deskthority

What is the switch(including modified ones) that has is the closest in feeling to two brown switches (with a keycap for two switches)?

I like the feeling of these double browns, it is really tactile. I suppose a change of the spring isn't enough to simulate this.

gunnish wrote:I like the feeling of these double browns, it is really tactile. I suppose a change of the spring isn't enough to simulate this.

Sounds like a stronger spring would be exactly what you want, in fact. I don't know the strengths off hand, but MX clears are meant to be tough, so perhaps those are the springs for the job. Maybe from someone with a bunch to spare from an ergo clear job?

Ah, here we go: a helpful table of all the MX switches and their springs.

Looks like a green spring (80cN) should be a good match for two browns (2x45cN). Though if I were you, I'd listen to someone who knows more about stems than me.

I would say that clears would be better. Tactility of browns is decreased when you increase the spring stiffness.

Sounds like you want clears, you can get them with a new G80-3000 from some online retailer, look for the "Q" in the article number;

Broadmonkey wrote:I would say that clears would be better. Tactility of browns is decreased when you increase the spring stiffness.

Would you say the same about the tactility of greens vs. blues? They only differ in the spring, but right enough the two-piece slider might be in the equation.

Muirium wrote:

Broadmonkey wrote:Tactility of browns is decreased when you increase the spring stiffness.

Would you say the same about the tactility of greens vs. blues?

I would, as that is how I feel them. Nobody has found any difference in the sliders between the green and blue, except the colour.

Findecanor wrote:

Muirium wrote:

Broadmonkey wrote:Tactility of browns is decreased when you increase the spring stiffness.

Would you say the same about the tactility of greens vs. blues?

I would, as that is how I feel them. Nobody has found any difference in the sliders between the green and blue, except the colour.

Indeed. I've seen the pictures.

Perhaps tactility is a relative thing. Like when you pour more coffee into a cup, you'll need more milk and sugar for the same effect. (If you want them, that is. Better not get preferences in coffee involved!)

I just tried swapping a green spring in a brown switch and compared it to a regular brown (last time I used a spring from an MX clear).

The normal Brown has a more sharp feel to it, and it it more noticeable when the tactile bump begins and when it is over the bump. It is also much more sharp in the feel on it's way up, feeling sudden and quick.
The one with a green spring installed felt more laid back. The tactile feel is very much still there, but it's not as easy to distinguish when the bump starts, and you are not so suddenly over it (It's more controlled). It is also not as sudden on the way up.

I also compared an MX Blue vs Green. and I would say that they compare more or less the same as above. Green beeing more soft in it's tactile bump than the blue. The amount of tactility is also more or less the same (besides the fact that the lower part of the stem is movable)

I would say that the Brown stem with a green spring is worth a try and recommendable, especially if you are into heavier switches.

Please note that I this with switches in my hand.

Commendable experiment, Broadmonkey. While you have your switches out, what does a clear feel like with a green spring? I know they're meant to be a bit finicky with lighter (ergo) springs. But I've never heard what a stronger spring does to that notorious switch.

My understanding is that green spring = clear spring = cherry 'heavy' spacebar spring (mx black boards);
I'd recommend trying with black springs which are inbetween brown and clear, in particular trying panda clears.
My experience is that any kind of tactility becomes a little less noticeable with stronger springs.

That is a hard one, there is not that big a difference between the two, but again, the same differences applies as with the browns. The normal MX Clear has a better tactile feel but is of course heavier. With a green spring it is still strong enough to avoid the stem getting stuck (or feel like it) on the way up. I don't know if you would notice the smoother bump if regular clears when writing, so I would probably go for the with green springs, since it's easier on your fingers.

I guess the whole thing about stronger springs makes the tactile bump weaker is false, It just makes it smoother and less sharp.

That's what experimental science is all about!

Springs are one of the principal variables we can experiment with. Lube would be another.

Just took some pics of the springs. Black and Greens seems to be the same, but Blacks feel a bit lighter, although it might be because my Blacks are used and the greens is not.

Supposedly, green, grey and dark grey are the switches with a full 80 cN. Black is 60, clear 55; while brown is just as gentle as red with a feather light 45 cN.

The table's not so sure about MX whites however. Where the truth is in the lube.

Those numbers is is when the switch is at it's actuation point, not when it is bottoming out. It is also highly influenced by stem type, so I wouldn't say it represents springs. I.e. a black spring is lighter than a clear springs, something which is false according to what is stated.
Some of the numbers is supposedly also not correct (I remember ripster tested this sometime and found some to be slightly incorrect)

Modern Whites is specified as 80 cN. Some vintage whites was 50 cN

Fair enough.

It'd be nice to have a table of springs alone. Especially as swapping them around between switches is common practice here.

Yeah, I have been thinking about doing that, but since my camera is piss poor and I is not all too skilled, I haven't been doing it... yet.

Blacks are lighter than clears. Clear has a much higher bottoming out force even though the actuation forces are quite similar. Likewise with green/white/lgrey and tgrey have similar actuation but I believe the bottoming out is higher on the tgrey since it needs to be higher than clear or there was no use of making them as spacebar switches.

So to the OP, clear is reccomended if you want stronger tactile switch and I would also give recommendation of G80-3000LQM**. They are usually fairly inexpensive and much easier to find than the few other clears options, most of which are no longer in production.

Dark grey does indeed use a stronger spring than any of the springs I posted a pic of. I laid them in the order of how strong they are, soft to hard.

That clear spring looks mean somehow.
As somebody stated in a similar thread before here: the clicky switches are slighty heavier than their counterparts since the relaxing switch-leaf doesn't help(push) the stem on the way down as it does with the non clicky ones and linear ones.

No one has mentioned anything non-cherry, why is that?

ohh.. so your aren't looking into modding your existing keyboard? Well, there is Cherry, ALPS and Buckling Spring as the three big main mech switch types (as far as I remember).
I don't know much about ALPS and getting hold of specific ALPS switches is not the easiest task. Mathias has some nice switches, but none as heavy as "double browns". There is of course a lot more different branded switches, but AFAIK a lot of them is either linear or clicky.

I originally meant ANY switch that would be closest to double browns. For some reason I can't seem to find any force graphs for modified Cherries or any of the more rare types of switches like old alps. Has nobody actually measured them?

It is hard to measure, especially since you can measure at both the actuation point and the bottoming out. It would be a lot of work, but Ripster has done some. I think he wrote down the force to reach actuation point.

Indeed.

Things get complex, fast, when comparing completely different switch types. Cherry's MX are all related at least, and mix-and-matchable. Nothing against Matias / ALPS / buckling spring or of course Topre, but they're all in different branches of the keyboard science department! Different keyboards required.