my biggest keyboard shipment receiving..

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vsev

07 Feb 2015, 13:24

The Philips restaured :

overview, pcb, case
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sides
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details
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Got regular DIN plug but not recognised by PC

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vsev

07 Feb 2015, 13:34

Spoiled all post as many pics, sorry for little bandwidths must be correct now !

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Muirium
µ

07 Feb 2015, 14:26

Nice pictures, and well lit. Which inspired me to try to make a site header out of them:

http://deskthority.net/post208512.html#p208512

(Click photos in that thread to preview them as the DT header art.)

User avatar
vsev

07 Feb 2015, 15:07

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: I knew there would have to be at least one more undiscovered space invader switch — one-eye yellow! Two-eye yellow is supposed to be lighter, but one-eye yellow is clearly heavier!

Plus there's that weird dark green/teal Alps SKFL that may or may not be a real switch — it seems to be there as part of the stabiliser, rather than as a switch, but even more confusingly, it looks like the LED hole of the other switch is full of hot glue or an LED or something.

One-eyed yellow :
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The metal leafs under that one have displaced a bit before as you can see in last pic, but still contact is ok, with proper tools like proper pliers, the little ones for electronic I presume..
I don't want to modify anything from this one until I find how to plug in my PC before !

And weird dark green/teal Alps SKFL :
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No led or glue but two switches for this big ass 0 key !

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

07 Feb 2015, 15:45

I was just seeing something that wasn't there. So, it's a dark green switch. Some keyboards do use empty switches or even functional switches for stabilisers, so I'm not clear on what Canon were doing there. What does the green one feel like?

Also, you can see from that photo that the custom (language-specific?) keycaps are engraved.

Findecanor

07 Feb 2015, 18:14

I'm guessing that the green switch is not connected to anything - just soldered to keep it on the board.

How are the Philips keyboard's keycaps? It is difficult to see, but it looks in pictures as if they are a hybrid of cylindrical and spherical, though mostly flat with edges on left, right and back.

It is not the first keyboard that I've seen that has had the numeric keypad in all one profile while the alphabetic keyboard has been contoured. I wonder why they do the keys different.

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

08 Feb 2015, 02:19

jacobolus wrote:
vsev wrote: PHILIPS

Case of this one is totally metal, very heavy one
HaaTa says this is ICL switches: http://deskthority.net/wiki/ICL_switch
They're quite different to the ones shown here:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=11987.0

Since we have no proof that either switch was ever made by ICL …

It could easily be another manufacturer's switch, just as with RAFI RS 76M vs Siemens STB 21.

User avatar
skrsh3r

08 Feb 2015, 06:39

Also stems are different on those skfl switches, they don't have that little plastic part in center that stops you from using some alps keycaps.

jacobolus

08 Feb 2015, 07:39

skrsh3r wrote: Also stems are different on those skfl switches, they don't have that little plastic part in center that stops you from using some alps keycaps.
Yeah... maybe a very early version of SKFL?

jacobolus

08 Feb 2015, 08:03

Daniel Beardsmore wrote:
jacobolus wrote: HaaTa says [the Philips board] is ICL switches: http://deskthority.net/wiki/ICL_switch
They're quite different to the ones shown here:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=11987.0
Here’s my butchered (his was too dark to see anything) version of one of HaaTa’s pictures (https://www.flickr.com/photos/triplehaata/12888490103/):
Image

Looks pretty similar to the Philips one, I’d say.

User avatar
HaaTa
Master Kiibohd Hunter

08 Feb 2015, 08:06

I have another keyboard with this switch (at least from your pics I'd say it's the same).

ImageLoewe. TBT 02 Keyboard by triplehaata, on Flickr
ImageLoewe. TBT 02 Keyboard by triplehaata, on Flickr

I'll try to dig up my Nokia Data keyboard to see if the pinout is the same. The housing seems very similar. Even the mechanism (leaf spring contact vs. coil spring contact) has the same principle.

