Planning thread for an 18 mm pitch Matias 60%

[bhtooefr]

In this thread, there will be lots of rambling about minutiae.

Goal here is to make a 60% that's nice to type on, while being as compact in every dimension as possible. The typing area for a 14.5 x 5 U layout will be 261 mm wide, 90 mm tall. Compare to a 19 mm pitch keyboard with a similar layout (such as Apple's early ANSI-layout keyboards), at 275.5 x 95 mm, or a standard 19 mm pitch 60% at 285 x 95 mm.

Matias switches are planned. Cherry actually won't even work in this application, AFAIK. Not that I'd use Cherry anyway.



This is the current state of the layout. ISO enter is not practical, but ISO can be done by truncating left shift. JIS will be... less practical, but still doable - not with Bluetooth, though, as I'm thinking a lot of stuff can go under the spacebar on ANSI and ISO, that there won't be room for with JIS.

The mods are the way they are to reduce the number of tools required.

Keycaps needed:

51x 1 U
2x 1 U with either homing bump or deep dish (may make that 3x, and remove one from the standards, for an arrow key, like Apple used to do)
4x 1.5 U (BkSp, Tab, Fn, Alt)
2x 1.75 U (Ctrl, Enter)
2x 2.25 U (both Shifts)
1x 5.5 U convex (space)

The state of injection molding is such that it may actually be practical to do the injection molding for ABS single-shots (no legends for the prototype(s)) myself.

For minimum thickness, a 2-layer PCB will be needed, due to top-mounting the microcontroller. However, if the microcontroller is sufficiently thin, bottom-mounting may make sense.

If the switches are rotated, so the long dimension is vertical, not horizontal, there's about 9.7 mm width between the switches for =/+ and Backspace, enough room to slip a USB Micro-B connector in. TE's got one that's 7.5 mm wide (at least where it counts, the flange is wider, but at the flange, it can be as wide as it wants to be), although that is upside down as far as USB compliance is considered. Whoop de doo.

[bhtooefr]

Ixnay on top-mounting the MCU. Pins on the Matias switch are 4 mm long, so if the PCB is 2.9 mm thick or less (which would be ridiculously thick), a TQFP ATMega32U4 will not make it any thicker. If the PCB is 3.1 mm thick or less, a VQFP 32U4 will still not make it any thicker.

I'm finding 1.6 mm for OSHPark's PCBs, which still leaves 2.4 mm. That's almost enough room to put the USB connector on the UNDERSIDE (although it would then need to be a SMT USB connector for a one-sided design to work).

[Muirium]

I like what you're thinking. Plate mount or will the PCB be enough? And what are you using to make your own custom caps? That could be very appealing to we wannabe Matias custom builders! I've got a couple of decent sets of Alps caps, but they're never quite the right layout. In fact they're ISO and Big Ass Return!

[bhtooefr]

Definitely plate mount.

And, the idea for the custom caps (I haven't fully looked into the mold costs) is this: http://www.techkits.com/model_150/home.html plus getting a machine shop to CNC molds (which is why the mods are 1.5 U, not 1.25 U, and part of why everything will be a single profile - reduces the number of molds required significantly), and shooting one shot of ABS (easier than PBT or POM, as I understand), with no legends.

Check these specs out:

Shot Capacity: 1.25 cu. inch by volume (or 21 grams by weight)
Maximum Mold Size (outside dimensions): 8.0" W x 5.0" H x 5.0" D

So, I'm thinking only one thick spacebar per mold, but it can reasonably do everything, and shoot multiple caps in one mold.

[lowpoly]

And, the idea for the custom caps (I haven't fully looked into the mold costs) is this: http://www.techkits.com/model_150/home.html

Awesome. I want one.

If you do your own caps you should split the spacebar.

[Muirium]

Absolutely. PBT space bars curve up like a banana when cooled. Large caps are a lot of pain for no real gain. Small space bars are what we want! Especially when you can play with layers, using them as combo mods and the like.

