Wodans Trading Terms

User avatar
Wodan
ISO Advocate

09 Dec 2018, 23:09

After a couple of years of very active trading in this community, I feel like putting together a few general points that I would like to refer to whenever I am trading items to community members. There are a few points here that I commonly bring up when trading and other points I often forget to mention. The idea here is not to take advantage over partners but to mention some things that turned out to be important every now and then.

Would appreciate any kind of constructive feedback from other community members, feel free to refer to these terms in your own trades if you think they are a good idea.

Payment
  • Payment is done before shipping and only counts when the full amount has been finally credited
  • Payment fees and currency conversion fees will be charged to the buyer in a flat handling rate.
  • Handling rates range from 2% - 7% depending on source country and source currency. I will estimate the handling rate based on my experience with previous payments. If requested I will provide proof of the actual fees after payment and compensate overcharges by including chocolate in the shipment.
  • In certain trading situations, both partners might agree to a private trade as opposed to a sale. Selling items for a payment will always include a handling fee and buyer protection. Private trades are more flexible in these regards.
Shipping
  • My shipping estimates are from a shipping company that offers me good service and has served me well for years. In this case I only charge the ACTUAL shipping rate and no additional charges.
  • If the recipient insist on specific shipping procedures or services, I reserve the right to charge any additional efforts I have on top of the actually shipping rate.
  • Items shipped will always be 100% covered by shipping insurance. Exceptions can only be made when the payment method does NOT mandate insured shipping (PAYPAL!) and at the explicit request of the recipient.
  • There is no charge for packing material. I do however have plenty of storage-worthy RajaPack BOR50 carboard boxes that I use for my keyboard collection. These can be purchased (2,00€ ea.) to be used for shipping and will serve as great keyboard storage afterwards.
  • Items sold are usually shipped within 3-5 days after payments.
  • Tracking is provided upon request.
  • Please always provide an email address and a phone number for the shipping label (and ideally DHL tracking updates)
  • Please always provide a full shipping address. The shipping address must confirm the address in your PayPal payment if applicable.
Refunds and shipping damage
It gets really interesting here, please read well!
  • Please keep track of your order
  • I don't offer returns and all items are sold as described. Items are usually sold as NOT WORKING, just to be used for parts and restoration projects unless otherwise specified.
  • PayPal transactions can only be refunded within 180 days of the payment. Make sure to file your claim within this time frame!
  • It is the recipients obligation to inspect the parcel upon receipt. File a damage report BEFORE signing for that parcel. Do not accept severely damaged shipments.
  • Once a parcel has been accepted and signed, it becomes very difficult to claim shipping damages with the shipping company. It is the recipients obligation to get an official damage report from his local delivery service confirming the shipping damages. I am not making this up, this is the way things go. With this damage report I can then file a claim with the original shipping company. Without this damage report, I refuse all responsibilty for shipping damages.
  • The recipient must provide full cooperation during the damage claim process and I will only issue a refund after the whole process was successfully completed.
  • Please check your order thoroughly upon receipt and report any missing parts or defects within two weeks.
Would love to hear what you other selling vets think. Am I missing a few points? Am I being too harsh?
Last edited by Wodan on 10 Dec 2018, 10:05, edited 4 times in total.

User avatar
ramnes
ПБТ НАВСЕГДА

09 Dec 2018, 23:59

You're going against PayPal ToS on the fees part, especially if you have a merchant account. Also, I would say that one should not have to request you the tracking number, you should give it by default.

User avatar
Wodan
ISO Advocate

10 Dec 2018, 00:11

Updated OP to reflect concerns regarding the PayPal payment option
Last edited by Wodan on 10 Dec 2018, 09:51, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
chuckdee

10 Dec 2018, 05:03

From: https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/u ... ement-full (Standard Paypal User Agreement)
No surcharges
You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.
I agree that it's a community standard that some people use, but it's in the agreement and can be used against you in case of a charge-back/dispute.

User avatar
abrahamstechnology

10 Dec 2018, 05:59

Sounds good to me (haven't forgotten about those g80s!)

User avatar
Wodan
ISO Advocate

10 Dec 2018, 09:00

chuckdee wrote: From: https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/u ... ement-full (Standard Paypal User Agreement)
No surcharges
You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.
I agree that it's a community standard that some people use, but it's in the agreement and can be used against you in case of a charge-back/dispute.
Okay so charging the buyer a fee is only against the PayPal terms when you directly offer a cheaper or free alternative option.

I am still convinved this is only an issue when using PayPal in an E-Commerce solution. What this says is:

1. You can add a handling fee to your transaction as long as it is not directly related to the PayPal payment.
2. When offering multiple payment methods (ie. In a checkout) the PayPal option has to be the cheapest option.

How does that apply to a communit sale through PM?

Simply ask your buyers if they want to send a payment including fees or prefer another method of money transfer. The teminology is important here I believe. PAYMENTS should only be accepted through PayPal or another similair provider with the identical fees, not handicapping the PayPal option.

If you wish to receive the money by other means (PP F&F, bank transfer) it‘s not a classic payment (no buyer protection, no classic buyer/seller relationship) but just a trade between friends.

So just to be safe it seems like these are important aspects:
- Don‘t offer PayPal payments as a direct and cheaper alternative to direct transfer methods that don‘t have a fee
- Ask the buyer if he wants to send an official payment or make this a trade between friends
- Do not add price tags to these options before one option has been choosen. Mentioning that all payments carry a handling fee is probably okay, no discrimination of PayPal as a PAYMENT option here.

This is much more of an issue when you run a site that is supposed to offer this choice to all buyers without any interactivity and on a general basis. In personal, individual transactions like this, you agree upon a transaction type first, then talk about the handling and fees. Once a buyer has choosen SEPA payment and paid, there is no way for him to file a comlaint with PayPal about being offered SEPA as a cheaper payment option. If the buyer prefers PayPal as the payment option, you will not advertise SEPA or F&F as a cheaper option thus not violating PayPal terms.

Will be revising some terminology in the OP and add this differentiation.

User avatar
Wodan
ISO Advocate

10 Dec 2018, 09:50

Done a pretty substantial revision of the OP. Since I am not running a business and all my transactions are private, I am generally referring to TRADES instead of sales. This is a much better term for what's happening here on DT!

In this spirit, I also stopped using the term "buyer" since it's not suitable in this situation.

User avatar
chuckdee

10 Dec 2018, 20:09

Wodan wrote: So just to be safe it seems like these are important aspects:
- Don‘t offer PayPal payments as a direct and cheaper alternative to direct transfer methods that don‘t have a fee
- Ask the buyer if he wants to send an official payment or make this a trade between friends
- Do not add price tags to these options before one option has been choosen. Mentioning that all payments carry a handling fee is probably okay, no discrimination of PayPal as a PAYMENT option here.
I think you summed it up quite well. And I think that your revised terms protect you against the letter of that TOS.

User avatar
DrPsyche

22 Mar 2019, 09:33

chuckdee wrote:
10 Dec 2018, 05:03
From: https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/usertheessayservice/u... ement-full (Standard Paypal User Agreement)
No surcharges
You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.


I agree that it's a community standard that some people use, but it's in the agreement and can be used against you in case of a charge-back/dispute.
I think it depends on the methods of money transfer rather than the fee amount. Though, I'm not an expert and I did have a tough issue with the dispute on GearBest (turned out I payed without fees).

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