What is the best quality feel keyswitch for a thin keyboard?
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- Main keyboard: Packard bell KB0420
- Main mouse: HP5 button optical
- Favorite switch: na
- DT Pro Member: -
Hey guys,
I am a product designer from the Netherlands, and I am currently designing a new keyboard
I want the keyboard to be as thin as possible and I want the keys to feel amazing when you type on them! (and I want to use mechanical, not capacitive)
I found a manufacturer in Germany who can produce the keyboards for me and he uses Cherry ML switches. However, I saw a video of a guy who tried the ML switches and didn't like them at all! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5nScpSnec4
I was also thinking of the Apple scissor switch keyswitches but this guy also says they are not that "tactile" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r17balD1nJc
So now I am wondering: what is the best switch for me to use? That is why I want to ask you, the experts, what you would advice me. I want the total key (switch + cap) to be as thin and have I want to have a high quality feeling.
What would be your number one choice?
I am a product designer from the Netherlands, and I am currently designing a new keyboard
I want the keyboard to be as thin as possible and I want the keys to feel amazing when you type on them! (and I want to use mechanical, not capacitive)
I found a manufacturer in Germany who can produce the keyboards for me and he uses Cherry ML switches. However, I saw a video of a guy who tried the ML switches and didn't like them at all! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5nScpSnec4
I was also thinking of the Apple scissor switch keyswitches but this guy also says they are not that "tactile" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r17balD1nJc
So now I am wondering: what is the best switch for me to use? That is why I want to ask you, the experts, what you would advice me. I want the total key (switch + cap) to be as thin and have I want to have a high quality feeling.
What would be your number one choice?
- Daniel Beardsmore
- Location: Hertfordshire, England
- Main keyboard: Filco Majestouch 1 (home)/Poker II backlit (work)
- Main mouse: MS IMO 1.1
- Favorite switch: Probably not whatever I wrote here
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
The best scissor switches I've used were those in a Dell Latitude E4310, which were exceptional. There is no guarantee that Dell didn't use multiple suppliers though. Scissor switches can be superb if you find a supplier interested in quality, who is competent in terms of design and specification, and is committed to maintaining a consistent product batch after batch. That's going to be the hard part, because scissor switches are not classed as a quality product.
It would be useful to understand more about the product. Specifically, how is it going to be used, and what is the acceptable range of thicknesses? Are you aiming for a thin look (like the Cherry G80-3850) or do you need the keyboard to physically be so many mm thick due to actual size constraints?
Quality doesn't stop at the switches. You have to give the legends serious consideration. Pad printing is subject to wear. Laser etching (white on black) is subject to staining. Dye sublimation is nice so long as you're using light coloured caps. Does it matter to you that the legends rub off or turn black? (Laser etching turns black readily — it's a lot worse than pad printing for durability in my experience.) This is an issue for us here, because we are not able to fit aftermarket keycaps to anything besides Cherry MX-compatible switches (and hopefully, soon, Alps-compatible switches).
It would be useful to understand more about the product. Specifically, how is it going to be used, and what is the acceptable range of thicknesses? Are you aiming for a thin look (like the Cherry G80-3850) or do you need the keyboard to physically be so many mm thick due to actual size constraints?
Quality doesn't stop at the switches. You have to give the legends serious consideration. Pad printing is subject to wear. Laser etching (white on black) is subject to staining. Dye sublimation is nice so long as you're using light coloured caps. Does it matter to you that the legends rub off or turn black? (Laser etching turns black readily — it's a lot worse than pad printing for durability in my experience.) This is an issue for us here, because we are not able to fit aftermarket keycaps to anything besides Cherry MX-compatible switches (and hopefully, soon, Alps-compatible switches).
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Don't worry too much about one guy reacting badly to a switch. Every switch, no matter how great, has its haters. They're all down to personal taste, really. Which is one of the Cherry MX line's greatest strengths: so many different flavours.
I'm not sure how far you could go with thinness as the overriding design goal. All the switches we keyboard afficionados like are way too deep to fit into something like Apple's modern designs. And if you sacrifice typing feel, you're stuck with Logitech etc. in a world of mediocrity we don't spend much attention to.