[bhtooefr]

Honestly, given that I'd go ABS for simplicity, I'd probably be fine with a long spacebar.

And, adding a bunch of mods to the bottom row... ehh... I mean, it'd be needed for a Japanese layout, but ehh. Not my cup of tea. (Actually, looking at Japanese layout, I see another problem - how heavily used is the alphanumeric key? If it is heavily used, then my layout would have to be revamped to support it.)

If I did a Japanese layout, I'd probably want to add a 1.25 U mold, and move all the mods to it. Even then, though, with Fn, left Alt, non-conversion, and conversion at 1.25 U, and Windows, hiragana/katakana, AltGr, and the arrows at 1 U... that leaves 2.5 U for the spacebar, without even pulling Ctrl into the bottom row to make room for alphanumeric/Caps Lock.

Edit: Not a fully JIS layout, the goal here was to get the bottom row right. This is modeled after the ThinkPad T60 Japanese bottom row, and there's now a real Caps Lock key:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... 8431799567

[Muirium]

Well, all right, 5.5 is already a nice fairly small space bar!

Modern PBT ones are a bit bendy for my liking, but at 5.5u even they would be acceptable. It's the edges where the bend is apparent: the effect is nonlinear.

[bhtooefr]

Just updated with a JIS layout with a 2.25 U spacebar. The ThinkPad I modeled it after is actually 2.5 U, but uses .75 U Alt and Menu on the right, I don't get that luxury of making AltGr .75 U at 18 mm pitch.

Edit: And... now that I'm opening myself up to a 1.25 U mold, which I actually need for ISO left or JIS right shift anyway... let's go back to ANSI with a dedicated Caps Lock, and a 5 U spacebar:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... 1da304f6ab


Obviously, if you so desire, that gives an extra mod in the bottom row to remap at will, if you want to go back to the old Fn+both shifts=caps lock idea.

[bhtooefr]

Also, an idea that was given to me... If the user were to map more things to the Fn layer (of course it'll be programmable), an Fn lock could come in handy.

Now that I've freed Caps Lock out of the Fn layer, I'm thinking maybe the Fn+both shifts combo could be handy for that?

[Muirium]

Indeed it would!

Here's my (ubiquitous on DT…) 60% custom from last year:



I had Caps Lock as a second Fn key at first, then upgraded it to a latching MXLOCK when I came by some of those. It's pretty useful, but not fantastically so. In fact, I think a software Fn layer lock is more useful than a hardware one now, having experienced it.

For actual CAPS LOCK, I just press both Shifts (no other keys required) and that is toggled. This works so perfectly for the few occasions I want it, that I demand it from every programmable board, right out the box.

So far, I've only used Soarer's Controller, which doesn't support layer locks. But they're definitely a good idea. And even a fair excuse for a handful of LEDs as indicators, such as behind the number row. 10 layers maximum ought to be enough!

[bhtooefr]

Fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuu. I've just realized a problem with using 14.5 U for an OADG 109A-derived layout.

OADG 109A uses a 1 U backspace to cram another key in. So, for OADG compatibility, 15 U is a must. (I'm not shrinking keys in that top row.)

So, screw it, OADG compatibility becomes a non-concern. ISO on 14.5 U is still doable with the ANSI enter setup, mind you, and if there's sudden demand for this in an OADG layout, a 15 U wide variant could be done (and also cover a "fully ISO" implementation).

[Hypersphere]

It is great that you are using Matias switches. Are they the tactile+clicky variety or the silenced version?

[bhtooefr]

I haven't decided yet, I'm just planning at this point.

Considering that I'd probably use this keyboard in mixed company, though... while I get away with a buckling spring at work somehow, I should probably stick with the quiet switches.

[Hypersphere]

I haven't decided yet, I'm just planning at this point.

Considering that I'd probably use this keyboard in mixed company, though... while I get away with a buckling spring at work somehow, I should probably stick with the quiet switches.

Some people say that they prefer the feel of the Matias tactile/click switches over the silenced ones. I have only tried the tactile/click variety and I liked them, but they are indeed noisy. However, my current favorite switch is the IBM capacitive buckling spring, which renders me inured to noise (when it is of my own making, of course).