The ICL switch term pre-dates my joining at Geekhack iirc.

User avatar
vsev

08 Feb 2015, 10:16

As expected your pics (as your knowledge too) are far better from mines, but I'll still try to help as I can.
Later today I'll shoot details and opened switches as you shown, so answers must be cleared this way !

User avatar
Compgeke

08 Feb 2015, 11:27

One thing to keep in mind though is no one can compete with HaaTa in terms of pure amount of switch types owned - if it exists he's seen it, and probably owns it.

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vsev

08 Feb 2015, 13:32

No compete here at all I'm just so pleased that King Haata has answered to one of my posts !
I'm happy to contribute to knowledge down here as far as I can with my little material means !

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Daniel Beardsmore

08 Feb 2015, 13:48

The term "ICL switches" is associated with this switch, used in German and Scandinavian keyboards:

http://deskthority.net/photos-f62/erics ... t5167.html

It's similar to what vsev has, but is not the same.

"ICL switch" implies that it was made in Britain or at the behest of Britain, and while it appears that we did make switches, I've yet to confirm that any other than Alphameric were made by British companies, rather than outsourced manufacturing from the US (as might be the case with ITW and MEI).

To me it seems more likely that these switches came from Germany or Scandinavia, and that ICL were buying them at one point.

It might be that vsev's/HaaTa's are just a different model, or it might be that they just look superficially similar.

User avatar
vsev

08 Feb 2015, 16:30

The switches opened( partially at least)
seems to be exact sames..?
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The caps profile
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That caps lock cap
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User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

08 Feb 2015, 17:01

I want to cry …

No, you and HaaTa have the same switch.

The switch used on the wiki to illustrate the "ICL switch" (that I linked to) is a different switch.

This is sixty's unidentified keyboard (internally marked "SWEDEN" but with German keycaps):
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This is intealls's Ericsson:
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They might be related, but they're not the same design. Yours lack the diode position across the front (and are using the LED hole for the diodes) and the switch bases are larger and touch each other.

Both seem to have a slider that lifts up a metal contact, but while one has what seems to be a gold-plated spring (surely totally overkill) the other just has a flat spring.

There's a good chance that they're related, but I'd like stronger evidence. I'm doubting that ICL ever made them.

pcaro

08 Feb 2015, 20:08

The caps are very very pretty
vsev wrote: The switches opened( partially at least)
seems to be exact sames..?
Spoiler:
overview.JPG
detail_1.JPG
detail_2.JPG
The caps profile
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Alphas_profile.JPG
Numpad_profile.JPG
caps.JPG
That caps lock cap
Spoiler:
lock_1.JPG
lock_2.JPG

User avatar
ramnes
ПБТ НАВСЕГДА

08 Feb 2015, 23:00

Wow, those switches looks really great. But do they FEEL great? :)

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HaaTa
Master Kiibohd Hunter

08 Feb 2015, 23:37

Sorry for high-jacking your vsev :P
Whenever Beardsmore says my speculations need more data I tend to try and get some :D

So, let's get rid of this stupid ICL name, because there's actually a product code on the switches!
ImageDSC_1568 by triplehaata, on Flickr
ImageDSC_1570 by triplehaata, on Flickr

RMD 973
I don't recognize the logo on the right (the three backslashes). A quick google of the switch code gives me nothing relevant. Once the logo can be identified, that will likely help a lot.

These switches are lightly tactile. A bit heavy (a tad frictiony though, more so that MX, but probably less than NMB Hi-Tek).

Unfortunately, all 3 switches (white slider with top casing, white slider without top casing, and dummy red slider without top casing) all have the same RMD 973. The red dummy switch has one of the pins clipped off it seems as well as a little rubber spacer between the leaf and the opposing contact (instead of a little gold spacer for contact) to prevent the switch from switching. The red dummy switch also doesn't have the arm to move the leaf spring.