Perhaps the better direction is to take a solid switch (MX is by far the easiest, especially for compatibility and sourcing high end caps, which we crave as much as feel) and designing an elegant, distinctive case around that one constraint. It won't be as svelte as modern chicklet boards, but it won't suck as desperately either.
I'm not sure how far you could go with thinness as the overriding design goal. All the switches we keyboard afficionados like are way too deep to fit into something like Apple's modern designs. And if you sacrifice typing feel, you're stuck with Logitech etc. in a world of mediocrity we don't spend much attention to.
Perhaps the better direction is to take a solid switch (MX is by far the easiest, especially for compatibility and sourcing high end caps, which we crave as much as feel) and designing an elegant, distinctive case around that one constraint. It won't be as svelte as modern chicklet boards, but it won't suck as desperately either.
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- Location: Stockholm, Sweden
- DT Pro Member: 0011
I think that things to look for in a scissor switch are stability (opposite to rattle), reasonable amount of key travel and tactility.
Scissor switches can indeed be very stable, much more so than most other switches and the scissor mechanism means that they don't bind on off-centre key presses. Laptop keyboards often sacrifice key travel for thinness but desktop keyboards are often good. Tactility is about the quality of the silicone dome that needs to be pressed.
Scissor switches are not mushy on the bottom like regular rubber domes, but because of the silicone sheet of domes, the landing is distinct but soft and I think that is a good thing.
Unfortunately, scissor switch keyboards are not often very durable. I have had a silicone dome wear out and it is often that keycaps are broken so they can't be reattached. If the keycaps are printed with UV-coating, the switch will wear down easier than the printing on the keycap.
The scissor switch keyboard that felt best for me was a Logitech DiNovo Edge, which is one of several that have their "PerfectStroke" switches. These have high key travel for a scissor switch at 3.2 mm, but it doesn't need to be that high to feel good in my opinion. These are also stable, tactile and have "regular"-shaped keycaps (as opposed to chiclet). The space bar and other keys on the bottom row being relatively high and convex also made a difference.
Otherwise, the most popular scissor-switch keyboards based on feel seem to be the Logitech UltraX and the keyboards in some older ThinkPad's (before chiclet) but it is known that IBM/Lenovo used several suppliers so it is difficult to tell which version people refer to.
The Apple Aluminium desktop keyboards are light and tactile, and well liked for it. The guy in the video is probably referring to them being too light for his taste. BTW, the key travel on the Apple is 1.9 mm - personally I would like a fraction of a mm more.
I am not a fan of Cherry ML. Compared to scissor switches, it binds on off-centre key presses, it lands hard and it is has a scratchy feel. The binding-issue is why most keys larger than 1×1 are "hat caps" -- all other keys larger than 1×1 have an additional stabilising wire. I suspect that the scratchiness gets worse with exposure to dust.
BTW, you could consider designing your keyboard with a slight curved_backplane. That also makes a difference in feel, but I would say that it is a lot about personal taste. It is not objectively better.
Scissor switches can indeed be very stable, much more so than most other switches and the scissor mechanism means that they don't bind on off-centre key presses. Laptop keyboards often sacrifice key travel for thinness but desktop keyboards are often good. Tactility is about the quality of the silicone dome that needs to be pressed.
Scissor switches are not mushy on the bottom like regular rubber domes, but because of the silicone sheet of domes, the landing is distinct but soft and I think that is a good thing.
Unfortunately, scissor switch keyboards are not often very durable. I have had a silicone dome wear out and it is often that keycaps are broken so they can't be reattached. If the keycaps are printed with UV-coating, the switch will wear down easier than the printing on the keycap.
The scissor switch keyboard that felt best for me was a Logitech DiNovo Edge, which is one of several that have their "PerfectStroke" switches. These have high key travel for a scissor switch at 3.2 mm, but it doesn't need to be that high to feel good in my opinion. These are also stable, tactile and have "regular"-shaped keycaps (as opposed to chiclet). The space bar and other keys on the bottom row being relatively high and convex also made a difference.
Otherwise, the most popular scissor-switch keyboards based on feel seem to be the Logitech UltraX and the keyboards in some older ThinkPad's (before chiclet) but it is known that IBM/Lenovo used several suppliers so it is difficult to tell which version people refer to.
