F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

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Twst

16 Apr 2020, 23:28

tentator wrote:
16 Apr 2020, 22:44
how is the solenoid supposed to be mounted inside? I remember somebody else here also posted he managed to put a solenoid in the case.. but still wondering how...
I have some ideas in my mind.
If there is any interest I can do a writeup once I have all the parts and details figured out.
I could include pictures and schematics for everything and how to wire it up. My goal is to use only available parts and easy soldering, with only the provided power of the single usb. ;)

If I figure out a satisfying buzzer, I might try to fit both and have a switchable solenoid and buzzer.
Does anyone happen to know of a suitable buzzer?

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0100010

17 Apr 2020, 03:53

The solenoid in my F107 is held in place with grey (high strength) double sided tape.

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Twst

17 Apr 2020, 19:15

So I found a bigger speaker in my pile of electronics, think is intended usage was a parking sensor beeper.
parkingbuzz.jpg
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overview.jpg
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It gives a better output and a more solid sound without the need of amplifying anything. Trying to fine tune the frequency to come out closer to the original IBM buzzer - so any help here is appreciated :)
Edit;
Here is the buzzer at 550Hz too:
Last edited by Twst on 18 Apr 2020, 14:43, edited 1 time in total.

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tentator

17 Apr 2020, 21:28

Wow! That really sounds like a real solenoid!! Cool!!

Ellipse

17 Apr 2020, 23:09

minnusing there is unfortunately no pad in the left barrel of the space bar so you'd need to design a new PCB, top inner assembly, and inner foam. There is a pad there for the custom scumnc F62 PCB (still available - PM me if you want to switch) so you have 4 keys to the left and 4 to the right of the space bar. viewtopic.php?p=278738#p278738

daphnis I do offer the smaller space bar from my new key molds but the fit is very tight with a 1.5U key to the right of the space bar, and with a 1-2 mm gap if you choose the 1.25U key to the right of the space bar. They are the same size as one of Unicomp's smaller space bars (they offer two smaller space bar sizes I believe, for pre-2013 and 2013 and later designs of their keyboards).

I believe someone got a full solenoid working in their new F62 and posted a few pages back, but we are waiting on the details.

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ddrfraser1

17 Apr 2020, 23:24

tentator wrote:
16 Apr 2020, 22:44
how is the solenoid supposed to be mounted inside? I remember somebody else here also posted he managed to put a solenoid in the case.. but still wondering how...
I plan on doing something like this when I put a solenoid in one of my builds.

I think I'll also experiment with different sound dampening techniques so that I get a nice deep thock rather than high pitched ticks.
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tentator

17 Apr 2020, 23:51

Uhm.. interesting.. but is there enough clearance for that lifted upwards? uhm...

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ddrfraser1

18 Apr 2020, 02:14

I don't know. I think this may actually be from a beam spring but I don't own one so I can't say for sure. I do have an F 107 but it uses a completely different kind of beeper/solenoid.

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AJM

18 Apr 2020, 21:45

I haven't been following the whole discussion, but if you're not sure what the picture, you posted, shows: That's a 5251 beamspring.

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ddrfraser1

18 Apr 2020, 22:47

AJM wrote:
18 Apr 2020, 21:45
I haven't been following the whole discussion, but if you're not sure what the picture, you posted, shows: That's a 5251 beamspring.
Nice. That's what I thought.

cap

19 Apr 2020, 08:35

I had to disassemble my beautiful new F77 because I unknowingly used a vertical (black) stabilizer where I needed a horizontal one, so I needed to remove the barrel holding the wrong stabilizer. I put in a new barrel with the white stabilizer in place, but now I'm having trouble getting the keyboard working and I thought I'd try asking the forum for help instead of bothering Ellipse directly with everything.

I got the keyboard reassembled, and it looks pretty good to me -- good fully closed tab positions, springs dangle in what looks like the typical ways. But when I connect the keyboard to the computer, the keyboard spams a rapid stream of random characters. I can't even run the ibm capsense config tool because the massive character stream includes modifiers and whatnot that controls the (macos) desktop in random ways.

I've opened and re-closed the keyboard several times. Each time it looks good to me physically (but I'm pretty much a noob with Model F internals), but I get the same character storm.

