Looking for a cheap keyboard

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I am not sure what the OP means by "responsive" but I find the Apple Wired Aluminium keyboard to be pretty limp. It's pretty rubbish by scissor standards.

[scottc]

They show up plentifully over here. (I had to contrive a complex eBay search string back when I was hunting for an Apple Extended Keyboard II just to exclude the buggers!) Apple's laptop keyboards are thoroughly meh, and the Bluetooth one is only better for its solid wireless. The desktop one doesn't appeal to me at all. Although it's better than the shite with transparent enclosures they shipped before! One of those monsters was what clued me into the concept of keyboard quality in the first place: NOT THIS!!

You know, this often really confuses me. Apple seem to be really uptight about keeping this outward appearance of real finesse and polish and their reputation for quality, but their keyboards really really suck. I wonder why they don't pay more attention to the desktop ones, at least. It's not as if they're trying to make a cheap buck, they already do that and more on everything else they sell. Maybe they don't go mechanical to keep this uniform keyboard feel across all their devices. These are kind of the things that keep us up at night...

[Hypersphere]

I am not sure what the OP means by "responsive" but I find the Apple Wired Aluminium keyboard to be pretty limp. It's pretty rubbish by scissor standards.

Yep, I would agree. Nevertheless, it gives me enough feedback to know I've typed something. It might be a tall order to fulfill all the criteria for 30 to 40 dollars.

Back to typing on my IBM XT keyboard, where I definitely feel and hear the response! (BTW, I have purchased XTs in good working order from eBay for as little as $19. The one I am using now cost $51; all I did to it was some cleaning, remapping to a HHKB/Mac layout using free software, and swapping some keys to match the new layout. Of course, to enable it to work with a modern computer, you need to wire up a Teensy or equivalent breakout board or plug it into a Hagstrom converter).

[Muirium]

The current Apple keyboard lineup came out in 2007 as I recall. They only bump their peripherals at the most glacial of paces. Think the Magic Mouse was 2010 and the Trackpad maybe 2011. Anyway, the look of all of them is obviously nice and minimal; they look good on a birch tabletop, next to any Apple hardware. Just a pity they suck for typing. That's pretty much Matias' niche right there, except that he chose to copy the hated millennial polycarbonate style that RJ and I loathe alike! Come on Edgar, there's no advantage in that!

If Apple wanted to please me no end, they'd do a deal with Topre and make a fine high end desktop keyboard based on Topre's switches. Charge even more than Topre typically does, have one at every Mac Pro in the Apple Stores, and make a good impression! I have zero expectations that this will ever happen — the current consistency with their laptops is clearly on purpose, and Apple's right at the forefront of downplaying hardware keyboards in general — but it's a nice wee thought. Honestly, I expect dual touchscreen laptops from Apple with no keyboard at all, when they can do it. Wouldn't be much of a downgrade on the current tactile feel…

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Yep, I would agree. Nevertheless, it gives me enough feedback to know I've typed something.

I don't find that I get enough feedback from it.

Apple haven't made a good keyboard in many years. The Matias Tactile Pro was created to fill that void. I'm also hoping to buy that Strong Man Apple-style keyboard off ascaii when he resurfaces — it looks nicer than the Tactile Pro, and I'll get a chance to try tactile simplified Alps at long last.

While it's likely true that Apple wanted to unify laptop and desktop keyboards (which stands to reason), I would at least expect them to find a good scissor manufacturer. Even my cheap Trust keyboard was way better than Apple's keyboards, and there are some other nice scissors out there, such as whatever was in the Latitude E4310 (the keyboard on that was exceptional).

Apple need educating on what a good scissor switch feels like.

[Muirium]

The Matias Tactile Pro was created to fill that void. I'm also hoping to buy that Strong Man Apple-style keyboard off ascaii when he resurfaces — it looks nicer than the Tactile Pro, and I'll get a chance to try tactile simplified Alps at long last.

Ah, I had my eye on that one too. But it's all yours, as it's something you've been waiting for. My AEK II is tactile simplified Alps, I think. Or are you talking about undamped tactile? Mine is white Alps: supposedly the bad ones for an AEK II, but I quite like it, and my loose sampler switch compared to the other damped tactiles.