The Apple Aluminium desktop keyboards are light and tactile, and well liked for it. The guy in the video is probably referring to them being too light for his taste. BTW, the key travel on the Apple is 1.9 mm - personally I would like a fraction of a mm more.
I am not a fan of Cherry ML. Compared to scissor switches, it binds on off-centre key presses, it lands hard and it is has a scratchy feel. The binding-issue is why most keys larger than 1×1 are "hat caps" -- all other keys larger than 1×1 have an additional stabilising wire. I suspect that the scratchiness gets worse with exposure to dust.
BTW, you could consider designing your keyboard with a slight curved_backplane. That also makes a difference in feel, but I would say that it is a lot about personal taste. It is not objectively better.
- Hypersphere
- Location: USA
- Main keyboard: Silenced & Lubed HHKB (Black)
- Main mouse: Logitech G403
- Favorite switch: Topre 45/55g Silenced; Various Alps; IBM Model F
- DT Pro Member: 0038
There are the new magnetic levitation switches to consider if you want the ultimate in thinness.
Regarding more mainstream switches that are currently in use, I would like to see new keyboards that do not use Cherry mx switches and certainly not Cherry ml switches. In particular, I would like to see new keyboards that use the Matias tactile/cicky and/or Matias silent switch.
Regarding more mainstream switches that are currently in use, I would like to see new keyboards that do not use Cherry mx switches and certainly not Cherry ml switches. In particular, I would like to see new keyboards that use the Matias tactile/cicky and/or Matias silent switch.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Matias switches are larger than MX, unfortunately. And you're in for a world of hurt for caps.
But at least they actually exist and you can buy them. Unlike certain maglev concepts!
But at least they actually exist and you can buy them. Unlike certain maglev concepts!
- RC-1140
- Location: Germany
- Main keyboard: Unicomp Terminal Emulator
- Main mouse: Razer Mamba
- Favorite switch: Buckling Spring
- DT Pro Member: -
Granted, but I still enjoy ML switches. I don't know why, but I prefer them over most scissor switches. Yes, they do bind if you don't hit them centered. But that's just a matter of getting used to it. I've used a G84-4100 for about half a year every day. It tought me to type "cleanly", and after a short time the binding wasn't an issue anymore. But yes, it is a problem with ML switches, and I doubt most people want to buy a keyboard which requires you to type well.Findecanor wrote:I am not a fan of Cherry ML. Compared to scissor switches, it binds on off-centre key presses, it lands hard and it is has a scratchy feel. The binding-issue is why most keys larger than 1×1 are "hat caps" -- all other keys larger than 1×1 have an additional stabilising wire. I suspect that the scratchiness gets worse with exposure to dust.
- CeeSA
- Location: Westerwald, Germany
- Main keyboard: Deck 82 modded
- Main mouse: MM711
- Favorite switch: Cherry MX Blue
- DT Pro Member: 0016
- Contact:
For a scissor switch I like it most at this board:
http://www.activekeyboards.eu/Compact-K ... anguage=en
They feel very different than other scissor switches for example the thin apple keyboards.
Feels like heavy duty and have a loud sound and good feedback.
http://www.activekeyboards.eu/Compact-K ... anguage=en
They feel very different than other scissor switches for example the thin apple keyboards.
Feels like heavy duty and have a loud sound and good feedback.
- 002
- Topre Enthusiast
- Location: Australia
- Main keyboard: Realforce & Libertouch
- Main mouse: Logitech G Pro Wireless
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: 0002
I wonder what ever happened to the Synaptics capacitive switch? It was teased a few years ago but I haven't seen or heard of it since.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Most things that get announced either never ship, or fail quickly when they do. That's why I don't have high hopes for the maglev vapourware pony switch. When it's out, getting reviewed, and earning its place in the keyboard world, I will change my mind. But the odds are anyone's guess.
- vivalarevolución
- formerly prdlm2009
- Location: USA
- Main keyboard: IBM Beam spring
- Main mouse: Kangaroo
- Favorite switch: beam spring
- DT Pro Member: 0097
Would it be possible to make a low-profile Topre switch? That would be an interesting option. Not that I would buy it, but it would be interesting.