Now get this: if I connect the PCB and controller to the computer, alone and not clipped into the key assembly, then there is no rapid stream of key input, and I can actuate individual keys by placing a flipper on individual pads on the PCB. The actuations show up as expected in the ibm capsense tool. Is this a useful clue? It's as if there's a mechanical problem where the PCB is activated when it's clamped into the key assembly. There are no keycaps on the board. Is it okay that I'm connecting the keyboard to the computer before all the keycaps are installed, or is that itself the problem?

Chris

User avatar
Twst

19 Apr 2020, 09:30

cap wrote:
19 Apr 2020, 08:35
There are no keycaps on the board. Is it okay that I'm connecting the keyboard to the computer before all the keycaps are installed, or is that itself the problem?

Chris
Hi Chris!
You are correct.
When there are no keycaps, all the flippers will rest on the pcb giving you pressed keys all over.

If you are to test the board without caps, you could free the flippers with resting the keyboard vertically, spacebar side up. ;)

Also, if you ever need to rearrange again there is a trick pulling the stabilizer inserts without dissambling involving a couple of Q-tips.

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E3E

19 Apr 2020, 11:50

Wouldn't removing a stablizer that way still not solve the issue? They'd need to place a flipper in that position if I've understood correctly.

cods

19 Apr 2020, 12:25

Hey @ellipse, I just checked backward a few pages through to late March, and on the website. Maybe I missed the obvious update!
No issues, no hurry, but do you have a rough estimate of when the keyboards with printed keys will perhaps head out from sunny USA?
Again, no stress, just wondering.
Stay well.

cap

19 Apr 2020, 19:36

I got my F77 working.

@Twst, thanks for the confirmation about the keys needing to be present. That got me 90% there. I had already tried the Q-Tip trick to remove the stabilizer, but the stabilizer was way too tight for that to work. I tried stuffing two Q-Tips in, as shown in the video, and that wasn't even close to enough grip. Now that the barrel is out of the keyboard, I could probably push the stabilizer out with a vise and a pin punch, but instead I think I'll just stash this barrel in my spare parts kit as is, in case I ever work on a keyboard that needs a vertical stabilizer barrel. (I bought the first-aid kit so I have some spare barrels and stabilizers.)

@E3E, I don't need a flipper there, where the stabilizer was. I was working on installing the Enter key (ANSI, horizontal bar). My keyboard came without keys, and I was installing keys I'm borrowing from one of my Unicomp keyboards. There was a spring/flipper in the right-side barrel, and an empty left-side barrel. All I needed to do was push a white stabilizer into the empty barrel, but instead I pushed in a black one. Learning here.

The final adjustment was that I had to change the voltage threshold to 123. At the initial value of 122, there were a few keys going off occasionally without any typing, and some ghosting from a few keys when I typed them. At 123, the keyboard has been completely stable since I made the change (an hour ago, so 🤞).

This project and this keyboard are amazing!

Chris

consensual-penis

20 Apr 2020, 00:47

any dyesub updates?

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depletedvespene

20 Apr 2020, 21:57

Twst wrote:
16 Apr 2020, 15:28
Having three layer keys already was enough 8-)
Speak for yourself. 8-) 8-) 8-)

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robo

21 Apr 2020, 18:18

I just want to say, all you people resorting to complex electromechanical devices just to make your keyboards even louder... you aren't right in the head ;)

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depletedvespene

21 Apr 2020, 19:16

robo wrote:
21 Apr 2020, 18:18
I just want to say, all you people resorting to complex electromechanical devices just to make your keyboards even louder... you aren't right in the head ;)
You might even say that someone who isn't satisfied by a simple rubber dome keyboard is insane (in the membrane). 8-)

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darkcruix

22 Apr 2020, 14:31

Ellipse, I hope all is well on your end and the current situation is not impacting you too much. I know it is hard to speculate, but what would you say is the current time frame of getting the dye sublimation process into production? I think you mentioned June in an earlier thread, is this still feasible?

xyzzy

23 Apr 2020, 18:05

I've received today the F62 keyboard I ordered in early 2016... I can say it was totally worth the wait!

The package is superb! Even though the keyboard is not double boxed and the box was a bit beaten on the corners, inside everything was perfect. The keyboard survived the transoceanic trip perfectly - it took 2 weeks from the U.S. to Italy, including 1 week stuck in customs.

The keyboard itself weights A TON, really I couldn't believe how heavy it was when I picked it up for the first time. I was a bit worried about some of the reviews that mentioned springs out of place, keys not registering correctly, having to tweak the firmware values, etc... In my case, I did not have to touch anything: I just plugged the USB cable in my Macbook and everything worked perfectly.