[Hypersphere]

Messrs. Beardsmore and Muirium, I certainly agree with your views on Apple keyboards. Moreover, for me at least, their mice have been a far worse disaster than their keyboards.

In any event, given that Apple seems intent on eventually merging OS X with iOS, their classical desktop might ultimately disappear. More's the pity, as I was converted to the Mac a few years ago, and I like using OS X layered onto unix, which is immediately accessible by opening a terminal.

For those who like trackpads, Apple does seem to have done a good job with the trackpads on their laptops and the Magic Trackpad for the desktop.

Back to their keyboards, I use an Apple wireless to talk to my Mac mini entertainment center and I use a Macbook air for my portable. I can be contextual about keyboards, and because I use the Apple wireless and the Macbook keyboards only intermittently, I can tolerate them for getting the immediate jobs done.

I brought up Apple keyboards in this thread in an effort to support something that would meet at least a couple of tape_artist"s criteria. They are certainly far from perfect, but if I had nothing else to use for a while, I could make it work for me.

Unfortunately, I have no direct experience with other boards in the 30-40 USD bracket. If I needed to purchase an entry-level board in this price range, I would probably go to Amazon and look for popular boards with 4+ star ratings from customers.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Ah, I had my eye on that one too. But it's all yours, as it's something you've been waiting for. My AEK II is tactile simplified Alps, I think. Or are you talking about undamped tactile? Mine is white Alps: supposedly the bad ones for an AEK II, but I quite like it, and my loose sampler switch compared to the other damped tactiles.

ascaii has yet to post a switch photo, but I assume it's Alps SKBM Black, undamped tactile, same as what was in the ABS M1, except this is ISO (hence why I never bought the M1). I don't need it — OTOH I do want to cut open one of the Futaba switches in his Futaba keyboard to see what's inside a non-click one. I might be able to rename "Futaba clicky switch" once I'm satisfied I understand how they work inside.

I sense that the variation from wear greatly exceeds the inherent differences between pine and bamboo Alps switches, so Alps SKCM White Damped could easily feel much better that Cream Damped, same as how I have a pine white keyboard that feels absolutely terrible and is borderline unusable, despite appearing to be in great shape.

[Muirium]

Alps: the more you see, the less you know.

I'll do my usual bit of defence of the Magic Mouse. It's the best one — for me — that I've ever used. Touch scrolling is a vast improvement on notched wheels, with inertia even more so, and mine weighs a fraction what it did when stock with AAs because I use an inductive Mobee charger so it never runs out. It's surely no good on any other platform, and it's too low for many fellow Apple users, but not for me. As luck would have it, they made just the one I wanted!

The trackpads are pretty sweet, too. They could spare the bollocks about using a "glass" surface though. It's plastic. I've worn a glossy patch on every one that I've tried. Just like ABS caps.

[Hypersphere]

Alps: the more you see, the less you know.

I'll do my usual bit of defence of the Magic Mouse. It's the best one — for me — that I've ever used. Touch scrolling is a vast improvement on notched wheels, with inertia even more so, and mine weighs a fraction what it did when stock with AAs because I use an inductive Mobee charger so it never runs out. It's surely no good on any other platform, and it's too low for many fellow Apple users, but not for me. As luck would have it, they made just the one I wanted!

The trackpads are pretty sweet, too. They could spare the bollocks about using a "glass" surface though. It's plastic. I've worn a glossy patch on every one that I've tried. Just like ABS caps.

This surprises me greatly. We have been in accord on almost everything but this. I find the Magic Mouse to be the worst device of its kind ever made. For me, the best mouse ever is the Razer DeathAdder Black Edition. For one thing, they have done something magic with the smooth outer shell. It must be PBT, because even after prolonged intensive use, it continues to feel agreeably dry.