- 002
- Topre Enthusiast
- Location: Australia
- Main keyboard: Realforce & Libertouch
- Main mouse: Logitech G Pro Wireless
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: 0002
There are low-profile Topre switches, but they are pretty crappy in my opinion.
There are some pictures of the internals for them here, too.
There are some pictures of the internals for them here, too.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
What's crappy about them, specifically? And the same question for conductive Topre? I understand why they ought to be more compromised designs, but I can only guess the problem would be: reduced tactility squeezed into too short a throw, and too low activation point with a hint of rubber mush landing, respectively.
- 002
- Topre Enthusiast
- Location: Australia
- Main keyboard: Realforce & Libertouch
- Main mouse: Logitech G Pro Wireless
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: 0002
There's too much friction and I don't know if this is because the diameter of the sliders is much smaller than a standard Topre (yet still has to support a cap with the same area as a full-sized one) or the material used.
If you've had a close look at a standard Topre slider, you'll noticed it's a sort of glossy smooth and sometimes pitted appearance. This image illustrates it well I think:
The short-throw on the other hand looks like a more matte appearance and it reminds me of the sliders used for the large modifiers on Topre boards. The design of the switch housing's guides for the slider base is also quite different and could be altering the feel. This is all based on my limited use of the keyboard, as the short-throw boards are only available with whacky compact layouts that don't lend themselves well to extended use.
The conductive board isn't *too* bad. Before I opened the Sony board to discover they were not standard Topre, I actually figured they were just really aged or the board had been thrashed hard.
If you've had a close look at a standard Topre slider, you'll noticed it's a sort of glossy smooth and sometimes pitted appearance. This image illustrates it well I think:
Spoiler:
The conductive board isn't *too* bad. Before I opened the Sony board to discover they were not standard Topre, I actually figured they were just really aged or the board had been thrashed hard.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
I quite like compact layouts in general, and the ones on the wiki don't look too bad. Nothing a spot of Soarer can't fix over PS/2, perhaps. If you know any for a good price, they might be something I'd like to checkout. Topre's G84!
- 002
- Topre Enthusiast
- Location: Australia
- Main keyboard: Realforce & Libertouch
- Main mouse: Logitech G Pro Wireless
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: 0002
We're kinda going off-topic here but maybe I'll send one over for a Euro Tour if there was enough interest.
It would certainly be a lot cheaper to ship around than the Realforce.
It would certainly be a lot cheaper to ship around than the Realforce.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
I'd be up for that. I doubt too many more people would be, though, as the Realforce tour is really about aspiring to buy a top of the line keyboard of your own.
Now I start imagining having a Model F tour!
Now I start imagining having a Model F tour!
- Hypersphere
- Location: USA
- Main keyboard: Silenced & Lubed HHKB (Black)
- Main mouse: Logitech G403
- Favorite switch: Topre 45/55g Silenced; Various Alps; IBM Model F
- DT Pro Member: 0038
Very well, send us your Kishsaver, please.Muirium wrote:I'd be up for that. I doubt too many more people would be, though, as the Realforce tour is really about aspiring to buy a top of the line keyboard of your own.
Now I start imagining having a Model F tour!
- Hypersphere
- Location: USA
- Main keyboard: Silenced & Lubed HHKB (Black)
- Main mouse: Logitech G403
- Favorite switch: Topre 45/55g Silenced; Various Alps; IBM Model F
- DT Pro Member: 0038
No, no! You are the guys who are "Over There". We are here.Muirium wrote:Yeah, maybe not that one. I was thinking more like an XT. And you guys can start your own over there!
XTs are so readily available on eBay, everyone should be able to have one. Occasionally, they have a reasonable price. My current daily driver cost $51, but I got one in even better shape for $!9. It needs a bit of cleaning before sending it out on tour, however.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Believe it or not, but my Google search for sarcastic meme art of the theme "christopher columbus discovers the old world" seems to be flooded by false positives about him sailing to some other place; what a load of balls! Next up they'll try telling me he never reached India.
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- Location: CZ
- Main keyboard: Kinesis Advantage2, JIS ThinkPad,…
- Main mouse: I like (some) trackballs, e.g., L-Trac
- Favorite switch: #vintage ghost Cherry MX Black (+ thick POM caps)
- DT Pro Member: -
On topic, thinkpad keyboards were usually rated NMB > Silitek > Chicony IIRC. Chicony felt really cheap.
