SKCM black tactile leaf removal

klikkyklik · 03 Feb 2015, 05:36

Hello there,

I have a spare Dell AT101W with Alps SKCM black keyswitches. I've removed the tactile leaf from one of the keys and I do prefer the new linear action over the tactile.

Question - would removing the tactile leaf make these switches similar (or identical) to any other Alps keyswitch, like a green? Unfortunately there are a lot of missing force specifications for the Alps keyswitches in the Wiki, so I'm not sure what I'd be ending up with by removing the tactile leafs - an exact clone of another Alps keyswitch or something unique.

Thank you kindly for your input.

jacobolus · 03 Feb 2015, 07:59

SKCM black minus tactile leaf should be pretty similar to SKCM yellow. I’m not sure if the springs are quite identical though.

andrewjoy · 03 Feb 2015, 10:25

They are fully liner and very smooth when you remove the leaf, i have never had the fortune to try any liner alps so i cannot say on weight but i would say close to mx red

klikkyklik · 03 Feb 2015, 14:44

Thank you for your responses so far.

Jacobolus, I am to understand you mean SKCL Yellow (there was no SKCM, correct?). Were greens heavier than yellows, or about the same? I see the Yellows are listed at 0.588N in the Wiki, and that greens were considered smoother versions.

Andrew, they are indeed very smooth. Considering that I have a board right here with MX reds, I figured I would do a coin test. I used that as a "verification" of sorts that the measurements were coming close, anyway. These were my measurements:

MX red: 45g
Black Alps with leaf: 68g to actuate past tactile bump
Black Alps without leaf: to actuate switch: 51g. To bottom out: 63g.

These numbers should be taken with a grain of salt of course because they are not super precise.

I guess another way to ask my question is: considering that the Alps black and yellow keyswitches were produced in the same period of time, are Alps yellow switches just leafless blacks, or is there more to the story? Considering that the yellow are SKCL and the blacks are SKCM, I'm led to believe that there is indeed more to the story, that their internal construction is different somehow, and therefore a leafless black can be considered a unique Alps switch variant in the respect that there are no other Alps switches that exhibit the exact same feel/force/behavior.

Thoughts?

Daniel Beardsmore · 03 Feb 2015, 21:09

SKCM just meant tactile; SKCL is linear. SKCL/SKCM is all the same family, but Alps decided to separate them out based on whether they were tactile or not. SKCL covers linear with LED recess, latching, and double-action — none of these have room for a tactile or click leaf. If it's got a tactile or click leaf instead, it's SKCM. The switch contacts go on the one side of the slider, and the goodies go on the other.

Green vs yellow is debatable, but my own brief test fitted the overall pattern that green was lighter by a small margin. Grey is supposed to be significantly heavier than yellow, yet from actual tests, it seems to come out only marginally heavier than yellow.

The story is more complicated because the switches did change characteristics over time, and no-one's quite sure how. Dry lubrication stopped, and other cost-saving measures were introduced. It's like modern vs vintage Cherry MX black: some people argue that it's a real difference, but no-one can prove it or explain what's changed and quantify it. Blue vs white Alps is the same, as I imagine is old ("pine") black Alps (e.g NeXT, Alps) vs newer ("bamboo") black Alps (e.g. Silitek-made Dell AT101W) — something changed, but we don't know what.

Yellow Alps ran for years, although from the datasheet I have, they never went to bamboo. Bamboo seemed to involve part number changes, and yellow Alps remained an 'A' part number (instead of a 'Q' part number) and retained its slits. I guess there was no call to redo all the linear moulds. Whether there were other changes in line with the black Alps switches in the AT101W, I don't know.

jacobolus · 03 Feb 2015, 22:16

klikkyklik wrote: Jacobolus, I am to understand you mean SKCL Yellow (there was no SKCM, correct?). Were greens heavier than yellows, or about the same? I see the Yellows are listed at 0.588N in the Wiki, and that greens were considered smoother versions.

Sorry, yes, I mean SKCL.

One curiosity is that I’ve found the yellow SKCL switches I’ve tried to be stiffer than the green SKCL switches, but I saw one report of someone who claimed to have yellow switches which were lighter than green switches. I’m still a bit suspicious, but I suppose anything’s possible.

I guess another way to ask my question is: considering that the Alps black and yellow keyswitches were produced in the same period of time, are Alps yellow switches just leafless blacks, or is there more to the story? Considering that the yellow are SKCL and the blacks are SKCM, I'm led to believe that there is indeed more to the story, that their internal construction is different somehow, and therefore a leafless black can be considered a unique Alps switch variant in the respect that there are no other Alps switches that exhibit the exact same feel/force/behavior.

I really need to measure some springs before I can fully answer this. It’s possible the springs are different between yellow and black switches. It’s also possible the spring stiffness varied from year to year within the same type of switch.

The main difference internally between SKCL and SKCM is that one has a space for an LED inside the housing, whereas the other has a tactile/click leaf there, as Daniel explained.

Daniel Beardsmore · 03 Feb 2015, 23:40

There are non-LED SKCL switches, including [wiki]Alps SKCL Double Action[/wiki] (SKCLKB) of which Daemon Raccoon is the only person known to have one. Amazingly enough it was still covered in the Alps catalogue in 1994, despite surely being beyond obsolete by then. I'm still not clear how it works — hopefully one day she will make good on her promise to document it.

The latching switch SKCLJC is also included.

(Bamboo has "C" codes, I think, not "Q")

jacobolus · 04 Feb 2015, 00:59

Daniel Beardsmore wrote: There are non-LED SKCL switches, including [wiki]Alps SKCL Double Action[/wiki] (SKCLKB) of which Daemon Raccoon is the only person known to have one.

I have some of these, as does HaaTa. He has pictures up on Flickr somewhere I believe. Edit: I just asked him and maybe he doesn’t have pics up.

FWIW, these are a real pain in the ass to take apart and put back together correctly.

Daniel Beardsmore · 04 Feb 2015, 01:27

News to me in both cases (I had no idea that anyone else had any).

klikkyklik · 04 Feb 2015, 23:33

Just this morning I finished converting one of my Dell AT101W's with black Alps to leafless - just the main alphanumeric group of keyswitches. The verdict is still out; I just need some more time with it.

https://klikkyklik.wordpress.com/2015/0 ... less-alps/

Definitely a fun experiment, but would still be interesting to someday compare how it feels to Alps green/yellow, which I currently don't have access to.