I see no differences between the switch with and without the top casing (other than the top casing). The top casing interferes with the stabilizer bar, which is why it's not used for stabilized keys.
ImageDSC_1561 by triplehaata, on Flickr

Also notice the large insert in the stabilized keycap.
ImageDSC_1558 by triplehaata, on Flickr

I'll be posting more pics here of the full keyboard as I reassemble the keyboard and keypad.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/triplehaa ... 0296043599

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

09 Feb 2015, 00:01

Are the ones from the Loewe keyboard marked at all?

The three bars match the Ericsson logo, rotated through 90° which makes sense as Ericsson used those switches.

From Wikipedia:

"In 1991 ICL acquired Nokia Data, part of the Finnish Nokia Group. Nokia Data was itself the result of Nokia's mid-1980s acquisition of Ericsson Information Systems, whose origins lay in the purchase by Ericsson of the computer business of Saab, known as Datasaab."

That might explain why ICL ended up using them, if indeed these were used by ICL at some point in time.

User avatar
HaaTa
Master Kiibohd Hunter

09 Feb 2015, 00:12

I'm going to recheck the Loewe keyboard when I find it (currently in an unlabeled box), hopefully today.

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HaaTa
Master Kiibohd Hunter

09 Feb 2015, 02:00

Just to make sure, I desoldered another switch from the Loewe. No markings on the back. Also, I correct myself from above, the white switches are lighter than the black ones. Two of the white switches are in the spacebar.

This keyboard was made around 1984 I think compared to around 1991 for the Nokia Data.

ImageLoewe. TBT 02 Keyboard by triplehaata, on Flickr

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

09 Feb 2015, 09:27

I noticed that the Loewe keyboard had a Philips IC on it, and vsev has the same switches in a Philips keyboard.

That's in comparison to the other switch that's found in Swedish keyboards.

I suspect it will be a while before we know what these are for certain.

User avatar
vsev

09 Feb 2015, 10:00

Do you like me to pic particular details of the pcb or other ? Just ask if, I'll do my best !

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Daniel Beardsmore

09 Feb 2015, 19:26

A photo of the controller IC would be interesting — and any markings on the PCB. i.e. is it contemporary with the Loewe keyboard?

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vsev

10 Feb 2015, 01:01

I'll try tomorrow but maybe just next week as I've to travel for few days.

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HaaTa
Master Kiibohd Hunter

14 Feb 2015, 21:42

Had some time to do a bit more research:

Not quite the same switch, but getting closer I think.

http://cpmdatabase.cpm.chalmers.se/ILCD ... f98712.xml
(easier to read version: http://cpmdatabase.cpm.chalmers.se/Scri ... d=ECOP3225)
Component manufacturer one -- Ericsson product number: RMD 994 002/1 Ericsson description: Push-button switch. General: The push button switch is intended for keyboards and similar applications, where it is mounted on a circuit board. The switch is available in a non-locking model only. PCB thickness 1.6 mm. Design general: Material Lower housing: PA 6.6 GV (Nylon) Upper housing: PA 6.6 GV (Nylon) Contact spring: Phosphorous bronze Actuated stem: Acetal plastic Surface treatment: Contact area: 0,25e-6 m AuAg on Ni Soldering terminals: SnPb on Ni Dimensions Height: 18.5 mm, Length: 15,6 mm, Width: 15,6 mm, Terminal thickness: 2,54 mm Weight: 1,584 g (Ericsson: 2 g)
And another one:
http://www.webforum.com/form/kthima/com ... id=7176280
RMD 943 01/01
PUSH-BUTTON SWITCH

User avatar
Daniel Beardsmore

14 Feb 2015, 23:01

It's looking pretty certain that they are indeed Ericsson.

So, how did we get "ICL switch" out of them?

Findecanor

15 Feb 2015, 01:25

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: So, how did we get "ICL switch" out of them?
Similarly to how we staretd calling clicky SMK switches "Montereys": by finding them in a ICL-branded keyboard. Neither of the earliest found switches, SMK or Ericsson, had any logo.

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