[Muirium]

Mice are a whole other dimension of device, unto themselves. I am, and have always been, a fingertip gripper. I like my mouse to be centred under my knuckles, controlled by my fingers, rather than centred under my palm, guided by the whole hand. But I wasn't even aware of there being different mousing styles until I stumbled into it while reading mouse reviews here. A quick search brings them up:

http://deskthority.net/search.php?keywords=grip

I'm not sure if there's any advantage to my way of using mice. It certainly didn't feel like it, back in my Intellimouse Explorer days! But for what it's worth I've never had any mousing RSI, and I was always a hell of an accurate sniper in my Battlefield tour of duty. I flick mice around real fast, using low sensitivity on the system instead. When I first plugged a mouse into my PowerBook, I was surprised to find OS X (Jaguar at the time…) was set up nicely for my style by default. On Windows and Linux I forever had to dial things down. I get tense trying to move a mouse too slowly. It just doesn't come naturally with my grip.

And quite the opposite is true for many other people! Mice are strange like that.

[Findecanor]

I don't know where you got the idea that I was trolling from. It fits the price requirement, and is one of the few nice mechanical boards that you can reliably get for about $40 in the US and definitely deserves a mention. Unlike Topre boards and Ergodoxes.

Sure it fits the price requirement, but he asked for a keyboard that was like the UltraX.

It is more a syndrome over on Geekhack where you see at least once every week a new poster that asks for keyboard buying advice and gets lots of suggestions that are way off from what he asked for. I am so sick and tired of that. Often when someone asks for a keyboard that has a numpad, he gets suggestions for a compact Happy Hacking Keyboard, ... and when someone asks for good scissor switches he gets suggestions for keyboards with buckling springs.

[Compgeke]

Well, as the keyboard elitists we have to suggest multiple options that aren't what you want.

Think of it like ordering fast food. Every time you order something they always ask "Would you like to upgrade that to a large" or "Would you like to try [whatever]." In our case it's "Would you like to upgrade to a keyboard that'll drive everyone crazy?" and "Would you like to try buckling springs?"

[tape_artist]

Well this is starting to look like a real thread, maybe we will even get some flaming on? Flaming is nice (and puts our keyboards to good use)

Fortunately, DT is usually free of flamewars. It's a pretty nice place to be, at least it has been for as long as I've been here. Flamewars aren't a good use of a keyboard, because after just a few of them you'll probably end up exceeding the 50 million keystroke lifetime of your 1/! key and wearing it out.

If you want one of the Apple wired keyboards, I have one at home in good condition that I don't want/need and could probably sell it to you cheaply if you don't want to buy ne0phyte's (but you should buy his because he's a cool bro and he needs money for some camping stuff)... but I'm on an extended holiday abroad until July. And I live in Ireland, so I have no idea about US shipping.

Hmmm, I don't live in the US, Croatia is my home country. If you are willing to ship, I would like to try it... Who knows maybe I would like it.

A a follow up, there is only one mouse that can be considered as the best. It's Microsoft wheel mouse optical. Period. Never have I found a better alternative.

[scottc]

Sorry, I assumed you were in the US since you specified prices in $$$.

I'll have a look for it when I get home. But as I said previously, I'm not going to be at home for another month. I can't tell you about condition or cleanliness or anything until at least then. So I think you should consider buying ne0phyte's cheap one instead, and spend the next month saving up some more money for a better keyboard.

[tape_artist]

Well saving is going to be a big issues for me. You have to take into account that the world cup begins in 4 days. Therefore I will need as much money as I can get for beer and hard liquor. I hope we don't get completely demolished in the first game against Brazil. Sorry for the off topic.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Save your money for keyboards that you get to enjoy every day for years to come, rather than for chemicals that make a mess out of you and take your memories away.

[amospalla]

Can't agree more with Daniel.

I've used for almost 10 years a Trust KB-1450, which has been the best (new) keyboard I ever could have for 20€, really. I remember ten years ago staying one hour on a shop trying keyboards, all of them, and there were only rubber dome and scissor keyboards there; I tried and tried and I could not understand why that 20 € Trust keyboard (I avoid Trust products like plague, sorry Trust) felt way better than any Logitech or Microsoft which could cost almost 100€, and finally got it. I didn't know anything about keyboards, except they had letters on them.

