I considered when looking for a 1800 board is the placement of the Alt key on the bottom row. If you press Alt with your thumb (this is personal preference), then it is too far to the left on both the G80-1800 and Leopold FC980.

On the Leopold in particular, they could have easily shifted the spacebar to the right and made the Fn key 1u and Win key 1.25u: