When will the Topre Patent expire?

[ebonydax]

I noticed the two patents found on Google Patents are both published in 1986 and with filing dates of 1984 and 1982.

https://www.google.com/patents/EP007098 ... CD4Q6AEwAQ
https://www.google.com/patents/EP007098 ... CD4Q6AEwAQ

[Muirium]

Good question. Hopefully it's not anything like the IP protection mess around Mickey Mouse:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_ ... ension_Act

But patents are pretty bizarre these days. I wouldn't be surprised if it's arbitrarily extensible by trivial legal tinkering.

A related question: does it matter? The world's not exactly awash with clones of any keyboard switch, any more.

[ebonydax]

It matters a lot in my opinion since a lot of people like them but they keep being treated by their mother company in a very secluded manner. They are forced to be made in Japan, they can be afforded only by two other makers and they are generally treated like a luxury item. I seriously doubt they must be made in Japan and that their price must be that high if anyone could make them. Quality doesn't necessasarily have to drop if done properly.

[Grond]

Yeah but even if the patent was free, who would be investing in machinery to build Topre clones? Even for companies like Diatec it's probably cheaper to buy switches from Cherry I guess.

[dondy]

if the patent was free other switch producers could put it in their portfolio (cherry should have anything needed to produce them f.e. as they are producing rubberdomes anyways) and there would be a price drop for topre boards, most likely.

but that's just asking "what if" one way or the other.

[Muirium]

Aren't the new Leopold 660C and Topre "Type Heaven" made in China?

http://deskthority.net/news-reviews-f4/ ... t5903.html

I assumed the switches would be Chinese too. But I guess they could still be shipped from Japan.

[002]

I wonder if Topre would even give a shit if someone wanted to try and copy them. If another company came along who could produce a capacitive switch keyboard close to being on par with a Realforce in terms of quality and reliability, then power to them. I won't be holding my breath though, because as Grond says, it's simply much safer for them to go the Cherry route. If someone could make a Topre knock-off with Cherry stems they might be on to something

[ebonydax]

MX is a good idea. If their mass production is relatively 'market price fair' now then it's most likely that Topre would drop to lower levels. Perhaps not necessarily to MX levels, but those $250 keyboards just sound silly in value over money.

I doubt Leopold makes switches in China. They are shipped from Topre as far as I know.

[002]

I assumed the switches would be Chinese too. But I guess they could still be shipped from Japan.

Topre still make the switches, which I am assuming in turn would mean then basically make the entire guts of the keyboard (PCB, Controller, Springs, Rubber Sheet, Switch Housing).

I'd imagine that Topre's agreement with Leopold and whichever factory is making the Type Heaven is similar to the one they might have with a Japanese company such as Sony for the BKE keyboards. That's really just a guess though...I don't think Topre made the cases for the giant Sony editing keyboards.

[Muirium]

Doesn't Topre make the HHKB, under license for PFU/Fujitsu? Or have I got it the wrong way around?

As for pricing:Topre will move its prices down the moment it makes sense to. Right now, people are willing to pay the extra. It's not necessary for everyone to cater for every sector of the market. Necessity being dictated by profit.

[ebonydax]

They get profits, sure, but their policy gives the impression that they are pushing the extends of their monopoly on the patent to the furthest possible. The result is that some rich (or poor but foolish) people will buy them, no questions asked, but the policy appears so aggressive that I think it's bad for their reputation. Everyone that does a 10 minute research can realize those switches don't have to be limited in production inside Japan and that only 1 or 2 other makers or distributors find their pricing model fair to invest in it. That is also bad for the technology in whole since it is very limited. Basically only Topre and 2 other models exist for the home computer market.

[002]

Doesn't Topre make the HHKB, under license for PFU/Fujitsu? Or have I got it the wrong way around?

I don't know about the HHKB but I would guess that Topre make the whole thing. The reason I'm not sure is because of the moulded plate; there's no other Topre keyboard like that. I have to wonder if PFU make that bit themselves or get Topre to do it that way - either way it fuckin' sucks and HHKB should use metal. Kinda going off topic here woo!

[webwit]

I'd imagine that Topre's agreement with Leopold and whichever factory is making the Type Heaven is similar to the one they might have with a Japanese company such as Sony for the BKE keyboards. That's really just a guess though...I don't think Topre made the cases for the giant Sony editing keyboards.

You forgot this one:
http://deskthority.net/wiki/%CE%9CTRON

So much variables at play with the Type Heaven. Is it cheaper because of mass production, partly Chinese cheaper labor, or skipping on quality control. And if qc is involved, does the original Topre qc turn out to be purely academic and unnecessary for most consumers, or something that will make a difference.

[ebonydax]

I doubt that qc is more ..quality than that on MX switches. I personally find zero problems of qc on Cherry. Their design is such, and the result is what the design dictates. e.g. The main problem I find on them is the inherent scratchiness and that's why I oil them, but that's completely unrelated to qc. They are designed that way.

[webwit]

Vertical leaf switches...
That's why buckling spring rules!

[002]

I personally find zero problems of qc on Cherry.

*cough*

[ebonydax]

Well I do. They work. I don't like how they are a hell of plastic on plastic and I have to oil the friction points but they work.

[Muirium]

And don't forget the click-free clicky MX blues.

[dondy]

i think it doesn't make sense to compare quality control of a switch maker (cherry) to the quality control of someone who does the complete innards. it's not like cherry sits behind people producing cherry keyboards and does quality control on them.

it would make sense of you'd consider only cherry keyboards assembled by cherry and whoever might do the assembly - which doesn't seem to be the point here though.

so i would suggest you'd compare topre-stuff directly with more similar stuff like... producing a rubberdome keyboard.

[webwit]

And thus the Switch Wars begun...

[IvanIvanovich]

It would probably be easiest if one of the giants like Logitech simply bought Topre out.

[002]

i think it doesn't make sense to compare quality control of a switch maker (cherry) to the quality control of someone who does the complete innards. it's not like cherry sits behind people producing cherry keyboards and does quality control on them.

Probably precisely the reason Topre doesn't want to let any old company use their gear. Imagine the iOne Realisticforce 87U - fuck that.

[Soarer]

Probably precisely the reason Topre doesn't want to let any old company use their gear. Imagine the iOne Realisticforce 87U - fuck that.

Oh... is iOne the maker of the new cheaper Chinese-made Topres announced recently?

[002]

Sorry - no, they aren't...well actually I don't know the answer to that, but I hope not! I was just trying to make a point that if Topre had a similar sales/licensing model to Cherry, we would surely see some cheap and nasty keyboards (iOne) as a result of it and I think it would just damage/cheapen Topre in the end. They already cop enough flak about being rubber dome.

[Muirium]

Arguments about Topre and mass market appeal would make a lot more sense if >99% of keyboards sold weren't already just eWaste. Every single buyer who cares about their keyboard is, by definition, boutique. All price consciousness screams disposable cheapo board. Stat! Wear? Who cares. Just buy ten! Bargain.

[Findecanor]

Vertical leaf switches...

Yeah, leaf switches should be horizontal like on Cherry MY and ICL switches so that the friction they add becomes insignificant.

[ebonydax]

The fact one keyboard would be nasty, doesn't mean you have to go out of your way, put your hand in your pocket and buy it.

It reminds of the political anti-arguments about guns: "if an armed robbery can happen while something is illegal then surely no laws are needed at all!".

Just because something good or bad happens in the world it doesn't automatically contaminate everything. Don't think in absolutes, it's silly.

[002]

I am still trying to figure out what it is that you want, ebonydax.
From what I can gather on your posts here and as 'fateswarm' on geekhack you basically want Topre to let everyone make use of their switch technology, without understanding that Topre switches can't be sold in a neat little container like Cherry or Alps. Nobody here can answer you about whether or not a Topre switch could be produced elsewhere for a lot cheaper and maintain the same quality because it's never happened and we'd all just be theorising.

As far as I know, Cherry don't let anyone else make their switches anyway (correct me if I'm wrong) so really they are no more friendly than Topre. The difference is they can easily sell their switches because they're simple enough to work with that even a community can come together and make a Cherry keyboard from scratch.

[davkol]

derp

[Muirium]

Doubtless, Topre is eagerly reading foreign language keyboard enthusiast threads about how much better humanity would be if the company were to stop thinking about making money and some of the world's best keyboards, and just be "open" instead. Because who needs a viable business when you can drown in clones of your own design?

This kind of reasoning comes straight from the open source software movement. I'm sure it gets applied to even less appropriate analogues (Why can't we make our own Porsche 911 clones? The design is decades old!) but high end, non-mass-market human interface hardware isn't exactly a neat fit either.