Now, years later I realize I bought a scissor keyboard, cheap, but much better than any rubber dome I can think of.

I started to look for something better some months ago after a friend of mine got a mechanical keyboard. I was aware of them, but never had one, and so I started the search. With some patience I found nice things on second hand, like my current IBM Model M2 (10€) and my Acer switch based 6312-ta (5€). Any of them feels way better than that scissor keyboard, which I stopped using (It stills works perfectly).

With this said, you can get nice keyboards for 10-20€ on second hand if you search and wait a bit, but if you don't want to take that route, a scissor keyboard is nicer than a rubber dome.

With this said, sorry for answering exactly to your question, but I can't recommend anything else.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Scissor switches are rubber dome. Full-travel rubber dome keyboards have a plastic layer above the domes (normally part of the case itself) with guide shafts for the sliders or keycaps:

[wiki]Rubber dome over membrane[/wiki]

Scissor switches do away with that guide shaft layer by using little pantographs attached to a thin metal plate above the membranes. It's just a way to reduce the height a little bit.

[wiki]Scissor switch[/wiki]

The feel of scissor switches varies all the way from sharp and snappy through indistinct and mushy down to limp and soggy, just as with a straight rubber dome keyboard. I find Apple's to be the worst of all; Sony's feel marginally better. Of course, it all depends on the OEM, and companies do change OEM, especially Dell. The same laptop might use keyboards from three different OEMs.

The KB-1450 just happens to be a fairly good scissor switch. It's not great, but it's certainly more than adequate, and it does have the metal plate the OP requested.

[amospalla]

I see, thank you very much for the rectification

[tape_artist]

Let's say for the sake of the argument, I was to get some random money... And some of that money I decide to invest into a keyboard with some clickety clack keys (let's say I like the sound of mx blues, if I understood the youtube review of key correctly). Which affordable keyboard would you suggest. Mind you I do not need any "gaming" fatal1ty, uber supa dupa features (like macro keys, etc), maybe nkro and backlight (if it's not to strong), and if it does not drive the price through the roof.

Tried to find that Trust (they do sometimes make some good value products) keyboard, but could not find one in Croatia.

[Compgeke]

I know Coolermaster and Rosewill make some cheap ones that, with minor additions (like using a 90 degree USB cable), work quite well for the price. I have a RK9000 with reds modified with a black petal controller and it has NKRO (on USB even using the Easy AVR firmware) but not backlighting. The setup would cost roughly $120 USD if my in-head calculations are right for remembering about what the cost for the controller and keyboard are.

One thing about MX switches is you can usually test them at any big electronics retailer. I know around here we have at least 3 that have some sort of mechanical keyboards at in-store markup prices but they all have demo units so you can determine whether or not you would want a specific switch.

[Muirium]

Only in America! Here in Edinburgh, there's only one store in town with mechanical keyboards (Maplin, with a single line of Razer monstrosity) and only one switch to choose from and tap through a hole in the packaging: MX blue. (Or is it Kailh?) Last year there were zero. It's a terrible way to try a switch, too, as my own MX blues feel so much better than that. You get all the squish from the demo keyboard's packaging superimposed on the key feel.

In Europe, the cheapest goto MX board is the Coolermaster Quick Fire Rapid. But CM plays silly games in Europe and you'll find that switch choices are limited to particular countries! They're also more expensive, naturally, than the same boards in the US. Every American has substantially better choices on offer. Or any Korean, for that matter. Well, South Korean I suppose!

Options only really open up when you go to three digits and can contemplate Ducky and Filco from the comprehensive webstores like The Keyboard Company. I don't know any of them in Croatia, though: so expect to be kicked in the shorts on shipping unless you can find one.

If I were you, I'd try a few used boards first, so you can make your own impression. Other people's words and videos mean nothing compared to trying it out in your own hands.

[webwit]

Three shops like that here in a 3km radius. It's gaming what did it.
http://mycom.nl/desktops-randapparatuur ... tsenborden

[Muirium]

More choice and lower prices, the usual story compared to Ripoff Britannia.