I am also struggling to find the "cosmetic imperfections" I have seen in some photos, I swear I can't find a single defect in this unit. I also swear I've not been paid by Ellipse for these words, it's just I'm so excited and impressed by the top notch quality of this keyboard.

The key feel is superb. My daily keyboard is the Model M SSK and I didn't actually use a Model F so far. I couldn't understand how the F could be better as other people said, now I do: it's so much smoother and lighter it's a pleasure to use - I guess this is going to replace the SSK on my desk from now on.

At the moment I'm using the stock blank keycaps that were installed by Ellipse. This has the HHKB layout which I'm already used to - I also have (and love) an HHKB so it took just a few minutes to get back to work at full speed. I'll see in the next days how it performs with the Model M keycaps.

Here a couple of photos, please excuse the bad light and camera, but that's what I have. And again, thanks a lot Ellipse, can't believe you reached these astonishing results!

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Admiral

23 Apr 2020, 22:56

Progress is looking good on these keyboards. I can't wait to type on mine.

I also have been seeing people placing Solenoids in the chassis, and it makes me laugh at just how outrageously noisy yet awesome this keyboard can sound. Really cool, unique idea.

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ddrfraser1

24 Apr 2020, 16:11

Not sure about the voltage (honestly I have no idea how these things work) but I found this vid and bought the exact solenoid for a different project simply because I was looking for one with a good sound, not too high pitched.


link to buy:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LB ... UTF8&psc=1

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Twst

24 Apr 2020, 17:41

ddrfraser1 wrote:
24 Apr 2020, 16:11
Not sure about the voltage (honestly I have no idea how these things work) but I found this vid and bought the exact solenoid for a different project simply because I was looking for one with a good sound, not too high pitched.
Spoiler:
link to buy:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LB ... UTF8&psc=1
Cool video giving ideas to dampen the solenoid for tuning the sound!

Be aware that the solenoid in the video is a 24V one and the one you linked is rated for 12V. So depending on your application you should look over the specs.

It might fit inside a keyboard, but you should not try to run it off USB voltage. Reading the comments, its about 7 ohms and it will have a current draw of 1.7A at 12V. The USB standard is rated at 5V 500mA, so even you boost your voltage to 12v you will be running out of juice very quickly tripping the USB fuse or/and damage the port or xwhatsit controller.
However if you run a separate power supply with the appropriate specs you should be fine. ;)

For a keyboard you should look at solenoids having a shorter throw. 10mm could result in a sluggish response considering the time spent for a full movement. The ones IBM use moves just a few mm.

User avatar
ddrfraser1

24 Apr 2020, 18:00

Twst wrote:
24 Apr 2020, 17:41
ddrfraser1 wrote:
24 Apr 2020, 16:11
Not sure about the voltage (honestly I have no idea how these things work) but I found this vid and bought the exact solenoid for a different project simply because I was looking for one with a good sound, not too high pitched.
Spoiler:
link to buy:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LB ... UTF8&psc=1
Cool video giving ideas to dampen the solenoid for tuning the sound!

Be aware that the solenoid in the video is a 24V one and the one you linked is rated for 12V. So depending on your application you should look over the specs.

It might fit inside a keyboard, but you should not try to run it off USB voltage. Reading the comments, its about 7 ohms and it will have a current draw of 1.7A at 12V. The USB standard is rated at 5V 500mA, so even you boost your voltage to 12v you will be running out of juice very quickly tripping the USB fuse or/and damage the port or xwhatsit controller.
However if you run a separate power supply with the appropriate specs you should be fine. ;)

For a keyboard you should look at solenoids having a shorter throw. 10mm could result in a sluggish response considering the time spent for a full movement. The ones IBM use moves just a few mm.
Good info, thanks. I thought 12v might be high.

gravesdesk

24 Apr 2020, 22:32

Twst wrote:
24 Apr 2020, 17:41
ddrfraser1 wrote:
24 Apr 2020, 16:11
Not sure about the voltage (honestly I have no idea how these things work) but I found this vid and bought the exact solenoid for a different project simply because I was looking for one with a good sound, not too high pitched.
Spoiler:
link to buy:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LB ... UTF8&psc=1
Cool video giving ideas to dampen the solenoid for tuning the sound!

Be aware that the solenoid in the video is a 24V one and the one you linked is rated for 12V. So depending on your application you should look over the specs.