Anyway, my favorite scissor switches are those in TypeMatrix 2030—by far. Fairly long travel, not too sharp tactile feedback, quiet thock-like sound. I only wish the keycaps were sweat-resistent.
Anyway, my favorite scissor switches are those in TypeMatrix 2030—by far. Fairly long travel, not too sharp tactile feedback, quiet thock-like sound. I only wish the keycaps were sweat-resistent.
- bhtooefr
- Location: Newark, OH, USA
- Main keyboard: TEX Shinobi
- Main mouse: TrackPoint IV
- Favorite switch: IBM Selectric (not a switch, I know)
- DT Pro Member: 0056
- Contact:
For a Model F tour, I'd use a 5155 keyboard, to be honest, simply to reduce shipping costs.
On-topic, if you don't mind having your own switch manufactured, there's always this beast, a scissor-stabilized transverse buckling spring: https://www.google.com/patents/US5268545
On-topic, if you don't mind having your own switch manufactured, there's always this beast, a scissor-stabilized transverse buckling spring: https://www.google.com/patents/US5268545
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- Main keyboard: Packard bell KB0420
- Main mouse: HP5 button optical
- Favorite switch: na
- DT Pro Member: -
Hey guys, sorry it took so long for me to react! Thanks for all your comments. Also your additional comments about legends Daniel Beardsmore
The reason why I am looking for a keyswitch that is as thin as possible is because the keyboard will be very small so the battery/PCB and buttons will be stacked on top of each other.
After reading your comments I am not that confident about Cherry ML... I will ask the producer to send some over so I can have a feel of them. I saw somebody advice XL, I will also ask for these although I am afraid that the height will be a no go.
About scissor switches, after some additional research I might have the idea that it is not realistic for our product. We are going to launch it on kickstarter and aim on a first production batch of about 2.000-5.000 pieces and scissor switches have to be integrated in a large production scale for it to be viable.
If anyone has a good suggestion for an off the shelve keyswitch which I could propose to the producer instead of the Cherry ML that would be great!
The reason why I am looking for a keyswitch that is as thin as possible is because the keyboard will be very small so the battery/PCB and buttons will be stacked on top of each other.
After reading your comments I am not that confident about Cherry ML... I will ask the producer to send some over so I can have a feel of them. I saw somebody advice XL, I will also ask for these although I am afraid that the height will be a no go.
About scissor switches, after some additional research I might have the idea that it is not realistic for our product. We are going to launch it on kickstarter and aim on a first production batch of about 2.000-5.000 pieces and scissor switches have to be integrated in a large production scale for it to be viable.
If anyone has a good suggestion for an off the shelve keyswitch which I could propose to the producer instead of the Cherry ML that would be great!
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- Main keyboard: Packard bell KB0420
- Main mouse: HP5 button optical
- Favorite switch: na
- DT Pro Member: -
Maybe I should give them a call then
- bhtooefr
- Location: Newark, OH, USA
- Main keyboard: TEX Shinobi
- Main mouse: TrackPoint IV
- Favorite switch: IBM Selectric (not a switch, I know)
- DT Pro Member: 0056
- Contact:
Get a Cherry ML-4100, may also be known as a G84-4100. That's a whole keyboard+caps for ML switches at 18 mm pitch.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
Yes. Much better to judge a switch when it's in a board and you can type on it, rather than just loose in your hand. Grab a G84.
The other Cherry switch mentioned was MX. You're on a better route to attention and success with that one, if you can design something smart around it. MX essentially owns "mechanical" these days. Going with anything else will be an uphill slope.
The other Cherry switch mentioned was MX. You're on a better route to attention and success with that one, if you can design something smart around it. MX essentially owns "mechanical" these days. Going with anything else will be an uphill slope.
- Evilcamels
- Location: Washington, USA
- Main keyboard: Model F XT
- Main mouse: Zowie EC1 eVo
- Favorite switch: Space Invaders
- DT Pro Member: -
It is too bad Space Invaders are no longer manufactured. Best 'low profile' switches ever made in my opinion. Cherry ML are the best option if you need low profile and tactile response, unfortunately they don't have MX stems like MY and aren't very popular