Here's Maplin's one and only:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/razer-blackwi ... oard-a92ly

Note: those are pounds. It's actually 111 Euros. And I see they don't mention the colour, let alone the name, of the switch…

[Hypersphere]

While looking for something else, I stumbled across this on US eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-AlphaSmart-Pr ... 1359563422
Six (6) Alpha Smart Pro portable word processors that can be interfaced with a PC or Mac for only $29.95 plus shipping. Looks like a rather interesting device; a fairly smart keyboard. Does anyone know what kind of switches are in these things?

[Muirium]

It's not a keyboard, it's a computer…

When connected, I open up an editor on the computer, then push the Send key on my Alphasmart. The Alphasmart delivers the document through the keyboard interface like a super fast typist.

http://www.larrydsmith.com/review_alpha_pro.html

I remember wanting something like one of these when I started seeing Psions (Britain's last computer…) and got wind of how much battery life non-backlit displays could have. These Alphasmarts look pretty low end, though, so I doubt the keyboards are nice.

You'd have to do some hacking to get actual key presses out of them like a regular external keyboard. Probably needs a new controller. And I'd be wary of limited rollover, too.

[Hypersphere]

It's not a keyboard, it's a computer…

When connected, I open up an editor on the computer, then push the Send key on my Alphasmart. The Alphasmart delivers the document through the keyboard interface like a super fast typist.

http://www.larrydsmith.com/review_alpha_pro.html

I remember wanting something like one of these when I started seeing Psions (Britain's last computer…) and got wind of how much battery life non-backlit displays could have. These Alphasmarts look pretty low end, though, so I doubt the keyboards are nice.

You'd have to do some hacking to get actual key presses out of them like a regular external keyboard. Probably needs a new controller. And I'd be wary of limited rollover, too.

Perhaps we are both right. According to the Wikipedia article on the AlphaSmart,

"AlphaSmarts can transfer data either by a special program that communicates with the AlphaSmart or by the simpler method of transmitting the keystrokes of the written text as if it were the computer's keyboard. When not transferring text, the Alphasmart can be used as a standard keyboard."

Regarding hacking the AlphaSmart, here is a fun post about reverse engineering this thing:
https://www.flickr.com/groups/alphasmar ... 493749721/

And according to the owner's manual
http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple%20II ... Manual.pdf

"When you attach your AlphaSmart to a Macintosh, the AlphaSmart changes modes and the screen displays the following message:

Attached to Macintosh, emulating keyboard.
Press Send Key to transfer file.

If you do not see this message, check your cable and make sure it is attached properly to the Macintosh.

When the AlphaSmart is attached to a Macintosh, all of the keys except the Send key behave as standard Macintosh keyboard keys. Any characters that are typed will appear on the Macintosh screen,..."

There is a similar section for the PC.

The Mac connector is ADB, but I think the PC connector is PS/2. The manual describes connector options for 180-degree DIN5 or Mini-DIN6.

[Muirium]

Indeed, that would make more sense, given the Command key's presence in the first place.

Here's someone using a later model with an iPad:
http://vimeo.com/11754480

According to the review I linked earlier, though, the "Pro" model is the worst of the bunch and purposefully misses basic features like text downloads (in addition to uploads) which are present in all other Alphasmarts. So beware!

But sure, if it works with Soarer's converter, you're sorted. And it should do if one output is AT. Make sure they're selling them with the cable! I read that these were supplied with two separate ones, for Mac and PC outputs.

[Hypersphere]

Indeed, that would make more sense, given the Command key's presence in the first place.

Here's someone using a later model with an iPad:
http://vimeo.com/11754480

According to the review I linked earlier, though, the "Pro" model is the worst of the bunch and purposefully misses basic features like text downloads (in addition to uploads) which are present in all other Alphasmarts. So beware!

But sure, if it works with Soarer's converter, you're sorted. And it should do if one output is AT. Make sure they're selling them with the cable! I read that these were supplied with two separate ones, for Mac and PC outputs.

For me, the AlphaSmart is just an interesting curiosity. And cheap -- 6 of them for $29.95.