It might fit inside a keyboard, but you should not try to run it off USB voltage. Reading the comments, its about 7 ohms and it will have a current draw of 1.7A at 12V. The USB standard is rated at 5V 500mA, so even you boost your voltage to 12v you will be running out of juice very quickly tripping the USB fuse or/and damage the port or xwhatsit controller.
However if you run a separate power supply with the appropriate specs you should be fine. ;)

For a keyboard you should look at solenoids having a shorter throw. 10mm could result in a sluggish response considering the time spent for a full movement. The ones IBM use moves just a few mm.
what about this one?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000843 ... hweb201603_

User avatar
Twst

24 Apr 2020, 23:38

gravesdesk wrote:
24 Apr 2020, 22:32
Spoiler:
Twst wrote:
24 Apr 2020, 17:41
ddrfraser1 wrote:
24 Apr 2020, 16:11
Not sure about the voltage (honestly I have no idea how these things work) but I found this vid and bought the exact solenoid for a different project simply because I was looking for one with a good sound, not too high pitched.
Spoiler:
link to buy:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LB ... UTF8&psc=1
Cool video giving ideas to dampen the solenoid for tuning the sound!

Be aware that the solenoid in the video is a 24V one and the one you linked is rated for 12V. So depending on your application you should look over the specs.

It might fit inside a keyboard, but you should not try to run it off USB voltage. Reading the comments, its about 7 ohms and it will have a current draw of 1.7A at 12V. The USB standard is rated at 5V 500mA, so even you boost your voltage to 12v you will be running out of juice very quickly tripping the USB fuse or/and damage the port or xwhatsit controller.
However if you run a separate power supply with the appropriate specs you should be fine. ;)

For a keyboard you should look at solenoids having a shorter throw. 10mm could result in a sluggish response considering the time spent for a full movement. The ones IBM use moves just a few mm.
what about this one?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000843 ... hweb201603_
Current wise, 150mA at 4.2V you should be fine on USB power. But I think that one is intended for controlling air flow, passing air through the valve. So it wont actually make any noise inside a keyboard.
The push/pull type is the one you want, as it have a pin that moves back an forth.

Just a heads up for anyone interested in testing out solenoids.
Before you hook up a solenoid to your new and shiny keyboard, regardless of the specs of the solenoid. You need to have some kind of a driver board to trigger the low current signal from the xwhatsit controller. Hooking it directly up to the controller will most likely fry the keyboard, leaving you with a nice looking brick. :?

gravesdesk

26 Apr 2020, 23:37

Twst wrote:
24 Apr 2020, 23:38
gravesdesk wrote:
24 Apr 2020, 22:32
Spoiler:
Twst wrote:
24 Apr 2020, 17:41


Cool video giving ideas to dampen the solenoid for tuning the sound!

Be aware that the solenoid in the video is a 24V one and the one you linked is rated for 12V. So depending on your application you should look over the specs.

It might fit inside a keyboard, but you should not try to run it off USB voltage. Reading the comments, its about 7 ohms and it will have a current draw of 1.7A at 12V. The USB standard is rated at 5V 500mA, so even you boost your voltage to 12v you will be running out of juice very quickly tripping the USB fuse or/and damage the port or xwhatsit controller.
However if you run a separate power supply with the appropriate specs you should be fine. ;)

For a keyboard you should look at solenoids having a shorter throw. 10mm could result in a sluggish response considering the time spent for a full movement. The ones IBM use moves just a few mm.
what about this one?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000843 ... hweb201603_
Current wise, 150mA at 4.2V you should be fine on USB power. But I think that one is intended for controlling air flow, passing air through the valve. So it wont actually make any noise inside a keyboard.
The push/pull type is the one you want, as it have a pin that moves back an forth.

Just a heads up for anyone interested in testing out solenoids.
Before you hook up a solenoid to your new and shiny keyboard, regardless of the specs of the solenoid. You need to have some kind of a driver board to trigger the low current signal from the xwhatsit controller. Hooking it directly up to the controller will most likely fry the keyboard, leaving you with a nice looking brick. :?

That's why I am seeking up for a group buy project which includes a ready-to-install driver and solenoid...
I hope someone produces a dedicated driver and solenoid for new model Fs.

consensual-penis

29 Apr 2020, 20:14

Is Elipse doing okay? Haven't heard from him and a while and haven't gotten a reply to my email.

While I would love a reply to the email, I would rather know if he's doing okay. The guy has the weight of the world on his shoulders.

User avatar
ddrfraser1

29 Apr 2020, 20:16

I got a package from him the other week.

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