[bhtooefr]

Just an update that I definitely won't be using the quiet switches, got a chance to try them.

Oh dear god they're mushtastic and horrible. Like I'd rather use a rubber dome. Like I'd rather use Topre, and I hate Topre even more than Cherry MX.

[Medowy]

I want one of these

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I'm curious now about a keyboard of the little yellow Mitsumi switches: 4.5 mm travel and very tactile, yet in a really tiny switch.

[Muirium]

Well, if 7bit happens by a box of them someday…

Just an update that I definitely won't be using the quiet switches, got a chance to try them.

Oh dear god they're mushtastic and horrible. Like I'd rather use a rubber dome. Like I'd rather use Topre, and I hate Topre even more than Cherry MX.

What's the bit you hate? The damping maybe? I like quiet Matias' soft landing, and especially the similar effect at the top. They're a good bit like damped Alps, and the only switch besides silenced Topre to offer such a thing today. I'm still tempted to try a hybrid Matias: clicky with damping. (Once I finally pick up more switches.) But I suspect that's not for you!

Of course, you could always go linear by modding Matias switches. Or is that even further in the wrong direction?

[DerpyDash_xAD]

We should add a section to the profile for detailed info as to keyswitch preference.

[bhtooefr]

The problem I had wasn't with the damping, it was with the tactile leaf itself feeling mushy. Hybrid Matias, using the Quiet damped sliders with the Click click leaf might actually feel fine, although I'm not sure how much good it would do.

[Mal-2]

The problem I had wasn't with the damping, it was with the tactile leaf itself feeling mushy. Hybrid Matias, using the Quiet damped sliders with the Click click leaf might actually feel fine, although I'm not sure how much good it would do.

(sorry for necroposting, I wasn't signed up when this was live)

The switches Razer uses in their "stealth" models might bear a look as well. I think they're 50g switches, tactile, and not clicky. They compare them to Cherry Browns, but smoother. (Me, I like clicky.) You may not be able to get naked switches though, as they're apparently for Razer's own use -- but who knows? They're MX mount at any rate, so easy to match with keys.

[bhtooefr]

They're not Razer's own switches, they're Kailh switches, no matter how much Razer pretends they designed them. In any case, noooooooope. Not for me.

[Hypersphere]

The problem I had wasn't with the damping, it was with the tactile leaf itself feeling mushy. Hybrid Matias, using the Quiet damped sliders with the Click click leaf might actually feel fine, although I'm not sure how much good it would do.

I've been rotating through 60% keyboards. At the moment, I am typing on a KBP V60MTS-Quiet keyboard. The tactile feedback itself seems just as pronounced on the Matias Quiet switches as it does in the Matias Click switches in my KBP V60MTS-Click keyboard. To me, the tactility per se of each switch is crisp and not mushy. However, when typing at speed, with the corresponding auditory feedback greatly attenuated in the Matias Quiet switches, it gives the impression of a less crisp tactile feedback, but I think this can be an illusion. I tend to prefer the Matias Click switches because they give the impression of better/more tactility, but I think this comes from the sensory reinforcement of sound added to tactile feedback.

Of course, when it comes to switch preferences, what matters in the end is the overall impression the switch makes on the user. I prefer the combined effect of auditory and tactile feedback, and so I tend to prefer the Matias Click to the Matias silent switch. Likewise, I prefer the standard HHKB Pro 2 to the Type-S HHKB Pro 2. However, if I need to use a quiet keyboard to avoid disturbing others, either of these quiet keyboards will do a fine job.

[Mal-2]

They're not Razer's own switches, they're Kailh switches, no matter how much Razer pretends they designed them. In any case, noooooooope. Not for me.

That's actually good news. I know I can get Kailh switches should I have any problems.

[jacobolus]

Have you actually talked to anyone about making your tooling? Do you have a budget, and any particular goals for how many copies you want to make? Steel tooling is crazy expensive.